Okay, I have started a new SR group with some pretty experienced gamers all 15 + years, ranging from D&D to several other gaming systems. We have recently begun playing SR and i have decided to GM for them! My experince was rather limited in SR, I was only a player and i stuck to mostly street sams and never dealt with magic; and this was mostly played from SR second ed since the current GM has some disdain for change!

Anyway, here is my situation. I have a player who wishes to use Clairaudience and/or Clairvoyance in a room of a building in which he cannot see into! He argues that he should be able to or the spell is just useless and other gamers argue that D&D allows you too so it only makes sense that SR3 would as well!

My feelings: The Shadow Run Gaming System runs magic in it's own way, primarily it relies on 2 things, line of sight and presence on same plane! I feel this spell is useful in other ways than this current situation.

For example: A PC is in a bar approx. 12 meters away from a small group he is spying on, there is loud music and light smoke obviously the chances of the PC picking up any of the conversation is slim to none. So he casts Clairaudience(4) and uses the middle of the booth in which his targets are sitting as his reference point. His Sorcery is 6 multiplied by 4 gives him a range of 24 meters! So he makes the propers rolls and now he can listen as if he is sitting at the booth while across the room at another table just looking as if he is concentrating and staring in their direction!

I read through all the detection spells and feel that having a "point of reference" that the PC can see satisfies the LOS. It is from the point that all ranges and rolls are made, this is how i feel LOS applies to detection spells.

What do you think? 1) Should the PC be able to cast clairaudience in a room/building he cannot even see into?

** note book not next to me**

I would say no, he can't look into a building, and say "cast into kitchen" (hows he even know there IS a kitchen?)

However, time permitting, (and if this is possible by the rules, which i would think it would be) i would let them do some legwork at some other time, let them get into the building if then can, cast the spell, and then sustain it until they've heard whatever they think they can from outside the building.

edit: the only thing i'm not sure of is if there is a range that the caster would have to stay within to keep the spell sustained, i dont think there is. the range is only for how far the spell will work at picking things up. but that i think would be the only caveat to this idea.

First of all, LOS only applies when you are considering the targeting of a spell. Detection spells are all touch range spells except where noted, and the target of the spell is the person receiving the new sense. Clairvoyance and Clairaudience both allow you to see into places that you normally would not have line of sight into. They are both stopped by Astral Barriers (wards). You cannot cast a spell using LOS gained from the Clairvoyance spell. The range of both Clairvoyance and Clairaudience is Magic Rating times Force of the spell in meters. Extended versions can be used (learned as a separate spell) which extends this to Magic Rating times Force times 10 and adds a level to the drain code (from M to S, for example).

He can see into the building. He does not need LOS, because detection spells generally don't need it (though the chance to detect deminishes).

JaronK

Keep in mind though that even Clairvoyance/Clairaudiance is resisted (God alone knows why or how, but if you're looking to screw over your players here's how to do it using the RAW.) Since the Force of the Clairaudiance spell is 4, and the TN your sorcerer cast against is 6 even an Int 3 NPC probably has about an even chance of resisting the spell completely, meaning he isn't heard/seen.

Personally I find this to be a stupid rule, and would house-rule detection spells that grant physically analogous senses like Clairvoyance/audiance to not be resisted, for the same reasons Combat Sense isn't resisted. YMMV though.

Thanks all for your input! I had missed that the Clairaudience and Clairvoyance spells were by touch, that helps out a lot! Basically, to visualize the spell in my mind the PC casts the spell with Sorcery 6 Force 4 the range is 24 meters, base spell. So he could see on the other side of the wall as if he were there physically, up to 24 meters in range, and see what is happening as long as the targets did not resist against the spell, he sees them and their actions.

This makes more sense to me now that it has been explained, thanks again all!

I'd suggest looking at the Detection Spell Table on SR3.192 to help get an idea of the effectiveness of detection spells. Someone said an astral barrier (ward) would stop the spell. This may be true in practice because of the higher TNs, but it isn't precluded by the rules.

As also pointed out, the average guard may not be able to resist when the casters TN is 4, but raising the TN usually cuts down on successes, and the number of successes determine the quality of the information gained.

Er, not really. The table does not apply to Clairvoyance/audiance, as they have a static target number. In fact, they also don't have anything referring you to the table for results either; it's an all-or-nothing spell. This is as it should be; it's not really possible to only see half a room.

Heh. None of us are really painting a complete picture here, are we? But it's all working out in the end.

Detection spells are still weird though, and after the FAQ answers they suck even more. Yet even after I'm trying to base a character concept on detection spells and the information they provide; how dumb am I?