...I'm not even drunk, so I have no excuse for that title.
The muscle replacement description suggests that not only do your muscles get replaced, but your bones are made stronger through, forgive me if I'm wrong, calcium treatment. I assume that the replacement muscle is somewhat denser than normal muscle as well.
Now, doesn't that seem to be two huge reasons for that cyberware to give a body bonus? I mean, your bones are stronger, which is more or less what bone-lacing is supposed to do, and your body has greater mass, if not volume, which is pretty much what the Body attribute is about. Obviously nobody should add an additional bonus just because that's what would happen in reality, but I'm interested as to what the other board members think of this idea of muscle replacement giving an extra bonus.
Full Version: Bonus to Body?
You know me, no canon, no way. But as a house rule, I'd say it is a little too strong.
It affects strength and quickness already. The treatment of the skeletal structure is so that the improved muscle has a platform from which to operate (you can get a cyber arm that can lift two hundred kilograms, but if your shoulder can only support 150 KG of weight, you're going to have a signifigant problem). I don't see any point in it to increase body as well.
Just increase the price and essence loss by the same amount for a comparable number of levels in Dermal Plating, and knock yourself out. 
Body is kind of like a catch all for your overall health and toughness. Athletes that crank up the roids tend to break down easier than athletes that don't use the juice. Having more muscle mass doesn't make you any tougher than if you aren't a roid monster. Muscle replacement replaces the muscles that give you that burst of power and speed. You can be in great shape with well toned muscles and still not be "powerful" IE: High body, low strength. Don't give in to the temptation, there are pretty cheap ways to get that body boost (plastic bone lacing, dermal sheath 1, gives you a +3 body together for resisting damage)
I wasn't really considering actually giving it a body bonus, but I just thought it was an interesting idea.
TeOdio, how exactly does having an excellent level of overall health reduce the damage from getting hit. It doesn't really, does it? IMO, while body does kind of incorperate your immune system, it's really muscle mass that allows you to deflect harm. But then it doesn't really matter how reality works, because this is a game we're talking about.
In any case, I was just throwing around ideas.
TeOdio, how exactly does having an excellent level of overall health reduce the damage from getting hit. It doesn't really, does it? IMO, while body does kind of incorperate your immune system, it's really muscle mass that allows you to deflect harm. But then it doesn't really matter how reality works, because this is a game we're talking about.
In any case, I was just throwing around ideas.
I'd say a better overall level of health lets you recover faster and lets you deal better with the shock of being hurt significantly. Hence better body. And I'd say the body bonus is a little to good for the price.
| QUOTE (Prospero) |
| I'd say a better overall level of health lets you recover faster and lets you deal better with the shock of being hurt significantly. Hence better body. And I'd say the body bonus is a little to good for the price. |
I don't know.. I always thought muscle replacement was rather on the 'lousy' end of the scale.
Sure, it's strength and quickness.. but, the quickness doesn't affect anything. No combat pool, no reaction, which is the major reason to improve quickness in the first place.
As far as I know, Muscle Replacement does affect Combat Pool. It doesn't factor into Reaction, but it does affect the cost of skills linked to both Strength and Quickness.
hmm. Muscle replacement . . . I'd have to say it's not really worth it. For the full increase it's 4 points of essence at standard grade, which is still 2 at delta grade. I'd rather get the bioware increases, they add to reaction and combat pool, and are much more system-friendly. Sure you have to pay through the nose, but comparatively, the boost is worth it for the price, even if you get them cultured. Muscle replacement is, well, not.
I'd rather go the Bio route as well. I don't really know anyone that wouldn't.
Can you give me a page reference for Muscle Replacement not affecting Combat Pool? It doesn't say anything about it in the BBB, only mentioning that it doesn't affect Reaction, and I can't find any relevant reference in M&M either.
Can you give me a page reference for Muscle Replacement not affecting Combat Pool? It doesn't say anything about it in the BBB, only mentioning that it doesn't affect Reaction, and I can't find any relevant reference in M&M either.
Well, the thing about Muscle Replacement (cyber) is that it does not cap at Maximum Racial Modified limit like Bio does. So a human could have Str and Quickness 10 with the cyber, but only 9 with the bio. Weak advantage, I know, but that's still something.
As for the original idea, I also think giving a Body bonus as well is too much for 1 piece of cyber.
Further, I am also of the opinion "general level oh health" goes into body. Someone with a good, strong heart will not bleed to death as quickly as someone with a body 2 wage-slave-in-front-of-the-trid heart, and so can function better with less blood... well, sorta. Anyway it's pretty abstract, but I factor it in. I do give a +1 Body bonus for sythacardium (since it's mostly useless otherwise anyway)
As for the original idea, I also think giving a Body bonus as well is too much for 1 piece of cyber.
Further, I am also of the opinion "general level oh health" goes into body. Someone with a good, strong heart will not bleed to death as quickly as someone with a body 2 wage-slave-in-front-of-the-trid heart, and so can function better with less blood... well, sorta. Anyway it's pretty abstract, but I factor it in. I do give a +1 Body bonus for sythacardium (since it's mostly useless otherwise anyway)
I treat it as affecting combat pool, and I like it for the running speed. It's an easy way to get a inexpensive strength and quickness boost, as long as you have the essence to burn...
if you want to let it boost bod then up the price about 100k. 
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| I'd rather go the Bio route as well. I don't really know anyone that wouldn't. Can you give me a page reference for Muscle Replacement not affecting Combat Pool? It doesn't say anything about it in the BBB, only mentioning that it doesn't affect Reaction, and I can't find any relevant reference in M&M either. |
My mistake.. I think I read into it that it doesn't affect combat pool, because I can't see any reason why it should affect one and not the other.
| QUOTE (Tziluthi) |
| I wasn't really considering actually giving it a body bonus, but I just thought it was an interesting idea. TeOdio, how exactly does having an excellent level of overall health reduce the damage from getting hit. It doesn't really, does it? IMO, while body does kind of incorperate your immune system, it's really muscle mass that allows you to deflect harm. But then it doesn't really matter how reality works, because this is a game we're talking about. In any case, I was just throwing around ideas. |
Watch boxing. The guy that wins is usually the better conditioned, not necessarily the stronger guy. Body relates to everything from shrugging off damage to fighting off a cold. Muscle does not blunt impact like you think it does. Besides, using Body for resisting damage is pure game mechanic. Even a world class athlete couldn't shrug off a bullet wound to the chest. You can interpret the BOdy roll by many ways. BIg ass troll, just didn't hurt as much. Well conditioned soldier, keeps moving enough that the bullet just grazes his armor. Athletics is tied to body as well, and that covers a whole bunch of strenuous activities. If you think that Strength and Body are so interrelated (and I could see arguments to that effect and against it), you could house rule a new attribute that combines the two into 1. It would take a lot of work, but there are only a few skills related to Body anyway. Just a thought.
muscle replacement is one of the less useful pieces of 'ware out there, if you look at it and look at muscle toner/aug. for a huge chunk of your essence, you get a Qui increase that doesn't affect your Rea, and Str and Qui increases that don't help you with karma costs for skills (SR3 page 244: "Since skills are linked to Attributes cost to improve them are based on... the linked natural Attribute rating..."). you do get improved running speed, a heavier punch, and more combat pool.
but you can get all that and increased Rea and lower karma costs for linked skills and less impact on your body (and especially your magic, if you have that) for only 25k more per level and a slightly higher wait time.
but you can get all that and increased Rea and lower karma costs for linked skills and less impact on your body (and especially your magic, if you have that) for only 25k more per level and a slightly higher wait time.
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