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wagnern
Just a quick question.

Now I know about nothing about martial arts (you wear white pajamas and say he ya) so I am having a tough time picking one out for my first Sam. We are not usung the CC expandid combat rules, but for flavor's sake I do want an actual martal art.

Now she is a pacifist so it needs to be less lethal, but good at subduing someone. She is a soft sam (Bioware only) and while kinda small she is quite strong and fast. Armed in melee, she uses a staff. (I think some martial arts favor some weapons over others so this may help)

Any suggestions.
Smiley
If you're not using the CC expanded combat rules, how can you have a martial art?
Aes
Aikido is a good choice, even if only for flavour. Primarely a defensive form of martial art that specializes in using the agressors momentum to toss him elsewhere.
LinaInverse
Smiley, he said he was wanting it for flavor's sake.

I could be wrong, but isn't Judo built on redirecting your opponent's momentum as well?
rozark69
Kungfu but Jeetkundo (spelling sorry) is a defensive counter striking martial art and can be used with polearms I believe.she sounds fun.
Wounded Ronin
Firstly, I will say that I don't like the official CC advanced melee rules, so what I proceed to say next won't have anything to do with game mechanics, but rather only with flavor and in characterness.

This is the way I see it. Even if the character is a pacifist, that dosen't mean that he or she wouldn't necessarily want to hand out a good savage beating from time to time. For example, it's very possible to beat someone up but not kill them. Therefore, I wouldn't necessarily rule out something that is known for hard beatings such as kyokushin karate or muay thai or boxing.

Aikido would certainly be the cliche art, and there'd be no problem with taking that. However, in the interests of giving you a different point of view, I'd argue that perhaps Aikido isn't combative enough for a combat specialist as opposed to a civilian. Yes, it involves redirection, but what do you do when a boxer, who knows how not to overcommit to a punch, wants to beat the crap out of you? It would be very hard to change a jab into an armlock or wristlock. Furthermore, there are some Aikidoka who claim that the original Aikido as developed by Morehei is actually more combative than your garden variety Aikido seen today: http://martialarts.about.com/od/styles/a/IsAikido1.htm
http://martialarts.about.com/od/styles/a/IsAikido2.htm
http://martialarts.about.com/od/styles/a/IsAikido3.htm


So, what are some other possibilities for the character? Well, another steroytpical choice for the pacifist could be Chin Na. Chin Na is basically like a really really intricate small detail version of small circle jujitsu, except that it also operates on principles of organ compression (i.e. the chin na liver grab) and chi meridian work. The theory is basically to suppress someone not only through painful small locks but also by temporarily sapping their strength, i.e. by squeezing their liver until they want to puke. However, I'd say the big problem with Chin Na is that a lot of the movements are very refined and could be hard to use in a combat situation where gross motor movements tend to take over. Nevertheless, it could be a fun in character shtick.


I suppose you could always go with classical jujitsu, for that military combatives feel. Here is a US Army jujitsu manual from 1920: http://hephaistos.dtd.umr.edu:8080/upload/...f%20Defense.pdf

Basically, jujitsu is all about breaking joints. Classical jujitsu is generally about breaking major joints and so is mechanically easier to go about than either Chin Na or so-called "small circle jujitsu".

Then there's Brazilian jujitsu, which is very refined in the area of groundfighting.

Either way, these arts could be construed as pacifistic because snapping someone's limbs to disable him is not the same thing as killing him.



And finally, you could just take boxing or muay thai or something. A hard punch to the head, while arguably violent on some level, really isn't inherently a lethal attack.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (LinaInverse)
Smiley, he said he was wanting it for flavor's sake.

I could be wrong, but isn't Judo built on redirecting your opponent's momentum as well?

Judo does have elements of that. However, because judo players have to practice against fully resisting competent opponents, they learn not only the theories of redirection on a practical level, but they also learn a great deal about how to forcibly off balance you first and then go for a big throw. I played judo for 4 years as an undergrad, and had a great time with it. Actually, judo would be a good choice for this character because it could be RPed like a rigorous sport that is used for self-defense in an emergency.

In terms of description, I'd say judo is similar to jujitsu.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (rozark69 @ Mar 9 2005, 02:20 PM)
Kungfu but Jeetkundo (spelling sorry) is a defensive counter striking martial art and can be used with polearms I believe.she sounds fun.

"Jeet Kune Do" is strictly speaking a theory, not a martial art. The thing that was codified by Bruce Lee with a southpaw lead and a raised left heel, and which combines elements of wing chun, thaiboxing, savate, fencing, etc etc etc is strictly speaking called "Jun Fan Kung Fu", "Jun Fan" being Bruce Lee's cantonese name.

In any case, Jun Fan would be just as good as thai boxing or boxing or whatnot; the character might not want to use bil gee to the eyes, though wink.gif . To characterize it I'd say that it focuses on nontelegraphicness (i.e. interception, in some cases) but that it dosen't focus as exclusively on that as wing chun does. It also has power hits and incorporates more ranges of combat.
Smiley
If he's using it just for flavor's sake, what does it matter what he calls it?
Wounded Ronin
It matters for the same reason that authors of fiction usually do a little bit of research into the things they are writing about. A small amount of authenticity can add a lot of flavor in the story.



EDIT: Reflecting some more, specifically on the use of the staff, I can't think of any arts that are simultaneously 1.) sterotypically redirectional and 2.) are also famous for staff work.

In general, though, staff work is pretty common in things like okinawan karate and some forms of classical kungfu, as far as oriental martial arts goes. Jun Fan, though, is *not* known for use of a bo.

If integrating the staff is a high in-character priority, then I'd suggest just going with okinawan karate or shaolin kungfu or something. Both of these arts, especially shaolin kungfu, do teach the theory of redirecting attacks along with a lot of other things; it's just that they're not really sterotypically known for that.

If you took shaolin kungfu you could go on these big Buddhist philosophical tangents about nonviolence, and use redirecty moves like "Lohan Tames Tiger", and so it would all work out.

Hmm, also, since you're taking the Pole Arms skill, the one art that actually teaches how to use a big variety of exotic pole arms today would be shaolin kungfu. Red tassel is mandatory. wink.gif
Lafcadio
From what you say about your character it sounds like you are looking at two main melee options; self-defense/subdual, and pole-arms with a focus on the staff. If you just wanted to specialize in the staff and let the other pole-arm stuff slide, then a karate system like kyokushin that Wounded Ronin mentioned earlier would work pretty well, although they take a very direct and aggressive approach to subdual dead.gif If you wanted a more mainland style then you could go with kungfu as there are many schools that teach various pole-arm techniques from spear to staff, and they use thecniques that individuals with smaller builds can incorporate well.

Wounded Ronin, you mentioned Kyokushin Karate in your post earlier. Have you trained it at all?
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Lafcadio @ Mar 9 2005, 02:40 PM)
From what you say about your character it sounds like you are looking at two main melee options; self-defense/subdual, and pole-arms with a focus on the staff.  If you just wanted to specialize in the staff and let the other pole-arm stuff slide, then a karate system like kyokushin that Wounded Ronin mentioned earlier would work pretty well, although they take a very direct and aggressive approach to subdual  dead.gif  If you wanted a more mainland style then you could go with kungfu as there are many schools that teach various pole-arm techniques from spear to staff, and they use thecniques that individuals with smaller builds can incorporate well.

Wounded Ronin, you mentioned Kyokushin Karate in your post earlier.  Have you trained it at all?

I haven't trained in Kyokushin, but I know that Kyokushin is one of the few styles that practices full contact sparring. I also know that the Korean-born founder of Kyokushin, Mas Oyama, believed very strongly in the value of fully resistant full contact sparring. So yes, Kyokushin is aggressive in terms of how it's practiced, but a punch to the skull and a kick to the groin isn't really lethal either. I figure that someone who is a pacifist but who is also a shadowrunner would be okay with administering a beatdown to someone if she had to, instead of shooting someone, for example.

In terms of my own background with regards to karate, I've done about a year of Seido many years ago, and I also did some okinawan for about a year at a later date.

EDIT: A summary of my martial arts background: http://www.poalo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p...p=215463#215463
Lafcadio
Interesting. I myself having been training with some Kyokushin guys for about 4 years, and it is always good to hear from others. If you dig some intense sparring I recomend hooking up with these guys. It really gives you a good persective on what works and what doesn't for your individual build and skills. And a good strike to the head probably won't kill somebody, unless you were Mas Oyama. That guy was a real piece of work. You should see some of the bull-fight videos where he went in and knocked the horns off the bulls with his hands (shotei I believe). I will try to find a link to a site with a good movie.
Req
I did 4 years of Yoshokai Aikido, and there was a fair amount of staff work involved. For what that's worth.

I'll also echo what Ronin said re: earlier aikido being a lot less touchy-feely and a lot more ass-kickin'. O-sensei was a fairly hardcore fellow. smile.gif
Backgammon
Although I personnally do Capoeira, I wouldn't really recommend it for a shadowrunner, but in this case you could consider it because:
  • Small and fast works very well with capoeira
  • A staff could be used... more like rattan sticks though (2 short staffs!). It's not strictly capoeira, it's called MaculÍlÍ and it's purely for show, but stretching it you could say you use it in combat, or at least it helps you in combat (although kali would obviously be a better choice, as would many other)
  • Capoeira is favoured by women (majority of students at my school are girls)
  • It's definatly very "flavourful" and distinctive. Doesn't get any flashier than capoeira!
  • Helps you get laid
  • Not an aggressive art, so it's great for pacifists. Although I have heard of people dying in street rodas (fights) in rio due to a solid kick to the head, it's VERY rare and the same can be said of any art.
For an example of what it looks like (hell, fun to watch regardless if you're making a character with it or not!) check out this clip. Note: server can't handle much traffic and may be down.
Grinder
Kung Fu - for all the cool eastern biggrin.gif

Style over Substance wink.gif
hahnsoo
A street sam without cyberimplant combat, eh? Interesting.
wagnern
As far as a Sam without cyber implant combat, Eve is an unusual Sam.

She has no cyberware (Bio ware only), and is the result of a mega corp project to create a geneticly engineered life form (gelf). This life form was to be an enhanced warrior race. Grow em in vats and implant memories and training in them with simsence/btl technology and walah, super solders. The program was stopped by operatives. The only protype, an infant, was raised by one of the operatives. She grew fast, reaching maturity in five years (geneticly accelerated development) The Bioware is to sumulate her enhanced abilities.

Thanks for all the martial arts ideas, wow, I have a lot to think about.
Critias
Depending on what you mean by "operative" (as her parent/trainer), you may just want to go with something very simple and brutal. Even pacifists might just want to take someone down, and it's quite possible to do so without killing someone. Krav Maga, for instance, would be a nice, brutally straightforward, pick for that "paramilitary" feel you seem to be going for. I think someone already mentioned Mua Thai as an option, too. Maybe Russian Martial Art (sometimes mistakenly called Combat Sambo, though the two are two different styles), for that matter?

S'all a matter of taste.
hahnsoo
Heh. We had a "sammie" like that. He had all bioware and no cyberware, and was always indignant about being called a "Street Sam". We kept calling him "Sam", to which he would knee-jerk respond "Don't call me Sam".
Dog
If you aren't actually changing anything game-mechanics wise, and just wanna call that 'unarmed combat' skill something else. Why doncha make something up? Imagine if COTD developed a system. In 'Difference Engine' some 19th century english guy studied Mr. so-and-so's School of Scientific Boxing. I always liked the sound of that.

Wasn't there a site that someone posted about several months ago, that randomly makes up kung-fu type names? Anyone remember that?
Cynic project
Fawk-you. It is a great Irish from of Martial arts, it has a lot of hitting people over the head with things like bear battle,chairs and stool..Then Kicking them wile they are on the ground.
Dog
Wire-fu: founded by Jet-Li (Lee?) just before he retired in 2020. Turns out that he was an adept spike-baby and everyone just presumed it was special effects. (With a nod to the 'Munchkin' guys.)
Tziluthi
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Mar 10 2005, 07:54 AM)
Fawk-you. It is a great Irish from of Martial arts, it has a lot of hitting people over the head with things like bear battle,chairs and stool..Then Kicking them wile they are on the ground.

Related closely to Boo-tin, the English martial art.

As for the character, I'd say jujitsu would be pretty good. Or taser-fu.
Nikoli
Fawk-hu, that has that famous signature move
Xian frees the plums right?
Demosthenes
Fawk-yu's greatest practitioners are in fact Scots, having perfected the style's signature move: The Glasgie Kiss.

Usually preceded by a celtic version of the kiai, a loud shout of "Stitch this!"

Wordy proponents of the art may question the abilities of their opponent's mother as a seamstress before uttering the battle cry, and then unveiling their lethal mastery of the Glasgie Kiss.

The Irish version of the Glasgie Kiss, the Dublin Drubbin', is generally considered to be a later development purporting to be the original...
Wounded Ronin
How about the infamous Underkilt Nut Smother?
PBTHHHHT
Some other interesting ones would be Taichi (not the slow moving stuff mind you, the higher level masters are actually rather powerful), bagua, and also xing-yi. These are internal chinese martial arts with some old and flavourful history behind them.

Bagua was also taught to many of the Chinese Imperial guards, it has lots of circular movements, great for directing around the opponent and maybe bodyguard stuff.

Xing-yi is more linear, direct and straightforward. Plus, Xing-yi has its roots from the line infantry (supposedly developed by a general in the chinese military, ages and ages ago) and it has lots of spear/staff work.
Akai Sokata
How bout (and I know im going to get kicked or questioned for this) good old fashioned Tai Kwan do. and not that sissy foot tag they play at the olympics, but 70's style beat the snot out of him with your foot, because your foot is longer then his arms TKD. mix that in with alittle hapkido/aikido for close combat and you got a decent art for any character. or person for that matter.

also if its a ork or troll character add in alittle head butt kwan. it adds something savage to the style.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Akai Sokata)
How bout (and I know im going to get kicked or questioned for this) good old fashioned Tai Kwan do. and not that sissy foot tag they play at the olympics, but 70's style beat the snot out of him with your foot, because your foot is longer then his arms TKD. mix that in with alittle hapkido/aikido for close combat and you got a decent art for any character. or person for that matter.

also if its a ork or troll character add in alittle head butt kwan. it adds something savage to the style.

Full contact TKD is pretty similar to full contact karate. See previous entries to this thread regarding kyokushin.
Demosthenes
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
How about the infamous Underkilt Nut Smother?

That was invented by the Welsh.
Only they can be so cruel, yet so effective.
Snoof
Pfeh. Everyone knows the Greatest Martial Art is LLAP-GOCH!

The secret Welsh art of self-defence that requires no intelligence, strength or physical courage!

Snoof
Crusher Bob
Remember that there will also be plenty of new martial arts, both Aikido (~1920) and JKD (~1960?) are quite new. So by 2060, there will probably be a few new major martial arts available.

Guess we should start a thred, where we come up with some funny names for them...
Fortune
Like Ginsu-fu, the art of cyber-implant combat?
Critias
Or Wildcat (which isn't krav-maga, honest!), Caramel-Egg, etc?
Wounded Ronin
Heh, you could always just make up your own art.

A few painful made up arts/schools:
*Rick Tew's "Tew ryu" ninjitsu :http://www.ninjitsu.com/
Gotta love the URL.
Watch the videos for some rather poor sparring and nature trips where people dress up as ninjas: http://www.totalwarrior.com/Video_Gallery/...eo_gallery.html

EDIT: Actually, it looks like he took the sparring videos down, which is good. Basically it was guys in head cages getting flustered and not guarding real well...


Here's another good one with a wonderful URL: http://www.attackproof.com/
It's taught by this fat guy named Perkins who has in the past wussed out of challenges. He used to have some video clips on his site where he demonstrates his anti-grappler technique, except that evidently by "grappler" he means "guy who runs at you and hugs you and then waits for you to counter."
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