Right been here a while but this is my first post!

I'm creating a new character and am looking to have ambidexterity-8 so no target modifiers for first or second gun.
Fine no probs there. The question comes when I also want to give the character 2 smartlinks ( one in each arm).
A: do I have to pay the cost for 2 smartlink 2's or can i pay for one then add the cost for an additional induction pad and processor.
Do I need to factor in another limited simsense connection and display.

B: What is the effect of 2 links in my field of vision going to do to target numbers?
Am i looking at increased target numbers, bearing in mind the ambidexterity edge. I know I will have to add +1 for a second target ( if I choose one).
Is there an alternative setup where I can have both guns linked to one display and so both line up on one target (john woo stylee).
On the display front my GM is of the opinion that you would be looking at different colours for each reticle.

A: Two complete smartlinks, I would think.


B: According to Canon, the smartlinks don't apply when you use two at once.

Personally, I despise that particular rule, and my GM ended up house-ruling that with 2 complete smartlinks, you got both targetting recepticles in different colours, and with the delta-grade experimental smartlinks my char wound up with, he could use both at once.

I aways figured that two smartlinks, you had two little dots, so unless you were trying to shoot people standing on opposite sides of your field of vision it shouldn't be a problem, any more than pointing at two separate people at the same time.

Don't know if i am right but would you not have two displays coming up in your felid of vision? If so you could think about changing the colour of one display so that they are separate?

just a thought?

torz x

Well, by cannon, you wouldn't have any targeting pips. The only benefit to having two smartlinks (by the rules) is that you can then use a smartlink in either hand -- but not both. So if you wanted to have a pair of Ares Predators, or whatever, you could shoot with one each turn (like normal, two shots, one shot and an aim, whatever), and get the benefit of the smartlink.

The benefit to having two 'links and all that via canon is that (a) it's that much longer before you need to reload. Alternate fire between the two weapons, that sort of thing, to shoot twice as long (not twice as fast, but twice as long) as the other guy, or (b) you can always pack different ammo types in each hand. Right hand is the APDS of doom, left hand is the bypass-armor flechettes of miserty. Good clean fun.

Canon answer is as Dawnshadow put it - you don't get smartlink bonuses when using paired firearms.

Edit: Critias answered first.

However, you should be able to make use of all the other smartlink features with a single smartlink processor and two interfaces (induction pads or datajacks, for example) - ie free action to change fire mode, drop clip, not wasting ammo when walking autofire...that kind of thing.

The real problem with using paired smartlinks if you actually have two full units (ie processors etc) is dividing your attention: they might well be of some use if you aim both weapons at the same target.

However, problems would crop up with trying to focus your aim and attention on two separate targets at the same time. Custom cybereyes might go some distance to being able to accurately look at/aim at both targets...And this is before you get to that pesky +2 modifier for "secondary target".

But I'd rule that just two full smartlink systems wouldn't be enough in that case.

IMG I'd allow that kind of full functionality in two situations:

1 - if you had an encephalon, a nice pair of cybereyes, alpha or better smartlinks, and wired the whole lot together. I'm basing this on the text in Shadowtech - which is not canon in SR3 - which stated that the Encephalon allowed you to "multitask your cognitive needs", which is a pretty broad kind of feature. This kind of function seems to fit, and it makes the encephalon just the kind of "Posthuman" or "Transhuman" bit of ware I feel it should be.

2 - Paired smartlinks, paired custom cybereyes (or an independent eye), and a skillwire system running the appropriate skill (say, Pistol) and another "Skill" program that alters how it interacts with the rest of your body. You command your right hand and use the right cybereye to aim. The left cybereye tracks the target you designate, and the skillwires control the rest of your body to aim and shoot with your left hand.

2 is perhaps the more plausible system under Canon, and might work better for someone with cyberlimbs etc... But it's rather ridiculously expensive for what it does, and your "secondary weapon" is limited to a number of dice equal to the lower of the skillsoft/skillwires rating (possibly adding combat pool if you spend even MORE money).

My advice would be, if you want to go for the "Triad mook with two pistols" schtick (and it's always fun), keep the ambidexterity advantage, and play an adept with improved ability: pistols instead of going for cyberware...

Caution: the views expressed in this post are not Canon and may damage your health if expressed in the presence of your GM.
YMMV

In my understanding you only have to add a second induction pad and simrig. You would get the benefit of "smart fire" where you don´t waste ammo between targets, and you would get the full benefit of the smartlink for each hand when firing one gun at a time. You would not gain any TN reduction from the smartlinks when firing both guns in the same action though. I can live with that as I´m sure it would be too unballancing otherwise. I still make an NPC with two guns to throw at my players now and then.

Say you have two SMG´s with 3 points of recoil comp each, both smartguns. The first simple action you fire both at once in burst fire mode. You get no penalties because of the recoil comp (if you had no recoil comp you would have TN +6 on both rolls, because uncompencated recoil applies to both guns). You get no benefits from the smartgun this time, but your pretty well set anyway. The second simple action you still want to avoid penalties, but the recoil will rise beyond what your can compensate, and it will be a bitch. No problem, using your smartlink you swich to semi auto with a free action, and squeeze of a shot using just one of your SMG´s. The recoil of the shot is now +4 lowered to +1 by your recoil comp, but you now get benefits from your smartlink, making it -1 instead.

See. This way you can switch between wild shooting and well aimed shots to minimize your penalties. They do this all the time in the movies. Firing two guns at a time doesn´t prevent shooting one gun at a time. Another bonus is that you can have different guns, or different ammo in each gun. Making it easy to choose the best tool for each target.

@ Mintcar:

That would be the logical thing to do.

I just wanted to offer the option of throwing money at the problem...

My post was directed at the thread author. I started writing it before seeing your post.

If you're firing two weapons at seperate targets would you have to split your skill dice as well as suffer TN modifiers?

eg skill of 6 split between 2 guns at different targets would the player roll 3 dice for each?

Curious

No.

You would use your full skill total. However, that is also a good way of dealing with it. A bit too simple for SR rules-monkeys, though.

Sorry, I meant rules-lawyers.

I'm going to burn for that one...

Demosthenes:

The two complete smartlinks not being enough -- well, he did rule that. At this particularly point the sam with that has pretty well all his cyberware wired together, linked to a computer in his left arm. Most of it delta-grade. He has some normal grade boosted reflexes and cyber-ears, and a cellphone, but everything else is delta-grade.

Most of the cyberware, beyond that, is experimental -- stuff that 'may' become SOTA in the future of our game. He ended up with a delta-clinic as a contact, and worked out an arrangement to test a bunch of their stuff. The smartlink systems are vastly more advanced as well -- most of the features, well, he doesn't even know about, because he hasn't even seen a gun with the equivalent system. And, out of character, I already know he isn't going to, so it's not a big deal. He just has a problem with people wanting to kill him, take his stuff and reverse-engineer it.

You'd still have to split the combat pool dice between the 2 seperate shots though right?

Exactly - you would still divide however many combat pool dice you decide to use for attacks this turn among the attacks you make over the course of the turn.

Every modifier applies.. the only advantage to the complicated system is you get smartlink modifiers on both shots, so you can shoot accurately twice as often.

Even then, it becomes prohibitively expensive to shoot at more than 3 targets at short range.. the +2 per additional target kills.

It would be trivial to wire up 2 smart link systems to display 2 targeting blips, the rules say you cant benefit from a smart link when wielding 2 guns so the answer must be that you cant follow them properly. If you want the ability to use a smart link with ether hand (but not both at the same time) I would say you only need an extra induction pad. I would further allow this setup to allow full cybernetic interface options when wielding pared weapons (Not wasting ammo, fast mode changing, works with weapons without physical trigger). You don’t get -2 to target numbers and reduced penalties for called shots.

Edward

Okay. First of all, I'm not looking for flames, so everybody *PLEASE* at least *TRY* to be civil if you reply to this.

torinaga:

Perhaps this is what you had in mind? (I recalled seeing it a while back, and was lucky enough to find it with a Web search.)

Dual Smartlink Processor


As always, YMMV. Check with your GM.

Good luck.

--Foreigner

OK.
Don't want to go for an adept as I've just been playing one (gm made all buildings smooth and 9 meters tall - so no wall running)
To my understanding a smartlink works by analysing the guns position and projected bullet path to the target then pointing this out to the person.
If it is just a case of getting a red dot in your eye saying you are aiming here (smartlink I) then it's the same as a laser sight without the interference.
I was under the impression that a smartlink II was more than that. The original Slink is over 15 years old and we have had things like move by wire since then, surely a system for shooting 2 guns at once would have been designed ( the film industry would have done it for "Angry cop on the edge 546" )

OK rant over....

Can you explain why I can't have 2 guns smartlinked firing at the same target then?
If I shoot two guns at once with no slink, from my ambidexterity I get no modifiers as the character is blessed with the ability to "shoot 2 guns at once" this is an 8 point edge!

Cheers Foreigner.
Just what I wanted, if you include the cost for 2 smartlinks and this on top I could see it being ok. The .2 essence cost does seem reasonable and the inability to shoot at more than one target using the system is fair.

torinaga:

You're welcome.

Happy to be of service.

Hmmm.... I wonder if some sensory-enhancing Cyberware and a Targeting Computer would help?

--Foreigner

Years ago I had a PC that wanted to be able to use 2 smartlinks at the same time. So we worked out some experimental cyber that included a full set of independently focusable cybereyes, the needed brainware to be able to handle the extra load and compensate for the weirdness of two eyes able to focus without each other, and the smartlinks running through both arms. I think I ended up charging him between 1.5 to 2 points of essence and he had to have the ambidexterity edge. The only mods that applied then were the +1 per extra target within the round, and any uncompensated recoil. He did pretty well, but I personally think in the end it cost him too damn much just to get to shoot more often. It was cool, but not really worth in IMHO. I found that I'd just rather pump a character with more speed to allow him to go more often, but back then this was still SR2 when your speed allowed you to go first before everyone got an action. Also the custom grip modification back then also added 1 die to your firearms skill, instead of just 1 point of recoil, so he had a skill of 11 (base 6 firearms, 7 for pistol concentration, 8 for gun model specialization, 9 for reflex recorder, 10 for enhanced articulation, and 11 for custom grips). 3rd edition really brought down the Sams in terms of power. Now the max you can get is 9 dice without using karma, but that's still pretty badass.

I would just use the Smartlink Subsystems rules and add a second induction pad (.1 essence, 200 nuyen). A second eye display is redundant since you only have one dominant eye anyway. Likewise, there isn't anything about the second Smartlink that will change how your body moves enough to require a second limited simsense rig. Finally, I don't think a Smartlink II processor will be burdened enough that a second will be needed, especially for commands. All you'd need is a firmware or software modification to accept I/O to/from a second source.

The other thing is that with my PC, he tends to keep one of them out of his field of vision, and generally in case someone tries to attack him from behind he has an immediately ready weapon. But my main purpose for the two guns/Smartlinks situation is that the first time I used him in combat I completely forgot about his ambidexterity, and he got shot because he wasn't behind partial cover because he was shooting with his dominant left hand around a corner to his left, whereas had I remembered he would have used his other Sig, gotten the 75%+ cover modifier, and not gotten shot in the side.

I think it is mostly a ballance issue, making you pay for flinging twice as much lead at the bad guys. Also, with some disadvantages, it keeps everyone from wealding two pistols.

If you want to use two pistols, alternate them, and fire them both on targets that are not hard to hit and/or MUST go down now.

Now to use smartlink on two pistiols, have your left arm cyber, and programed to point it's pistol at what ever your right arm is pointing to. (it would be spooky having your arm move on it's own though)

Twice as much? If you want the SL bonuses, you're still stuck using one for two shots, or one each for a shot.

Nothing in the rules, AFAIK, allows you to double the amount of lead you can throw at someone AND get the SL bonus, too.

I just don't see why you'd need to spend an extra .4 essence and 3,300 nuyen for the purposes of adding a second induction pad so you can shoot with either hand, especially if you already have ambidexterity or are willing to eat the TN penalty and want, like I mentioned, to be able to get the SL bonus for semiauto or burst fire while maximizing your cover mods, or to have backup ammo.

It's like when I was discussing the final gunfight in The Replacement Killers. From a SR perspective, Chow Yun-Fat's character's decision to carry six guns makes more sense than for him to carry several free mags, because using SR rules you get more actions simply by dropping your empty gun and quickdrawing a new one in the time it would take to reload a fresh mag into your pistol.

I'm with Crimsondude on this one. A second I/O device (induction pad or datajack) is all you should need (mm.32). The processor can handle data from both I/O devices, as can the simrig and eye display. It's a computer implanted into your body for Christ's sake. The people who design this stuff are going to take that kind of thing into account. Also, an eye display would cover both eyes IMO, as all shooting should be done with both eyes open. Better depth perception and peripheral vision.

Why a simrig needs to be a part of it at all is still a mystery to me. Body posture is totally irrelevant. The position of the gun's barrel (data collected by the smartlink hardware attached to the gun itself), its relation to your eyes and the target, and exterior ballistics, are the only things that matter.

Anyway, here's my take on the whole Smartlink thing.

Well, I only said dominant eye because it's based on the Display Link, and the Display Link is one of the, "Single-eye Accessories" (M&M, 44).

Yeah, them's the rules. I don't apply that to a Smartlink system, however. The way I see it, the main advantages of a Smartlink system is its ability to accurize and speed up the whole target acquisition process. In order to do that effectively, both eyes would need to be involved in the process for the reasons I already stated. Shooting with both eyes open is one of the first things they beat into you in defensive handgun training.

A buddy of mine (civvie, like me) has somehow gotten himself signed up as a team member for a tactical shooting competition with the Customs guys that work here (I'm with the world's largest international shipping company, we interact with our on-station Customs agents a lot).

He's a nervous wreck right now. The guy shoots a lot, but he's never had actual combat shooting classes, etc, etc, and the rules of the competition are fairly strict. It's a speed/tactical course, and both-eyes-open is one of the primary rules -- and something he's never, ever, tried.

I would, only because the rules themselves state that a Display Link is an acceptable substitute.