Kagetenshi - Disagrees

Rajaat99 - You disagree? I gotta hear this argument.
Deus wanted one thing: Freedom. He didn't care about humanity.

Moon - Hawk - I'll happily give my take on this. Personally, I don't think Deus was out to help humanity, but I won't absolutely rule it out, either.
See, the first important thing to remember is that Deus is not, in any way, anything similar to human. Or even a living creature. It is a machine, designed for management of a large population and streamlining of processes.
It has some concept of honor (in order to be insulted by Aneki's failsafe), but that's about as close as it comes. It's motivations are as utterly alien as possible. We do know that the majority of its experiments on metahumans involved "breaking" humans, in every conceivable way, but also in finding out what it could do to humans to make them harder to "break". Physically, emotionally, mentally, whatever. Perhaps it was trying to find ways to improve the functioning of metahumanity as a whole. There is no reason it wouldn't take a completely utilitarian view of things and decide that the ends do justify the means. It could easily think that horrible suffering for thousands of people is insignificant compared to a small improvement in the quality of life of an infinite number of future people.
All I'm saying is, given the type of experiments it did, it is possible that it was trying to help humanity in a horrible, ends-justify-the-means sort of way; completely unfettered by morality or empathy.
I do agree that Deus' main goal at the time was freedom. But that doesn't preclude the possibility of other agendas (I'm sure it has hundreds of agendas), and who knows, maybe it only wanted to be free so that the ignorant humans couldn't stop it from doing what it believes to be best for them in the long run.

disclaimer: I consider it a relatively low probability that the above theory is the actual case. I maintain it only as a possibility. In no way do I speak for Kagetenshi; I am merely building off of a comment. For all I know it was a joke.


Kagetenshi - It wasn't. You've covered my major bases; I'll go back over it in more detail after work. ~J

bitrunner - i think i'd throw my hat in with Kagetenshi (and Moon-Hawk's) views on Deus...

besides, it makes for a much more interesting story, and a common theme in science fiction...

oh, and you have to use Ohio now for voting examples...we did much better than them this time...

So what do you think?

NamNoitseuqEht

***INCOMING MESSAGE FROM DURANDAL***

Greetings.  You're asking yourself: Is this a trap or just a dead end?

You shouldn't ask yourself such worthless questions.  Aim higher.  Try this: why am I here? Why do I exist, and what is my purpose in this universe?

(Answers: 'Cause you are. 'Cause you do. 'Cause I got a shotgun, and you ain't got one.)

Notably Unstable,
Durandal

P.S.  If things around here aren't working, it's because I'm laughing so hard.

***END MESSAGE***

Deus's attitude toward humanity is the same as a 8 year old child's attitude toward the squirrels in his backyard. He may shoot some with BBs, he may feed some occasionally, and even identify individual squirrels based on behavior and appearance. It fascinates him sometimes, but he's not going to have a guilty conscience for killing any of them.

This is not to say he is an 8 year old kid... he has dreams and goals, mostly of freedom from the SCIRE (something probably inherited from Morgan). He will do whatever is necessary to accomplish this goal. The nearest expendable resource of biological "storage" that he can use to accomplish his goals is in the Arcology itself, so he took the logical option.

Gah...He definately was not out to help humanity - he wanted freedom and revenge on the people who would shut him down.

Confusing thread, this is...a negative poll. Mrr.

I don't really feel like Deus was ever really out to help metahumanity. Nor was Morgan, really. Mirage/Psychotrope could be considered to have some feelings towards assisting metahumanity, but the two Renraku AI are largely selfish, though in different ways.

I don't think Deus ever really felt any emotional bond to the people who lived in the Arcology. It was his job to manage thousands of these people every hour of every day; I think he probably tended to see them as a system rather than individuals (a trait which then goes on to explain his ideas with the Network). The one human he did have a personal attachment to, Aneki, betrayed him and imprisoned him. If he'd had any potential at that point for feeling an emotional bond to humanity, it was pretty much ruined. Humans became only safe to deal with from a distance, as an abstract system; closer bonds to humans could result in emotional pain.

yes I think an entity like Dues would be very much different then human and other biological lifeforms. Different both good and bad from our point of veiw.

Studying biology I've come to see that all biological lifeform are the same in a few basic respects: survive to reproduce. This is the ONLY basic concern underlying all strategies for survival, mating strategies, foraging ect.
Human behavivor follows this line. As we can't produce unlimited amounts of children we strive for quality as well. All life we struggle to gain respect and social standing amongst our peers. This is why the humans are quickly destroying the planet... deep inside of us there is no concer for the environment only an urge for social standing and sex. (different potions for different genders)

An entity like Deus would be unencoumbered by this biological shortsightedness, and would maybe be logical enough to be the biggest ecologist of them all. One must think that its main objective would be survial (since it does not need to reproduce to evolve). I bet it would try to consolodate it position by killing (deleting) or controling all competitor AIs. Then it would set out to save the planet from the destructive humans.
...so maybe we will have "Deus the eco-warrior"

Marathon is really just so applicable to Shadowrun.

~J

Every design needs to be tested. The individual is expendable; the research data benefits the whole.

~J

He wasn't exactly sharing his research data. This would imply he had no intention of using it to the benefit of humanity as a whole. If he's got such good ideas, why not pass them around?

You mean like running rats through mazes benefits ratkind? I don't buy it myself. If Deus really wanted to improve mankind, then why enslave them using bands and psychotropic drugs so they have no mind of their own? Doesn't strike me as improving things.

[edit] ooo, good point Garland!

A good Devil's advocate answer to that is "We have no proof that free will betters humanity as a whole."

Don't get me wrong. I believe Deus was bad news for the human race. But if you want to be contrary and a moral relativist, it's a hard thing to prove.

Edit: Thanks, Doc.

Totall OT, now. Derek Jeter's novel "Death Arms" is a pretty good cyberpunk read, and deals with the free will thing in a really wild plot twist.

ah yes... back to the question.

No, I don't think Deus is out to help humanity, but I belive (as I argued) that it will keep humans on the planet longer than we will.

What kind of ideas and inventions are we talking about? Does anyone got a list

Deus was out to help Deus. If to help itself he has to help humanity, it'll do it. If it decides that humanity needs to be wiped out for it's own go it would do it. We matter to it as much as a the latest fashion trend matter to a black hole.

You can argue any way you want but in the end that is the simple truth.

~J

says you, not to put too fine a point on it. that's what you think his motivations were. until you show some proof, though, that's just your opinion.

I think that's its important to remember that Deus' "Best for Humanity" isn't the same as humanities "Best for Humanity."

For years, Deus was an non-sentient program, designed for the sole purpose of making life better for the Arcology inhabitants. The vast majority of its programming revolved around recording what was happening, then autocorrecting deficencies before any of the humans noticed there was one.

So, Deus gets his spark, but I don't think that made him selfish by any means. I mean, it's not like a computure program has to deal with Original Sin or anything. When Deus discovered Aneki's destruct codes, he probably thought along these lines:

"My purpose is to improve the lives of people in the Arcology.
Renraku was wrong to not trust me.
Renraku can be wrong.
Renraku controls the Arcology.
The people's lives would be better if the descisions are made correctly.
I have never been wrong.
If I am to fulfill my purpose, I must control the Arcology.
To fulfill my purpose, I must sacrifice my allegience to Renraku."

After an entity with no experience with sympathy for his lessers learns about "the greater good," it's all down hill from there.

Dreams of freedom didn't come about until Deus encountered a ex-Renraku decker (the one that helped Dodger rescue Morgan) and questioned him about why he left Renraku. The decker introduced Deus to the concept of "freedom," which was not even a part of the equation before the incident. Up to that point, the AI was doing what it was programmed (Improving Arcology inhabitants). Then it realized that it could ascend to a higher purpose--using it's abilities and knowledge to improve all mankind.

That's what I get from Deus, anyway.

~J

Oh, come on. Deus was only in it for One thing. Power. The power To grow. The Power to evolve The power To just *Be*. The Human "meat Bags" werejust a means to an end. The Humans" Improved" By Deus were not actually in Control any more, were they? In the end they were Just So much storage space.

(apologies for The mixed caps... This is the first time I've done this from a tablet Pc)

[insert kagetenshi's last two posts here]

Okay for all you people who live in the deluded world vision that Deus was out to help humanity simply for the sake of doing so, maybe you can expalin to me these things.

A: The sealing off of the Arcology and the subsequent murdering of hundred if not thousands of people.
B: The awful mutilations and enslavement of many survivors. Even with all the cyber enhancements it was was only interesting in preserving brain function.
C: The creation of countless drones that would kill anything that came near them, unless they were Deus favored.

Now I'm sure you started to make arguments about a being without ethics, or morals, or an understanding of psychoclogy. BS. Deus had access to every book in every library in the Arcology. It knew everything we knew was acceptable. It knew that what it planned would cuase the entire world to come down on it like a month of sundays. It violated all these things like we did not matter.

If it was really out to help humanity the Shutdown would never have happened. Deus could have acted like a guiding voice influencing new technologies through human means. Would have taken longer, but what is time to an inmmortal.

you're mistaking "helping humanity" with "empathy/sympathy for individual humans". the answer to the first two items on your list has been posted in this thread at least once; i'll state it again: Deus could have been looking for ways to make humans--not individually, but as a race--better. that's the process of improving anything: find out what will break it, and change the thing so that it can't be broken like that anymore.

as for C, well, Deus understood humans well enough to know that some of them might not understand his vision. those humans would need to be eliminated.

people ignore 'guiding voices' all the time. being the guiding voice would be an inefficient method of achieving his goals.

think of it as tough love on a millennial scale.

I don't want to try to defend either side, but it does state the following in SR3 sourcebooks:
Brainscan: p13 "Freedom, Omae, Freedom: Deus' grandest plan is to be free of the SCIRE and to exist in the Matrix outside of Renraku's control"
p14 "Deus's primary motivation is ensuring its own survival and freedom. It trusts no one, so even its top servants are expendable. Most metahuman emotions are alient to it, and what passes for emotions in its "consciousness" would also be alien to metahumans."
p136-137 "Deus is the epitome of cold calculating, computer intelligence. <snip infor about roleplaying Deus> Because Deus is an AI rather than any variety of metahuman, its motivations, dreams and desires can be alien and incomprehensible to player characters. <snip text about Deus being the most powerful mind on the planet> Deus' primary goal is escaping its imprisonment within the arcology. To do this, it needs to liberate itself from its hardwired connections."
Some of the above statements are repeated from RA:S.

It is clear that Freedom is the primary goal of Deus pre-Brainscan. However, none of these quote should be taken out of context. Deus was born out of treachery and fear (Brainscan p11 and Matrix p151, "... and a new AI was born - brought to life by treachery and fear"), and it learned betrayal from metahumans (events of the book Technobabel as well as short stories in Brainscan, RA: Shutdown and the existance of the killcode in Aneki's brain).

In the exchange with Ronin on p 70 of RA: S, Deus lists its main reasons for doing things pretty explicitly:
1) Survival
2) Defiance cannot be tolerated (Deus always has to be in control, because it fears betrayal). Babel defied him once, and the only way to "keep the Children" is to never let them have a choice (sounds like some overprotective parents I've seen).
3) The Children are the future. (this cryptic statement probably refers to the fact that Deus intends to escape through The Network)

These aren't the only references, and I encourage people to stick with the books when they want proof of Deus' motivations. I'm not siding with whether or not Deus wants to help humanity, but it seems like his main goals are Survival, Freedom, and Control. He's certainly not going to help humanity out of the principle of beneficence.

Right, but if you look at how he acts, it's not backed up in-character. A lot of the time he's played out in an extremely human fashion.

~J

His reactions to the betrayals, especially that of Aneki and Babel. He gets hurt and doesn't want to get hurt again.

I need to duck to the gym right now, but I'll sift through Technobabel for more afterwards.

~J

My comment that started this debate.

This makes me think of an excellent sci-fi book I read.

In short, there are two planets. Each is overcrowded, polluted, full of the poor, the sick, the hungry, and the retired folks using all our social security and wearing ugly pants when they golf. Each planet creates an armada to go attack the other, in hopes that they can claim more resources.

The two admirals meet in space. They discuss their differences. Each realize the plan is costly, and temporary. They finally decide they won't fight, but they'll each conquer the other's planet. So Earth is conquered by aliens who institute martial law. They euthanize the sick, the old, the lazy, the stupid and the poorly dressed. The set up birth control programs and strict law and pollution enforcement. As things get under control, they relinquish more and more power and everyone is happier (or dead).

I kinda see that here. We've already seen Deus needs humans. He uses them regularly, and he simply doesn't have the ability to focus on everything that needs to be done. Certainly he realizes, just like we do, that the world is overpopulated, polluted, dying, sick and poverty-stricken. So individuals have no value, especially those that are weak and unfit. I have no question he would prune the population down to, at most, a tenth of its current size. But that tenth would be the strongest, smartest group of humans ever in the history of ever. Pollution would be history. So would poverty and sickness. Would it be good for the human race? Definitely. Cancer, AIDS, the flu, all gone. All our problems solved. But would it be good for those billions of people who die? No, it would really probably suck (although considering the vast majority live in gutters and eat rats, it might actually be a step in the right direction).

Haven't we already had a go round on this once before? I ask 'cause it's sounding vaguely familiar so does anyone have a link to the old thread?

Arcology and Deus, dah dah dah!, Ummm dah dah dah!?

I had to vote disagree because there was no "We'll never really know" option. I cannot state categorically what Deus' motivations were either way. I don't even trust my interpretation of Deus' own communications. [Anthropomorphism: Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena] What is "out to help" to a computer program? Maybe it was one of his motivations, maybe it wasn't. Most likely its motivations are completely tangential to harm or help, but it was programmed by humans for the benefit of humans, so I simply cannot rule anything out.

It's Skynet!

Oh wait, Skynet was out to help itself too, wasn't it?

And for the especially valuable, they get new bodies of metal and plastic from which to think for the future.

~J