Shape change, quickening and cyber wear.
The spell shape change clearly states what happens if you cast it on somebody that has cyber wear.
What would happen if you cast shape change on somebody and quickened it (say an elf poser or transgender that wanted to go all the way) and then somebody installed cyber wear or biowear in them without making allowances for (or indeed knowing) that the person was not what they appear to be.
Edward
Full Version: Shape change, quickening and cyber wear.
Interesting question. The exact result would probably be at the discretion of your GM. With most GMs I know, the character in question would be in for a world of hurt.
Yes. yes they would *evil GM grin*
Any reasoning on the world of hurt argument.
I can see big problems when the spell is dispelled (the wear needs to go somewhere) but no obvious logical or balance problem. I am of cause willing to listen, otherwise I wouldn’t have asked.
Would the answer change if the surgeon was aware of the enchantment?
Had magical help with the surgery?
Was the one that cast the spell in the first place?
Edward
I can see big problems when the spell is dispelled (the wear needs to go somewhere) but no obvious logical or balance problem. I am of cause willing to listen, otherwise I wouldn’t have asked.
Would the answer change if the surgeon was aware of the enchantment?
Had magical help with the surgery?
Was the one that cast the spell in the first place?
Edward
Quickly off the top of my head (because dinner's going on the table):
Implanting in the first place, no problem. The body is the body, fine, the doc will implant it as per normal for metatype or gender.
If the shapechange is later dispelled, problem. I'd rule-of-thumb damage to the character based on (a) how much cyber and (b) how significant the change was in the first place.
Implanting in the first place, no problem. The body is the body, fine, the doc will implant it as per normal for metatype or gender.
If the shapechange is later dispelled, problem. I'd rule-of-thumb damage to the character based on (a) how much cyber and (b) how significant the change was in the first place.
going by the text of shapechange it seems that cyberware allready installed will change to a shape that fits but becomes useless. if one wants to avoid a world of hurt one can basicly state that when the spell is removed the prosess is reversed, and any implants put in while in the other shape ends up in a shape that fits but a basicly useless.
The spell is discussing critters when it talks about ctberware not working. I don't know that cyberware would not keep functioning in another similar metahuman form like the ones described.
The way I see it is that magic and cyberware generally don't mix, with a few notable exceptions in novels.
So if you implant cyberware into an animal or a person, then shapechange them, I would think the shapechange doesn't affect the cyberware at all. So unless the luckless person gets lucky, the various body parts will change in the body, causing connections to sever and if you're shapechanged to a lesser body then there is a serious risk of fragmentation from compression into vital organs.
There is no canon source for this (unless I've missed something, which I probably have), so this is just my opinion.
Imagine what would happen if you shapechanged them to a lesser body animal and they had headware...owch.
So if you implant cyberware into an animal or a person, then shapechange them, I would think the shapechange doesn't affect the cyberware at all. So unless the luckless person gets lucky, the various body parts will change in the body, causing connections to sever and if you're shapechanged to a lesser body then there is a serious risk of fragmentation from compression into vital organs.
There is no canon source for this (unless I've missed something, which I probably have), so this is just my opinion.
Imagine what would happen if you shapechanged them to a lesser body animal and they had headware...owch.
Actually remember cyber is paid for by essence therefore affected by magic. The precedence is set by Invisibility vs cybereyes. The cyber should chapechange with them, it just may not work.
Ah! I forgot about that caveat. Welp, if the Critters book describes effect of using magic on cyberware in "test animals" then that makes a little sense.
Hrm....wayyy too much to read...
Hrm....wayyy too much to read...
Actually the description of the shape change spell states that cyber wear payed for with essence causes no problems, it is however unavailable while you are shapchanged.
My queerly however was relating to casting shape change and then implanting cyber wear.
Edward
My queerly however was relating to casting shape change and then implanting cyber wear.
Edward
My opinion is that, after being implanted the ware is effected by the shapechange spell just like all previously implanted ware is. It simply becomes unusable because the quickened spell is designed to sustain the character in a specific form and that form doesn't have the ware. The quickened spell wouldn't distinguish the new ware from any other body part that doesn't conform to the specified design.
Once the spell ends there would still be big problems. The ware would still be tied to the character's essence but it wouldn't be tied to the same nerve endings.
Once the spell ends there would still be big problems. The ware would still be tied to the character's essence but it wouldn't be tied to the same nerve endings.
That is going to create 2 interesting difficulties.
First you say the spell will do with the cyber wear what it would have done if it had been implanted before casting the spell, you reference “body part that doesn't conform to the specified design.” Effectively the quickened spell is going to force you back into the form you where changed into by the spell after the spell was cast. If it can do this for newly implanted cyber wear would it not do the same for wounds the body took, effectively granting something similar to the critter power of regeneration.
Your statement for what happens when the spell ends mostly makes sense but there are circumstances that make it problematic. For example an elf shape changed into a troll and having titanium bone lace installed would have a skeleton significantly bigger than his body when the spell ended, probably causing more than a little inconvenience, probably death.
Edward
First you say the spell will do with the cyber wear what it would have done if it had been implanted before casting the spell, you reference “body part that doesn't conform to the specified design.” Effectively the quickened spell is going to force you back into the form you where changed into by the spell after the spell was cast. If it can do this for newly implanted cyber wear would it not do the same for wounds the body took, effectively granting something similar to the critter power of regeneration.
Your statement for what happens when the spell ends mostly makes sense but there are circumstances that make it problematic. For example an elf shape changed into a troll and having titanium bone lace installed would have a skeleton significantly bigger than his body when the spell ended, probably causing more than a little inconvenience, probably death.
Edward
If you shapeshift into a tiger and get shot, are you still injured when you shapeshift back?
If yes: The cyberware remains and you have all the problems involved with the sudden change in body with cyberware included. Possible results:
1) Because cyberware etc is paid for with essence, it changes with the person, possibly making a painful change, but having no further ill effects, and functions as normal in the new body. Unlikely
2) The cyberware remains in the form it was implanted into the shapeshifted body. This results in massive tearing and trauma. This however, presents potential problems. What happens when you have a character shapeshifted into a tiger... and the tail gets shot off? Shapeshift back, there's .. no tail on the character, so no tail to be shot off.. but the injury must remain. Apply whatever situation you like, as long as it involves the shapeshifted form being injured in a way the original form is not equipped to be.
If no: The cyberware reverts to some form of flesh etc, and simply does not function in the new body, despite the essence loss. It remains there, lost essence, until the unfortunate person dies. This is effectively the same thing as if the shapeshifter had cyberware to begin with, except it doesn't come back if the character has the quickened spell recast.
Edit: Fixed a typo in the top line.. should not have been 'get short'.. don't know why I hit the 'r' key..
If yes: The cyberware remains and you have all the problems involved with the sudden change in body with cyberware included. Possible results:
1) Because cyberware etc is paid for with essence, it changes with the person, possibly making a painful change, but having no further ill effects, and functions as normal in the new body. Unlikely
2) The cyberware remains in the form it was implanted into the shapeshifted body. This results in massive tearing and trauma. This however, presents potential problems. What happens when you have a character shapeshifted into a tiger... and the tail gets shot off? Shapeshift back, there's .. no tail on the character, so no tail to be shot off.. but the injury must remain. Apply whatever situation you like, as long as it involves the shapeshifted form being injured in a way the original form is not equipped to be.
If no: The cyberware reverts to some form of flesh etc, and simply does not function in the new body, despite the essence loss. It remains there, lost essence, until the unfortunate person dies. This is effectively the same thing as if the shapeshifter had cyberware to begin with, except it doesn't come back if the character has the quickened spell recast.
Edit: Fixed a typo in the top line.. should not have been 'get short'.. don't know why I hit the 'r' key..
Dawnshadow.
I take it that you would expect the cyber wear to function properly until the spell is dispelled.
Edward
I take it that you would expect the cyber wear to function properly until the spell is dispelled.
Edward
Yes Edward, I would, barring the shapeshifter spell causing regeneration or some such. If the bad stuff (ie/injuries) doesn't go away, then the good stuff shouldn't either.
Unless it is a custom spell, the shapeshift spell doesn't grant regeneration. So you'd be fine then.
| QUOTE (Edward @ Mar 14 2005, 09:55 AM) |
| That is going to create 2 interesting difficulties. First you say the spell will do with the cyber wear what it would have done if it had been implanted before casting the spell, you reference “body part that doesn't conform to the specified design.” Effectively the quickened spell is going to force you back into the form you where changed into by the spell after the spell was cast. If it can do this for newly implanted cyber wear would it not do the same for wounds the body took, effectively granting something similar to the critter power of regeneration. Your statement for what happens when the spell ends mostly makes sense but there are circumstances that make it problematic. For example an elf shape changed into a troll and having titanium bone lace installed would have a skeleton significantly bigger than his body when the spell ended, probably causing more than a little inconvenience, probably death. Edward |
The first problem applies to even more situations. Say a character gets his leg blown off when he recieves a deadly wound from a land mine. His is stabilized but still has a serious wound and a missing leg. He has his mage friend shapeshift him into soemone with two legs as a stopgap measure to regain his mobility and escape.
Logically, since his wounded leg has grown back the wound should be healed. However, that's just an asinine way around the wound peality and healing rules. One could rule it that the wound goes away while he is shapechanged.
I prefer the idea that the wound is simply internalized. While the spell give him the perfect form of a person with two legs it does nothing to change the fact that he really just had his leg blown off and is suffering from it. He still suffers from the pain and shock and he still has the same wound penalities, just no mobility penalities from the lost leg. When the spell ends his new leg will disappear and he'll still have to get medical treatment.
The same could be said for wounds attained while the shapeshift spell is in effect. The spell give you the form and physical capibilities of whatever the magician wants you to be so long as it is sustained. The spell doesn't change you back when it is droped. Rather, the spell maintains an unnatural form for as long as it is sustained. When it is dropped or dispelled the subject naturaly reverts to its natural form.
The magic would appear to restore limbs so long as it is sustained because it maintains the unnatural form. [Edit: it probably wound't mend holes since they are rather superficial conpared to missing limbs.] However, this would be just the base superficial sppearance of regeneration. In reality the wounds would still be there, the pain would still be felt. If the wound is deadly there may be no external bleeding but inside major blood vessels would be torn or ruptured. When the spell is droped allwounds sustained would take their toll on the the character's true form.
Also, blood or a severed body part would revert to its original form instantly, since it is no longer part of the subject's aura it is no longer influanced by the spell.
That's my current take on it, anyway.
As for the second problem. Yes, exactly. The new form isn't natural. It is a product of a sustained spell. Putting troll-sized cyberware into an elf who has shapeshifted into a troll is still putting troll-sized cyberware into an elf. It doesn't work because the surgeon is implanting the wrong equipment in the wrong place, as a direct result of the patient's mistake. I doubt any surgeon would knowingly implant ware into a shapeshifted person.
Actualy, I'd probably be inclined to make such an operation jest fail outright. No essense loss and no use of the cyberware but there would still be resulting wounds.
My interpretation of that would be this. If a person suffered a deadly wound and lost their leg due to a land mine, then someone attempted to shapechange them into something else with 2 legs in order to let them run away faster, they would turn into that thing, missing a leg.
Alternately, if they were running around as a panther or something, and got a front leg blown off, then the shapechange spell stopped being sustained, their arm would then be missing. Make wounds persistant.
As far a cyberware goes, it was paid for with essence, and will be affected by magic in the same ways as the person is. If I get a cyberarm, and shapechange into a panther, the arm will change into a panther shaped cyber arm that is attached and can be used. (It says physical bonuses from cyberware still counts). Things like boosted reflexes, wired reflexes, reaction enhancers, or anything else, would just get put and changed to not be harmful to the animal, but provide no bonus. Alternately, if designed for that animal, and put in them while the shape change spell was sustained, then the spell was removed, it would again change the cyberware into a useless piece of metal that wasn't harmful to the original metahuman.
As to the bone lacing a troll sized elf... Well, seeing as it is a physical bonus gotten, and thus still effective either way, you could say the spell puts the excess metal in thicker concentrations, so the weight increase was the same for the elf as it would've been for the troll. Or that the excess metal was removed from the body, or jsut placed in the bloodstream/around the body in minor doses (as we do need various minerals to live) so that to be neither harmful nor beneficial to the metahuman.
Alternately, if they were running around as a panther or something, and got a front leg blown off, then the shapechange spell stopped being sustained, their arm would then be missing. Make wounds persistant.
As far a cyberware goes, it was paid for with essence, and will be affected by magic in the same ways as the person is. If I get a cyberarm, and shapechange into a panther, the arm will change into a panther shaped cyber arm that is attached and can be used. (It says physical bonuses from cyberware still counts). Things like boosted reflexes, wired reflexes, reaction enhancers, or anything else, would just get put and changed to not be harmful to the animal, but provide no bonus. Alternately, if designed for that animal, and put in them while the shape change spell was sustained, then the spell was removed, it would again change the cyberware into a useless piece of metal that wasn't harmful to the original metahuman.
As to the bone lacing a troll sized elf... Well, seeing as it is a physical bonus gotten, and thus still effective either way, you could say the spell puts the excess metal in thicker concentrations, so the weight increase was the same for the elf as it would've been for the troll. Or that the excess metal was removed from the body, or jsut placed in the bloodstream/around the body in minor doses (as we do need various minerals to live) so that to be neither harmful nor beneficial to the metahuman.
I am curious as to how you are shape changing an elf into a troll in the first place. The spell description states that the spell changes you into a normal critter.
| QUOTE |
| MiTS p. 148 Shapechange. Shapechange changes a voluntary target into a normal critter. chosen by the caster. ... Use the critter statistics given on p. 19 of Critters. |
As for what happens to cyberware that has been implanted after the spell was cast and quicken. I would say that the cyberware was not affected by the spell because it was added afterwards and that when the spell ends it would not transform with the rest of the body. This could cause major problems due to tearing of flesh, misfitting parts, and just missing the pieces that were removed to implant the cyberware.
The table on page 19 of Critters also includes basic stats for all the metahuman races.
The text specifically calls that a separate table with a separate purpose.
Didn't look at the text, just the table.
That being said, there's no logical reason to limit the spell in this manner. If Shapechange can magically manage the major changes required to trnsform someone into any Critter, it should be able to accomplish the relatively minor change(s) necessary to alter someone's race.
That being said, there's no logical reason to limit the spell in this manner. If Shapechange can magically manage the major changes required to trnsform someone into any Critter, it should be able to accomplish the relatively minor change(s) necessary to alter someone's race.
bit_buckethead: Question for that.. how would you cope with things like the shaman shapeshifted into a tiger getting his/her tail shot off? I'm not saying I disagree with your interpretation, I'd just like to know how you'd carry it through.
Would the injury just go away? Would we have a character without a tailbone? That can't sit down because it always feels like his/her back end has been shot? Would the feeling ever go away?
Would the injury just go away? Would we have a character without a tailbone? That can't sit down because it always feels like his/her back end has been shot? Would the feeling ever go away?
| QUOTE (Dawnshadow) |
| Would the injury just go away? Would we have a character without a tailbone? That can't sit down because it always feels like his/her back end has been shot? Would the feeling ever go away? |
I would say that the tailbone would be lost. In truth most mammals have pretty much corresponding body parts, so what ever was lost in one form would be lost in any other. I have no canon reasons for this view. It just prevents the use of the shapechange as a cheap regen spell. As for healing the wound, you would either have to have a new part grown or some other way of replacing it. You did actually lose a part of yourself after all. This brings up an interesting question though, if you have a part vat grown while in the shapechanged form, will it come out in metahuman or animal form?
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| That being said, there's no logical reason to limit the spell in this manner. If Shapechange can magically manage the major changes required to trnsform someone into any Critter, it should be able to accomplish the relatively minor change(s) necessary to alter someone's race. |
The question I have is would you then allow the person to shapechange into a particular person then?
That isn't within the spell's power, just as the spell doesn't allow you to change someone into Shamu, the killer whale. The spell can change someone into a generic version of a Critter (or in my opinion race), and then prodigious use of the Disguise skill or Mask (or Physical Mask) spell could serve to accomplish the specific impersonation.
In most instances, only the Mask spell would be needed, but in the case of Trolls being changed into Dwarves (for example), the Shapechange spell should certainly help.
In most instances, only the Mask spell would be needed, but in the case of Trolls being changed into Dwarves (for example), the Shapechange spell should certainly help.
I'm of the opinion that Shapechange cannot turn a metahuman into a metahuman of another type. The only reason I might allow it is if the spell isn't limited to metahumans, which would bring up an interesting use of the spell...
i assumed not only could shape change change you into a meta human but it could change you into a facsimile of a specific meta human, but you would only have average stats and no cyber wear, limiting its utility for impersonation of cybered individuals.
My GM would claim you can choose any physical stats you want when you change form I don’t like that interpretation as having max QUI and STR is no harder than average.
EG. I can quite clearly turn into a dog.
Can I not turn into a ridge-back with a white front left foot? And dose this not mach a dog I want to impersonate.
If I can turn into a meta human can I also not choose traits within nors for the metatype.
And if shape change doesn’t allow meta humans consider the custom spell that would.
Edward
My GM would claim you can choose any physical stats you want when you change form I don’t like that interpretation as having max QUI and STR is no harder than average.
EG. I can quite clearly turn into a dog.
Can I not turn into a ridge-back with a white front left foot? And dose this not mach a dog I want to impersonate.
If I can turn into a meta human can I also not choose traits within nors for the metatype.
And if shape change doesn’t allow meta humans consider the custom spell that would.
Edward
Actually I would rule the spell could not shapechange you into a metahuman, because the spell description specifically says critter, which metahumans are not.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| Actually I would rule the spell could not shapechange you into a metahuman, because the spell description specifically says critter, which metahumans are not. |
| QUOTE (me) |
And if shape change doesn’t allow meta humans consider the custom spell that would. |
I'd have no problems allowing a custom spell to do that. I was just suggesting that Shapechange can't. 
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| That isn't within the spell's power, just as the spell doesn't allow you to change someone into Shamu, the killer whale. |
Why do I suddenly have the feeling that someone is going to get a whale dropped on them next game.
What would be the body of a whale be? My guess would be about 20. How about armor? As for the shapechange spell being able to change metatype I have a tendance to go with the book reading of normal critter. If you want to impersonate someone then there are already spells that allow this. Mask for instance. Although a custom physical transformation spell wouldn't be a bad idea. Gets around all of those pesky illusion problems.
I surppose it would depend on the type of whale? are you talking killer (medium size), humpback (large), or Blue (bloody huge!)..........
torz x
torz x
I was thinking blue, but I guess you would have to have one heck of spell force for that. I guess killer then.
Ford, your turning into a penguin, stop it!
Ford, your turning into a penguin, stop it!
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