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Enigma
Am I the only one who thinks that the new announcement of SR4, quite apart from the issues of how they kept it quiet and who lied to who, is a terrible step?

I feel that SR3 has just gotten to the point where it was fleshed out, it had character, it was breathing new life into a game that had stagnated at SR2. I also note that I have bought every SR3 book (as well as every SR1 and SR2 book) and I was truly looking forward to the new product line. The SOTA books were an exceptionally good (if not enormously original) idea and I was looking forward to the delayed Australian release of Shadows of Europe.

I have been playing RPGs for about ten years now, and I think I've had a go at almost all the more popular ones. In my view SR was the best in terms of intelligent thought, in terms of back story, in terms of support and simplicity in rule systems and playability.

I have to say that SR4 seems to me to be nothing more than a pathetic, money-grubbing marketing tactic. I am absolutely convinced that there was more than enough life in SR3 to run another two years at the very least. There was direction for ongoing plots, there was room for rule development and there was ample scope for development of the game world.

It may be said that SR4 is an attempt to address rule issues, however I can't agree with this either. There simply aren't enough discrepancies and problems with the rules to justify a further edition. As a GM of SR for upwards of nine years there is nothing I haven't been able to fix with a minimal GM ruling or some common sense. Almost every other game I've ever played has more rule problems that SR3 does.

I'm posting to express my disgust. In my view this marks the first (very large) step in FanPro becoming like so many other gaming companies, in being more interested in getting the cash in quickly than supporting existing games, releasing quality product and maintaining a fan base. FanPro is doing nothing more than forcing existing players to shell out for a new edition and multiple follow-on sourcebooks if they want to remain current in the plot lines and development of the game. New players to the game spend the same cash as old players and it is obvious that FanPro simply wants the cash in the door and doesn't care what it needs to do to get the cash in. For the first time in my entire SR fandom I question whether I want to continue my investment in this game.

I may be the only one. If I'm not, this may be the end of Shadowrun.
ShaunClinton
Ridiculous.

Companies are there to make money, that's the bottom line. You play Shadowrun, I'd have thought you'd have known this.

Did you read SOTA 2064? Most of it was ridiculous, especially the overcooked adept section and you know that Fanpro are scrambling in the dirt for stuff to release when they have cigarette rockets in a 'spy' section.

Fundamentally once you've released a certain number of core books, all your other books become either 'place' books, adventures or ever-more ridiculous power boosting books such as 2064 which we shall talk of no more.

What to do then to keep your RPG alive? There are only so many interesting places, and most of them have been done by now. Adventures are amongst the poorer selling books (unless it's a mega-event like Bug City, Renraku Arcology, etc., but you can't have those too often) so you need to get people to buy more of your core books and to appeal to new fans.

The majority of new fans aren't going to want to leap into SR3 (which was launched in 1998/99) and has a whole plethora of books they need to buy... and if you want to wait till my copy of M&M is so tattered I feel compelled to buy a new one you'll be waiting a long time.

So you make a new edition. There's plenty of stuff that could do with updating you say to yourself. Most fans probably agree. You throw in some new plot hooks, storylines, etc. to make sure it's worthwhile to upgrade to the new edition and improve the rest as best you can. You release it and then you can begin the cycle anew and sell plenty of books which look good on the bottom line.

You want SR to still exist I suppose? Well get behind it and support the new edition. I'm sure there'll be worthwhile stuff in it. Buy it and see, if you don't like it... fine, stop playing or continue playing SRIII. But I'll be in line to pick up my copy of M&M2, Magic in the 2070 Shadows, etc.

This kind of "I don't want to buy ten books" thinking led to the scrapping of beautiful (if wasteful) books like PAoNA, Shadowtech and their like. Bring 'em back Fanpro... I'll buy a book that has a full page dedicated to a Smartlink!!! Woo! Hmm... maybe not! But I liked them back in the day!

So anyway, might I be the first to tentatively announce Shadowrun 5th Edition, appearing in bookstores sometime around December 24th 2011... spooky, huh?

Arethusa
You're not the only one. Eldritch agrees with you quite a bit.

Unfortunately, you're both impossible to take seriously.
Sandoval Smith
1: No one was lied to.

2: If they fix the decking rules so that letting the decker do his thing no longer sidelines the rest of the party, that alone will make 4th Edition worth it to me.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith @ Mar 19 2005, 11:51 PM)
1: No one was lied to.

[EDIT: There was a post here, but the person who the post referenced has since changed their view of what was actually said vs what they heard, and reconciled the two. Out of respect of that view, I'm removing my post.]
craigpierce
i personally feel that i will not want to play using SR4, but that i will like the updates to the world (such as everything being wireless)...and maybe even some of the "streamlined rules".

i can see myself using SR3 rules, and just integrating what i like from SR4 into SR3.

of course, that's only if i don't like SR4 enough to play it.
Sandoval Smith
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
QUOTE (Sandoval Smith @ Mar 19 2005, 11:51 PM)
1: No one was lied to.

McQullian insists he was lied to at GenCon So Cal, but there's no proof that the people he talked to knew a new edition was in the works.

Yeah, the release date is August, and they haven't even put the devleopment journal up yet. A good part of the book probably still needs to be written. Probably, as soon as SR4 was confirmed for the production schedule, they made the announcement, and you can't realistically expect every employee and con staffer for a company to kow EVERYTHING that the company is doing, especially for something that the people working on would want to keep under wraps until they have a confirmed schedule.
BishopMcQ
Since my name is getting thrown around...

It's not my expectation that every employee know what is going on, but there is a difference between "SR4 is not going to happen, we have a strong development line of products coming out." and "I haven't heard anything about SR4 being worked on."

Both lines say the same thing, but the second is obviously much less inflammatory when a contradictory statement comes out a few months later. Because I don't know if the people I spoke with actually knew whether or not the edition was in the works (playtesting etc.), I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to them and have come to terms with how I feel about SR4.

I'd like to get more information than has been thus far released, though I'm not holding my breath since NDAs generally have strict wording and I do not expect anything beyond the Press Release. Though, since the work is probably in the hands of the editors, the occassional sneak-peek at new systems would be most appreciated.

My thought here is very similar to what other companies have done when releasing new products. Put up a link on their front page that links to a couple pages of text from the new book--designed to draw more interest and entice players to buy the new system. Maybe put up a new archetype and character sheet, or even a shadow-talk discussion of new aspects of the game if hard mechanics would be difficult to pare down.

Thoughts?
Sandoval Smith
There's supposed to be a development blog going up from the SR 4 team. I'd consider that even better than getting samples from the book.
BishopMcQ
Can you define what a development blog is?

I'm familar with both terms individually but have no point of reference for the combined term. I don't know if that is going to give me the information I'm looking for which is why i defined what I would like to see.

What I don't want is the blog just telling us that the book has come back from the editors and is going into beta playtesting before a final round at the editors and then off to publishing, etc. I'm looking for a more concrete feeling of the system and what it offers the consumer since that is who they have to convince to buy their product.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Enigma)
I feel that SR3 has just gotten to the point where it was fleshed out, it had character, it was breathing new life into a game that had stagnated at SR2.

It was released 6.5 years ago. If it's just now doing this, there's a big problem.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (McQuillan @ Mar 19 2005, 11:33 PM)
Can you define what a development blog is?

It's what this was.

Dave Hyatt, BTW, is one of the two people most responsible for Firefox's existence, and created the Shadowland website for Shadowrun back in 1994, before he went to work for Apple coding Safari (which IIRC was borne out of his work on Camino when he was still with Mozilla).

But it is a blog providing, well, news and updates about the progress of various aspects of the project through its development.
Eyeless Blond
Honestly I'd rather see something like a Design Diary, like the one Monte Cook has (which is actually more like a Design Journal, but you get the idea). It's less a laundry list of dates and more about giving insight into the thought processes that went behind the different rules/plotlines/drekcetera that went into the game.
Demonseed Elite
It may be like that. No idea yet on the format of it. But dev blogs run the gamut, especially since it depends on what the owner is developing!
Papadoc
What "Developers Blog"? You do realize that there is only 5 months between now and GenCon (August)? This product has got to be in the play-test stage (and some ways into it) by now, or it will never make it's publication date. I don't see much in the way of "development" left to be done, other than fix any problems that come up in play test. Either that, or this will be the fastest book/game development/writing in history.
Synner
A Developer's Blog doesn't have to be a real-time diary/update of the state of development, explaining things as they are decided or developed, it can simply be a running commentary of the various changes and reasoning behind them, one element at a time gradually building up a full picture of the new system and setting changes before the new edition is released.
mintcar
They have said that they´ve been working on it for a year. Somehow I think they´ve done more than just talk about it on their lunch breaks in that time.

I think some clues needs to be published on the officiall site like right now! Why not advertice the changes?
Papadoc
That was kind of my point. This book is just a step or two away from going to the publisher/printer to be turned into a book. There is no real "development" left, so a "developers blog" would be useless. I agree that FanPro publishing/releasing some concrete information about the new product would be nice.
mintcar
One of those situations when a post slips in while you are writing yours, you know. View my post as a general comment.
hobgoblin
guaridans of order (tri-stat fame) keep one here, most likely we will see something of the same on the shadowrunrpg site...

hmm, they seems to have shut it down tho. no person that had the time to keep it alive. time will tell if the same happens to the "shadowblog" nyahnyah.gif
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
I think some clues needs to be published on the officiall site like right now! Why not advertice the changes?


Well, mainly because the announcement was made from and during a gaming convention. At which the people who'd be in charge of putting out this information were at, and not at their office desks where they could do the work. But that stuff should be starting up very shortly.

I don't really know what kind of format it will take, but nitpicking over the definition of "development blog" is kinda silly. Maybe it's more like a "developer's commentary" like the cast/crew commentaries on a DVD. Where the product is done/mostly done, but the people behind it explain some hows and whys. But who knows? We'll find out soon enough.
Dillinger
hello everyone. i think id just throw in my two sense...
i honestly dont know what too think of SR 4. over time sr3 became a big investment too me, as it did too everyone im sure. Im as excited as im glad fanpro decided too come back and revamp alot of things about the game that really needed a second look at. But on the other hand i cant help but feel bitter as i begain too seriously enter(as in the gm side) of sr3 only recently. The idea of rebuying every core and expansion book i own kinda pisses me off tho i understand games like this need too progress over time. So, in a nutshell: 4th edition im sure will be just as fun if better than 3. but having too already for me relearn all i've already learned and rebuy what i've already bought really irritates me.
Little Bill
QUOTE (Enigma)
FanPro is doing nothing more than forcing existing players to shell out for a new edition and multiple follow-on sourcebooks if they want to remain current in the plot lines and development of the game.

Perhaps you should be asking yourself why you might want to remain current? Some of my favorite games are old games that went out of print long ago and no longer have a developing "meta-plot" to block the direction my own campaign was going or some big rules revision that introduces a huge, soceity-changing wrinkle that I don't want to deal with at the moment.
Sometimes the designers make bad choices.
Examples: I haven't bought a Battletech book since the clans invaded. Any campaigns I run in that universe take place before they invaded, or alter history so that they never did.
Traveller made the huge mistake of turning their space-opera setting into a post-apocolyptic setting (with bad rules) in "The New Era". The success of GURPS: Traveller and T20, both of which return to the original pre-rebellion setting, show just how big a mistake that was.

My point is, what do you care if you're current? If you liked the game as it was then play it that way, and ignore all the new dreck coming out of an entirely different company than the one who developed the setting in the first place.

It's no skin off your nose if you're unaware of new meta-plot wrinkles that are crap.
Cray74
QUOTE (Enigma)
Am I the only one who thinks that the new announcement of SR4, quite apart from the issues of how they kept it quiet and who lied to who, is a terrible step?

I can't say if you're alone, but I disagree with you.

SR3 was the longest-lived of all the Shadowrun editions. SR1 lasted about 3 years before SR2 came out, SR2 lasted 6 years, and SR3 will be close to 8 years old by the time SR4 is out.

And, if you haven't noticed, there are people on these forums unhappy with SR3 on certain points - like decking, rigging, the general multitude of different systems for different situations, etc.

With that in mind, my opinion is that SR4 isn't entirely motivated by profit seeking, and I think it isn't a mistake. It might make mistakes and create new problems that'll piss me off (like SR3 did with its lame changes to SR2's initative), but overall I think it's probably time for a new edition. Advances to other games in the industry have shown how SR3 could be streamlined and refined somewhat.

Your mileage obviously varies, and that's fine. Plenty of people stick to SR2 or AD&D instead of SR3 and DnD3.5.
Demonseed Elite
I can't say I know what the motivation (more likely motivations, plural) is for SR4, but I do know that if I were a new company taking over ownership of Shadowrun and I was the new line designer, a new edition would be the first thing on my mind. Inheriting an old edition from another company means you inherit the problems with it. And if there are going to be problems, I at least want them to be ones I could take responsibility for. wink.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Mar 20 2005, 08:52 AM)
Honestly I'd rather see something like a Design Diary, like the one Monte Cook has (which is actually more like a Design Journal, but you get the idea). It's less a laundry list of dates and more about giving insight into the thought processes that went behind the different rules/plotlines/drekcetera that went into the game.

Did you even read Dave's blog? I mean, the articles and archives (seeing as though Safari was released a long time ago and last I heard he was working on Tiger) listed on the side?
Eyeless Blond
No, actually, which is why I didn't notice it was the same thing until after I posted. smile.gif The description(s) used seemed to indicate it was more like a list of trivial tasks, like "Sent layout off to the printers today" or something equally stupid.
Crimsondude 2.0
Well, "oops" for you, then.
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