Here is a question to get the creative juices flowing!!

In our game on wednesday we were in Germany, My character was the only one who could speak german. All the other characters could not speak or read a word of it.

So my question is, if you were to mind probe someone who didn't speak your language would you understand their thoughts?

I would have thought that they would have thoughts and memories in their own langue and not yours? or will the spell translate the thoughts into your own language?

Even though it was to my advantage in the game, for our shaman to read this guy's mind for information, I still thought that he would not be able to understand it?

Looked in Mits and there is nothing to say about cross language barriers in mind probe?

What do you all think ??

torz xx

As far as actual memories go... like a memory of your parents saying "We love you." No, you wouldn't understand it.

As far as a memory like, being turned down by someone you had a crush on, you won't understand the words, but the feelings that are remembered will convey the situation well.

So, spoken words/etc, no, feelings etc, yes.

Well, without relying on the printed spell description (with the announcement of SR4 I see no reason to invest in the PDF's for SR3 at the moment) I'd say that as these are thoughts yuo are listening in on, I'd say 1 or 2 successes, you need to know german to get any useful information unless the target spoke english or some other common language that the caster also undertands. 3 or more successes and for all intents and purposes the caster is getting the thoughts translated by the magic.

Mind Probe, a philosophical question? Yes, Mind Probe is evil. It should gives you dark side points.

Otherwise, I don't know of any official rules concerning language barrier either, but I could see it going either way at the GM's discretion. It depends on the age old question : What comes first? Language or Concepts?

If you can't think of concepts without language, you can't mindprobe without knowing the language of the guy you are probing.
If you can think of concepts without language, You can mindprobe and your brain will translate his concepts into your language.

I'd go with what makes the best story (and then stick with it for jurisprudence)

Depends on the nature of thought.

Some people think in words.. mindprobe becomes useless if you don't know the language.
Others think in feelings/images.. languages don't matter.
Some think in math. Math degrees matter, but languages don't.
Others think in code..

And some think in multiple different ways.

Which it is? Well, that depends on the specific case.. so, go with the story. If you've got a photographic memory though, just memorize everything and get it translated later

Basically.

Also, heaven help you if you mind probe someone that is unstable or possessed, at least in my games.

The way I read it is low successes mean surface thoughts only and high successes mean you can sort through ALL the victims memories.

To me surface thoughts are in the victims first languge and deeper memories are just that memories, actions and reactions. The same in any language.

The way I play it is I ask the pc what there looking for and go from there. If they start randomly plugging away then it gets harder.

I'm with the concepts come before language crowd. After all, language is jsut a way to convey concepts. You can't convey comething that doesn't exist so language would not have been created if there were no concepts before it.
However, there are many types of languages. People sometimes forget that images are a form of language. A German mage chould see the thoughts of English Speaking persons as a slideshow of concept-related imagery. Insted of hearing the english word gun when the probee thinks of a gun the prober sees a picture of a gun in his mind.

I'd say that surface thoughts encompass the "internal monologue" that most people have when they are actively thinking about something. This would probably be in the native language of the speaker, but not always. If you get 3 or more successes, I'd say you could dig deeper and determine a context around those surface thoughts, reliving memories and emotions to the point where language wouldn't matter nearly as much.

Oh, awesome, there's the basis of my next game. Something about meshing together a ritual mindprobe gone awry with some kind of astral quest puts runners fighting for their lives inside the mind of a madman. Love it.

Anyway, Hyzmarca, I thought the science community was pretty united in saying that language is necesssary for higher thinking. Somebody with a degree correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, Zephania, surface thoughts can be specific images too, doncha think? Like if I'm just looking at a picture and liking it.

But I think that a spell of this nature would have to have some translating aspect to it, because we all use language (even if we use the same language) in slightly different ways. I suggest you interpret the spell mechanics in whatever way works for your game balance.