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phydaux
If a runner has a Smartlink and Cyber Eyes with zoom III, does that offset range penelties when shooting?

My old group always played that it did (2nd ed) but I don't see anywhere in SR3 where it says it does.
Sharaloth
The vision magnification does not stack with the smartlink bonus. If you're shooting something at extreme range, for example, you can either use the smartlink for a TN of 7, or the vision mag. for a TN of 4. Not both.
DrJest
Yeah, you know, I've never understood that. I mean, the smartlink pops a targeting dot on your retina - why would that be impossible to use magnified? To use a (probably dodgy, but all I have) comparison, if I'm playing a sniper in a FPS and zoom in, the crosshairs are still right there at the same size, showing me where I'm aiming.

Never made much sense to me.
Sharaloth
Me either. But this is how I rationalize it:

When using the SL normally, you've got your full field of view, and the targeting dot is exactly where your gun is pointing, making it ever so much easier to hit what you're aiming at. When you're zoomed it, your field of view is restricted to a very small area of what it was before, but the SL is still tracking through the whole field (makes sense, since it's indicating where the gun is pointing).

You can aim inherently at what you're looking directly at, that's what the basic short range TN is all about. So you just aim the gun normally. The little dot is still there, but it doesn't tell you anything more than that your not pointing in the totally wrong direction, so it doesn't really improve things. This is worse at higher ranges. So at extreme ranges the little targeter dot is skittering all over the place as your hand makes slight shifts, providing no benefit at all, and maybe even a detriment.

That's why SL is better or as good as vision mag all the way up to Long ranges, but at extreme it becomes all but useless.
FrostyNSO
I would think a smartlink or laser sight would be neccessaary with zoomed in vision. I.E. like trying to use your iron sights while looking through binoculars.
Fortune
QUOTE (Sharaloth @ Mar 27 2005, 11:44 AM)
That's why SL is better or as good as vision mag all the way up to Long ranges, but at extreme it becomes all but useless.

Useless?

VM3 with Laser sight (assuming the sight extends as far as needed for the range listed. Otherwise add 1 to the TN of Long and/or Extreme Range)
Short Range: 3 Medium Range 3 Long Range: 3 Extreme Range: 3

Smartlink II with Rangefinder
Short Range: 2 Medium Range 3 Long Range: 3 Extreme Range: 5

Not necessarily useless.
Edward
Especially if you try a called shot.

VM3 with Laser sight (assuming the sight extends as far as needed for the range listed. Otherwise add 1 to the TN of Long and/or Extreme Range)
Short Range: 7 Medium Range 7 Long Range: 7 Extreme Range: 7

Smartlink II with Rangefinder
Short Range: 4 Medium Range 5 Long Range: 5 Extreme Range: 7
Sharaloth
all but useless. And I was going off of VM3 and SL alone (No laser sight or rangefinder). It still holds up the same way, though. If you've got VM3 and SL, you want to use the SL up to long ranges and VM at extreme.

edit: Does the SL bonus stack with the SL2 called shot bonus? I houserule it doesn't, but I'm not sure of the exact rules.
phydaux
QUOTE (Fortune)
VM3 with Laser sight
Short Range: 3 Medium Range 3 Long Range: 3 Extreme Range: 3

Smartlink II with Rangefinder
Short Range: 2 Medium Range 3 Long Range: 3 Extreme Range: 5

So for CQB the Smartlink is better, but for long arms VM w/ Laser Sight is better.

But a long arm used at extreme range (like a sniper rifle) would have a scope anyway, so it doesn't matter.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Sharaloth)
all but useless. And I was going off of VM3 and SL alone (No laser sight or rangefinder). It still holds up the same way, though. If you've got VM3 and SL, you want to use the SL up to long ranges and VM at extreme.

edit: Does the SL bonus stack with the SL2 called shot bonus? I houserule it doesn't, but I'm not sure of the exact rules.

No, it doesn't.

TNs for a called shot would be:
VM3 with Laser sight (assuming the sight extends as far as needed for the range listed. Otherwise add 1 to the TN of Long and/or Extreme Range)
Short Range: 7 Medium Range 7 Long Range: 7 Extreme Range: 7

Smartlink II with Rangefinder
Short Range: 6 Medium Range 7 Long Range: 7 Extreme Range: 9
Fortune
Yes it does. You get a +2 TN (instead of +4) for making a Called Shot with a Smartlink II, but still get the -2 TN for using the Smartlink in the first place. It is a specific feature of the more advanced Smartlink II, as opposed to the normal Smartlink.
Tarantula
Checking back, you're right fortune. Ignore my idiocy, (thats what I get for posting at midnight about stuff I haven't looked at in a while).
Edward
QUOTE (Sharaloth @ Mar 27 2005, 10:40 AM)
edit: Does the SL bonus stack with the SL2 called shot bonus? I houserule it doesn't, but I'm not sure of the exact rules.

I think it would if only because otherwise the called shot advantage has no value.

Considere.

Close range called shot
SL1.
Target = 4 base + 4 called shot - 2 smart link = 6
SL2 using called shot advantage but not SL advantage
Target = 4 base +2 reduced called shot = 6

This works out the same at all ranges so I maintain that it should be

Target = 4 base +2 reduced called shot – 2 smart link = 4

That way the called short advantage actually means something.

Edward

Edit. Beaten to the punch, this is what I get for including a detailed reasoning
Sharaloth
hmm. That's what I thought. The houserule remains the same for me, though. And for this, a called shot doesn't have the SL modifier on it at all, except for the SL2's reduction to it. I might change that, depending.

Thanks for the info.
JaronK
Well, by canon the SL2 bonus absolutely works with the basic bonus... otherwise, why would it exist, considering it would do nothing?

After all, a smartlink gives a -2 TN to all shots, called or not.

A smartlink 2 gives a -2TN for called shots, in addition to other bonuses.

If those two didn't stack, the called shot bonus of the SL2 would do absolutely nothing, because the normal -2TN bonus to all shots would completely override it.

JaronK
SpasticTeapot
I personally think that electronic vision magnification and Smartlinks should stack. Just plug the zoom control into the smartlink controller, and you're good to go; the dot moves with you.
However, this does raise problems. Past a certian point, you can't be entirely sure of where your gun is pointing, negating smartlink bonuses.
However, a laser sight still works fine. Heck, you're going to want a laser sight if you're using a sniper rifle anyways. So, here's my suggestion.
Create a peice of cyberware that connects up to cybereyes to locate the red dot of the laser when used. Although this would give you no benifit at short range, at long range the smartlink controller could compare the gun's position to the position of the red dot seen by the cybereye, allowing for full smartlink bonuses. Of course, this would cost essence and only give you a -1 TN modifier over that of a laser sight, but it would also be possible to use, say, a pulsed laser which fires at a very high frequency (making it all but invisible to the target-but not to a cybereye programmed to look for it!) and/or in the infra-red range, if thermalgraphic cybereyes are used.
In other words, the gun sees the sight even if you can't, and projects an accurate shot on you cybereyes even at absurdly high range.
Critias
Being someone that plays his share (and his share, and his share, and his share) of gunbunnies with smartlinks and vision mag, I'd like it if the two stacked, but I can understand why they don't. I mean, base TN 2 regardless of range would make for some fairly obscene shooting, and if a GM tossed in enough situational modifiers to slow down someone with that combo, everyone else would just be blind and useless.

I hate to see things done only for balance's sake, but in this case I think it's fairly necessary. If not, that combo (vision mag + smartlink) would be even more ridiculously mandatory for anyone who ever thinks they might pick up a gun.
Fortune
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
Heck, you're going to want a laser sight if you're using a sniper rifle anyways.

What would be the point? Unless you are always sniping from short range, the laser sight (even the extended version) just doesn't have anything like the range of the rifle.
Edward
Anybody ever build a microwave laser sight and a scop that can see it.

Could be useful. The range on microwave designators is long enough to be useful.

Edward
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Edward)
Could be useful. The range on microwave designators is long enough to be useful.

Yeah, the problem is the fact that you'd have to have some way of seeing the "spot" the microwave designator projects. Missiles and guided mortars can see it because they have sensors that pickup that range of the EM spectrum. I don't know of a canon method, natural or cyber, to let metahumans see in that range.
Edward
I thought I covered that with the microwave scope; the question is what it would cost to create. and wether or not anybody ever tried it,

Edward
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Edward)
I thought I covered that with the microwave scope; the question is what it would cost to create. and wether or not anybody ever tried it,

Edward

My bad. I glossed over the "and a scope that can see it" part.

The thing is, whether it's a laser dot, a microwave dot, or a set of crosshairs in a scope, they all do the same thing. They indicate what's at the other end of a straight line of sight that originates at the end of your scope/laser/microwave emitter, that's all.

As a houserule, I require anyone who wants to use a scope in my game to use at least one "Take Aim" action to do so. The effect of that required Take Aim action is numerically the same as the effect you'd get from a laser sight's dot; the house rule's intent is to model the fact that most all scopes have crosshairs that do the exact same thing as a laser sight's dot does (and no, I don't let the effect of this one required Take Aim action to stack with the laser sight's effect).

Crosshairs in a sight are a lot cheaper than some fancy microwave setup.
Edward
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
QUOTE (Edward @ Mar 28 2005, 03:40 AM)
I thought I covered that with the microwave scope; the question is what it would cost to create. and wether or not anybody ever tried it,

Edward

My bad. I glossed over the "and a scope that can see it" part.

The thing is, whether it's a laser dot, a microwave dot, or a set of crosshairs in a scope, they all do the same thing. They indicate what's at the other end of a straight line of sight that originates at the end of your scope/laser/microwave emitter, that's all.

As a houserule, I require anyone who wants to use a scope in my game to use at least one "Take Aim" action to do so. The effect of that required Take Aim action is numerically the same as the effect you'd get from a laser sight's dot; the house rule's intent is to model the fact that most all scopes have crosshairs that do the exact same thing as a laser sight's dot does (and no, I don't let the effect of this one required Take Aim action to stack with the laser sight's effect).

Crosshairs in a sight are a lot cheaper than some fancy microwave setup.

Interesting logic but I thought that most moderate range snipers (like hostage situation snipers) used both a scope and a laser sight (on a half pulled trigger switch).

The cross hares in the scope are no more effective than the iron sight that is built onto any gun.

Also it means that cyber eye (or goggle) image magnification + laser sight gives you the same bonus without a take aim action as having a scope on a gun (with or without laser sight) witch requires a simple action to aim.

What logic you do have defiantly doesn’t apply to cyber magnification as there is not crosshair available (unless you use a smart link)

To be hones however my scope gets more use casting spells than aiming at targets.

Edward
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Edward)
Interesting logic but I thought that most moderate range snipers (like hostage situation snipers) used both a scope and a laser sight (on a half pulled trigger switch).

There's nothing "interesting" about the logic that both a scope and a laser sight just show you where the weapon is pointing, assuming they're set up correctly. If you had a rifle with both a scope and a laser sight, calibrated for the same range, you'd just see an additional spot of light at the center of the sight, on top of the indicator of the scope. Unless the scope is somehow malfunctioning, this would not help you in any way.

I can't remember ever seeing sniper rifles meant for use by law enforcement or militaries which had laser sights of any kind, even now that the use of infrared lasers combined with nightvision goggles or sights is becoming common for assault rifles.

Requiring a Take Aim action before a scope provides any bonuses is a very good idea. I'm not completely sure if I had such a rule last time I ran modern/post-modern SR, but I certainly will if/when I run it next time.
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