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hermit
In short: how do they stack? the description says the armour spell "generates a barrier that adds to both ballistic and impact armour". Does this imply the spell counts as soft armour, or does it add hardened armour on top of a vehicle?
psykotisk_overlegen
Since it adds its rating to the existing armor the type of armor generated will be the same as the type that is already affecting the target. Thus, a veichle with armor 4 targeted by a force 5 armor spell will function as a veichle with armor 9.
Austere Emancipator
The way I would rule it is that it's soft armor regardless of what it's cast on. In past threads it has been established that it's not a good idea to think about it too hard -- you might run into trouble with characters buying normal clothing with Gel Packs (at negligible cost, providing B1/I1 hardened armor) and then casting Armor-6 on top of that.
Fortune
I agree with Austere Emancipator on this.
Edward
Full magician.
Cash A
VCR
Force 6 sustaining focus (armour)
Vehicle armour +6 to command vehicle.

I rather think not. Although a glowing field around your vehicle really dose scream shoot me.

But Seriously
I would rule that it reduces the power of the weapon by the spells force (halved for AV and APDS) before considering the vehicle armour.

In other words it is soft armour.

I would also rule that no mater what other armour your wearing the armour provided by an armour spell is not hardened. If you want it to be hardened learn the hardened armour spell witch has +1 drain level and only adds half force to hardened armour. (or something like that).

Edward
hermit
Thanks for the replies, guys!

Sounds reasonable. I was wondering since my group's mage knows that spell (being a physad, he doesn't have too many spells to begin with), and after encountering a chimera and losing an irretrievable drone (Branscan), I was wondering if that way, a drone (or, for thatb matter, any vehicle) could get an added layer of protection.

Soft armour makes sense, as does calculating it before the vehicle armour comes into effect. that's nasty enough:

QUOTE
Drone (armour 4) is attacked by someone firing a HMG (11S base damage). Armour 5 is cast on the drone. The effective power level of the HMG drops to 6S; according to the vehicle armour rules, that halves to 3, meaning the drone isn't affected by the attack.


Very effective, even without adding itself as hardened armour.
psykotisk_overlegen
"The armor spell is compatible with all armor types and adds its rating to the rating of the physical armor being worn"
This implies that the armor provided by the spell is the same as the armor the target is currently wearing. "always soft armor" is a house rule.

It is however a reasonable house rule, since this spell would be very powerfull when cast on veichles otherwise.
When cast on anything but veichles it doesn't matter.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (psykotisk_overlegen)
When cast on anything but veichles it doesn't matter.

Yes it does. Consider Gel-packed Secure Long Coat (available at chargen for 3250 nyyen) + Armor-6 vs. 10 rounds of FA HMG fire. If you just added the Armor spell as hardened armor, you'd be immune. If you add it as normal (soft) armor, the guy's still facing 10D.
Spetulhu
Are you even allowed to cast that spell on a vehicle?

And if it's allowed, is it at higher difficulty and risk? It would take a larger field to protect a car than a person, for example. Why should it be as easy as protecting yourself?
psykotisk_overlegen
In order to affect a veichle it would have to be of a force at least equal to
(Object resistance+body+(half armor))divided by two.


Sorry, yes it does makes a difference for things that are not veichles to, thanks for pointing that out. Edit2: but your example is invalid, as gel-packs can't be added to a secure long coat. But i still see your point. (loves to nitpick)


edit: in effect this means that a veichle with loads of armor could only be affected by a really powerfull armor spell. So the only possible magical increase in protection would be a friggin huge one, when the opposite would be IMO the most reasonable. Oh well, such is game balance (and the lack thereof)
ShadowGhost
You can only cast this on Characters (or living things):

QUOTE
This spell creates a glowing field of magical energy around the target that protects against impact and ballistic damage. One success is enough to create the magical field around the character of an Armor Rating equal to the Force of the spell. The Armor spell is compatible with all armor types and adds its rating to the rating of the physical armor being worn.


While 'Target' may be ambiguous, 'around the character' & 'physical armor being worn' are pretty explicit.

You could create a custom armor spell for vehicles.... But I'd hate to see the drain and Target number for it.
ShadowGhost
QUOTE (psykotisk_overlegen @ Mar 27 2005, 04:35 PM)
In order to affect a veichle it would have to be of a force at least equal to
(Object resistance+body+(half armor))divided by two.

Here's where we can spend 10 pages debating the word 'affect'... IMO, the armor spell *doesn't* affect a vehicle (even if you could cast it on a vehicle).... it creates a barrier around the vehicle. The vehicle itself is in no way changed/modified or otherwise 'affected' any more than if you had a troll standing in front with a riot shield to block shots coming at the vehicle.
toturi
Nothing canon to suggest that it is hard or soft. It simply produces a magical field of a certain Armour Rating. By the book, it should stack on top of the Hardened Armour. However, whether it can be cast at a vehicle, it is open to debate.
Tarantula
QUOTE (psykotisk_overlegen)
Sorry, yes it does makes a difference for things that are not veichles to, thanks for pointing that out. Edit2: but your example is invalid, as gel-packs can't be added to a secure long coat. But i still see your point. (loves to nitpick)

Why can't you? CC requirements for Gel Packs are x2/x4 availability, x5 cost, +2 street index. Secure long coat is 3/24hrs, 650•, with gel packs that goes up to, 6/4days, 3250•. Whats the problem?
psykotisk_overlegen
You can't add any mods to securetech clothing.

Edit: so, there's nothing saying that you can cast it on veichles, but if you could it would add to the veichle armor right? And casting it on someone wearing hardened armor would improve their hardened armor, it is not another layer of soft armor.
Tarantula
You're right.

Canonly, it adds directly to the armor rating, if its hardened, it adds hardened, vehicle it adds vehicles, etc.
Mortax
True, but by cannon rules the avg. person weighs 150 kilos.
(Bod 3*50kg). Some rules don't make sense or are game unbalancing. I'd say make it soft armor, as not doing so make it too easy to munchkin.

Just my MHO, I could be wrong. smile.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Mortax)
True, but by cannon rules the avg. person weighs 150 kilos.
(Bod 3*50kg).

Where is this rule in SR3? I have never seen or heard of it.
psykotisk_overlegen
According to canon the average human weighs 70kg, (SR3), I don't know where you pulled that body*50kg from but that's just sick, makes humans range from 50kg to 300kg, with those being in best shape and fitness also bieng the most obese ones. Just sick!


Now, if you're casting on veichles I can see how this is munchkinizing, as you're vastly improving the spells efficiency. (But I guess on second thought that casting it on Veichles probably isn't possible in the first place)

However, casting on any armored or unarmored person I fail to see the problem with letting it be hardened armor for those wearing hardened armor.
Almost all regular armor is legal, completely legal. AFAIK all hardened armor is not only restricted, but is also impossible for civilians to get a permit for. If you're wearing very visible hardened armor and going around with a glowing armor field around you, you deserve a high armor-rating, because you can expect a lot more trouble than anyone else. Not only are you wearing mil-spec gear, you're surrounded by an illegaly high force spell that is visible.

Now, for people wearing normal or no armor, and the armor spell, the benefit isn't to great, but it's still good.
For people wearing hardened and the armor spell, the benefit is great, but they're like a glowing sign saying arrest me.

Limiting this spell when cast on hardened armor would be like limiting the enhance aim (or whatever it's called) when cast on someone using a big gun, because their net benefit of hitting someone with their gun is higher than that of a character with a hold-out.


In short, why houserule "soft armor only" to penalize those willing to put a glowing field around their very obvious and illegal armor?
Bossemanden
If we consider the Armour spell to always be soft armour, then another question arises.
Is the armour spell calculated before or after any hardened armour?

An example:

Brick the Thick is wearing a light military armor (hardened) with rating 7/6 and an armour spell force 5 on top of that.

Someone shoots him with 3 rounds from an Ares HV MP-LMG (6S base staging to 9D).

Either the Light Military armor takes the damage down to 2D (with the armour spell not really helping) or the armour spell drops the damage to 3D which is below half power of the hardened armour, thus effectively doing no damage.

Now does Brick the Thick soak 2D or nothing?
Fortune
It does state that the glowing field of the Armor spell is cast around the subject, so logically it should count first, lowering the power of the attack before factoring the actual worn armor.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Bossemanden)
Brick the Thick is wearing a light military armor (hardened) with rating 7/6 and an armour spell force 5 on top of that.

Someone shoots him with 3 rounds from an Ares HV MP-LMG (6S base staging to 9D).

No matter what, Brick the Thick is unharmed because the base, unmodified Power of the attack is lesser than or equal to the rating of the hardened armor.

Fortune: Yes, that would be logical. And remind me to try the unarmored clothing + Gel Packs + Armor-6 combo in any game you're running. wink.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Mar 29 2005, 06:12 AM)
Fortune: Yes, that would be logical. And remind me to try the unarmored clothing + Gel Packs + Armor-6 combo in any game you're running. 

What would be the alternative?

Note that I am not, nor have I ever advocated that the Armor spell increase hardened armor. As far as I am concerned, it is always normal armor, no matter what the person is actually wearing.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Fortune)
What would be the alternative?

If I got what you're saying right, the alternative would be to count all armor at the same time, and still consider the hardened armor "no effect" limit to be just the rating of the actual piece of armor providing the hardened effect.

For example, consider the above-mentioned unarmored clothing + Gel Packs + Force 6 Armor. This provides hardened Ballistic 1/Impact 1, +6 points of Ballistic and Impact from the spell. If you factor the Armor spell in first, the character is in effect immune to any single shots or attacks with a Power of less than or equal to 7. A SMG burst (7M -> 10S) would, I assume, still do damage to the character according to this application of the rules.

If you counted all the armor at the same time, someone with the above set-up could still theoretically be harmed with a Light Pistol firing normal ammunition.
Fortune
I think that's basically what I meant. I guess I just didn't word it well. I meant that the Hardened Armor wouldn't (or shouldn't) be increased by the spell.

[edit] Looking back, I didn't say anything like what I meant. I always factor the total Armor Rating all at once. To do otherwise would be somewhat silly. [/edit]
Edward
To get a base line what happens when I wear a full form fit suite (4/1) and armed vest with plates and jell packs (5/3 hardened)

I think I got those armour values right if not it doesnít matter; those are the values we will use for the example.

Say I am hit with a shot from a light pistol with a damage code of 6L with 1 net success, I have 5 points of hardened armour and an additional 2 points of soft armour. By prior logic the soft armour on the inside is considered after hardened armour meaning the bullet will penetrate the hardened armour be reduced by the normal armour and I will have to resist -1L (2L).

Now consider the aforementioned armed vest with plates and jell packs (5/3 hardened) with a long coat over the top (4/2) and the same shot. Because the soft armour is on top of eth hardened armour the bullets power is reduced before it interacts with the hardened armour so the modified power is 4(reduced by half 4 for armour layering) as it interacts with my 5 points of hardened armour so the bullet is stoped cold.

Now consider armed vest with jell packs (3/1 hardened) and long coat. Same 6L damage. Before the bullet gets to the hardened armour it interacts with the higher base soft armour on the out side, having its power reduced to 2, now is the hardened armour going to be halved or not to determine wether it is going to penetrate the vest. Alone it could stop a power 3 attack but with armour over the top of it it canít make an adjusted power 2 attack stop.

It is just getting far too complicated. This is my recommendation. Combine all the hardened armour, ignoring soft armour, according to armour layering rules, compare this value to the base power of the attack, if the power is not greater than the armour the attack has no effect. If the base power is greater than the aggregate hardened armour then calculate the total of all armour worn, again according to armour layering rules, and reduce the modified power of the attack by this value. The armour spell will be considered soft armour for this purpose.

Vehicles that want an armour spell cast on them can go jump in the lake, I donít want to deal with it any more.

Edward
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Edward)
To get a base line what happens when I wear a full form fit suite (4/1) and armed vest with plates and jell packs (5/3 hardened)

"A gel-packed armor item cannot be layered with other armor." cc.53 The problem is specific to the Armor spell combined with hardened armor items.

QUOTE (Edward)
It is just getting far too complicated. This is my recommendation. [...]

Agreed, that's basically what Fortune and me were trying to say.
Tarantula
And, according to the armor spell, it simply increases the value of the armor worn by its force, effectively making it hardened armor.
Fortune
It increases the value of the armor worn, but it does not specify that the increase is also hardened. The spell is simply too ridiculously powerful if that were the case.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Fortune)
It increases the value of the armor worn, but it does not specify that the increase is also hardened. The spell is simply too ridiculously powerful if that were the case.

The spell increases the value of the existing armor. It does not add a separate layer of armor. It does not say it works only on soft armor, nor does it say it does not work on hard armor.

By a literal reading it adds it's rating to whatever type of armor is worn, if that's hardened, then its hardened. If it's soft, then it's soft.

I fail to see any ambiguity in the wording of the spell as written, it simply adds it's rating to whatever is worn, that's pretty straight forward.
psykotisk_overlegen
Agreed,
But the result is a spell that is very powerfull when cast on characters wearing hardened armor.
Edit: And many will say: too powerful
Fortune
QUOTE (BitBasher)
It does not add a separate layer of armor.

QUOTE (Armor Spell)
This spell creates a glowing field of magical energy around that protects against impact or ballistic damage.


A literal reading does indicate that the spell provides a separate layer of armor.

QUOTE (Armor Spell)
One success is enough to create the magical field around the character of an Armor Rating equal to the Force of the spell.


Note again the use of the wording 'magical field around the character', indicating a separate layer of armor. Also note that it states Armor Rating equal to Force, and not Hardened Armor rating equal to Force.

QUOTE (Armor Spell)
The Armor spell is compatable with all armor types and adds its rating to the rating of the physical armor being worn.


Note that it does not state that it adds to specific properties or characteristics of the worn armor, like whether it is Hardened, or non-conductive, or fire resistant. Merely that it adds it rating to the rating of the worn armor.

Besides all that, my point was, as I said, the spell would be ridiculously powerful if it just added Hardened Armor equal to its Force.
toturi
Ridiculous or not, by the book, the Armour spell adds to the rating of the physical armour worn. If that armour is Hardened, so be it.
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