I just don't see any good reason for using the canon machine pistols. Why take recoil for damage that equals a standard heavy gun? Is my opinion wrong? Have any of you had success with them? Please let us know!

Should I bother voting?

I think you forgot to put the choises on different lines or something.

Well, that is one way to skew results...

Well, I voted!

I think (in the spirit of the thread) that Machine Pistols would probably be favoured by those who want to intimidate joe public.

Think about it - from a layman's point of view, they are just very small, concealable machineguns.

Facing a robber with one of those would scare me much more than some tiny snub nose revolver.

Make sense?

I like the Steyr TMP. It fires in any mode and I like to use it FA for suppressing fire.

Nods to above. Theyre very useful when getting lead in the air is more important than having a big damage code. Searching fire, supression fire, simply using it on burst to make dodge harder, or just using full auto to get attacks on more targets per turn are all reasons to use it over a normal pistol. Not to say there isnt some tradeoff in damage etc, but there are times when theyre nice to have on hand. Im not sure it could ever replace a heavy pistol as the default gun for a typical runner, but several times Ive packed one of these alongside the mainstay heavy pistol.

My Ork rigger uses an Ares Crusader - it comes with 2 points of recoil comp and his strength of 6 gives him another point so his 1st burst is at no more penalties than firing a Heavy Pistol (apart from range). The 2nd burst will be at +2 more recoil than the second shot on a HP however.

The benefit is that it is harder to dodge a burst, and if ammo looks to be in short supply he can start shooting single shots and make that 40 round clip last a lot longer!

actually, it's not just laymen that view them as small submachineguns. what d'you think a micro-uzi would be? what about the new generation of extremely compact PDWs?

in response to the question, machine pistols are useful because you can pack a relatively high volume of fire into a pretty low Conceal. they're good for surprise, in other words.

we play some rule that if you are in a B class or better security zone lone star will hassle you if you are sporting anything bigger than a light pistol. we've seen a few machine pistols float around in our campaign.

Bear in mind that against soft, unaugmented targets, machine pistols are fine things.

If you load one with APDS, it'll make the average runner sit up and take notice (before diving for cover).

But when you play with things that most runners play with, light pistols and machine pistols just don't cut it.

Especially considering all the other gear they have to haul around, weapon and gear choices need to be as flexible as possible to deal with all possible contingencies.

-Siege

How did you manage to make a poll with only one option? I tried that once and it gave me a snarky message about how a poll with no choices isn't much of a poll...

In SR3 and CC, there are a total of 3 machine pistols - the Black Scorpion, the Ares Crusader, and the Steyr TMP. I will abbreviate them BS, AC, and ST.

Machine pistols all have the same damage and legality rating - 6L and 5-G. Base damage is important because weapons that do Light damage can't harm vehicles without being loaded AV rounds. Legality because they are ALWAYS illegal, you simply can't get a permit for them.

The BS is by far the worst of the lot statistic-wise. A 35-shot clip is the only brightspot on this otherwise dark piece of equipment. Only capable of firing SA/BF, a pathetic conceal of 5, a weight of 3 kgs...Who designed this? The fact that it gets 1 RC from a stock doesn't matter, with CC you can add a retractable stock to any SMG-sized or smaller weapon for 200 nuyen and no conceal loss(Assuming you use the gun modification version instead of the gun accessory version). It may be the cheapest machine pistol(...By a whole 50 nuyen, 100 with street index), but it's much more expensive than the legal, lighter, equally-concealable equally-damaging Ares Predator. It's availability is 5/36, equal to the...

AC. A slight improvement over the BS with a conceal of 6 and a clip of 40, it also weighs .25 kgs more. It also costs more, 100 nuyen without and 200 with street index. It comes with a gas vent II, but if you want to use a machine pistol for damage, that's actually a downside compared to the BS in that it(obviously) means you can't mount a Gas Vent IV, install a retractable stock, and personalize the grip for a nice 6 RC. It also means a suppressor can't be installed. But, if you need a somewhat concealable gun that isn't the AVS, personalize the grip, install the retractable stock and call it a day. It's still decidedly inferior to the...

ST. Now THIS is a machine pistol. SA/BF/FA, 30-shot clip, conceal 6, a weight of 2, what's not to love? It's cheaper than the AC by 50(100 with SI) nuyen but more expensive than the BS(50/100). It may be 8/48 hours with an SI of 2, but it's worth it if all you've got is Pistols. It's the most concealable stock gun design in the books that is capable of FA. It's also notable that you can't create this weapon with the CC weapon design rules because machine pistols can normally only have SA/BF, BF/FA, or BF, not SA/BF/FA. This is the only machine pistol worth a damn.

The one thing I haven't mentioned yet is that they all MAY be more useful against high-combat pool dodging targets(Such as dark one's with tactical computers, adepts with lots of combat sense) than their SA brethren due to the fact that the raise the dodge TN.

That is my Brief Stupid Analysis. Criticize and enjoy.

A very good run through. In my group, the Steyr TMP actually beats out the preditor for number of users, just because I love using bad guys combat pools and cover. (i.e. They want to be sure if they hit it, it goes down.) However, I view the machine pistols to have three advanages:

1. Endurance:
Out of all the guns, the MPs clips can be streched the longest in a pinch. The 40 rounds of an Ares Crusader can last seemingly forever if you are using it in SA mode. This is used most often for cover fire (fireing just so they don't get idea's about coming out from behind thier cover) instead of damage, but it's still a niche they fit.

2. Power:
A flip of a switch and they are Ares Preds with a minus to dodge. See the comentary up top.

3. Compactness:
They are (the AC or ST are, the BS is just that) on the whole, more compact than Preds andd able to match them per pound of power. A stripped down one of any of the above can be smuggled in by just about anyone with a concealed holster and a long coat.

and the Steyr TMP has one adittional catagory:

4. Multi-purpose:
It can now fill any roll a SMG can as well! Keep it at FA and spray, or use as a pred, or as a light pistol with a REALLY big clip... And being able to pull off a 15D shot is just so helpful. All in a nice, compact form that's small than a pred.

Points taken, however I have a house rule involving extra ammo capacity, that gives it a conceal penalty. I also limit all custom fire arms.

Also, the ST can be used for surpression fire, and my players like them because they make dodging harder.

I'm not trying to sell them as replacement for heavy pistols (indeed, everyone in my group packs a pistol or heavy pistol of some type) by they are not, per say, useless as some have suggested.

BTW, the average set up in my group:
ST with folding stock/barrel weight/Silencer. The silencer is carried detached until inside target area, or carried attacked if situation permits.

Load 'em up with Tracer ammunition and use the rules for Searchine Fire, and you're OK

A bit off topic, but heh. A few weeks ago, my friend bought a pair of Ingram SuperMach thinking that they were the Heckler and Koch 7M SA/BF/FA thingos. When he discovered that they were supermachine guns with a base of 6M, he pitched a fit. I bought them off him at a substantial discount and rigged them out with a bunch of Recoil Compensation, SL-2 and Laser Sights. Now loaded with Tracer ammunition and using the rules for Searching Fire, we have the perfect riot-suppression equipment

Intimidation is good. Which is the only thing I use them for.

Actually I use them as a GM for equipping terrorist and other assorted criminal types that enjoy high body count. It is great for hosing down a room full of hostages and it forces the SWAT rescuers to be either very very good or step in front of the lead to save hostages. Load with APSD for better results.

Sorry about the poll guys. I clearly didn't know what I was doing. But thanks for your opinions.

TMP is brutal. Remove the safety on that monkey, and hose people in the suprise round.

Excellent point - The machine pistol is an excellent intimidation weapon, perfect for gangers without decent connections for bang-bang.

Basically, I'd only ever use them if I had no other choice, but I think throwing a good dozen or so of these into the posession of the local gangers is a _great_ way to really make the players pause.

Especially if they know the place and the people.

Yes, for terrorist actions, they're much better than pistols, but assault rifles tend to be more de rigueur. And it makes great copy!

Machine pistols are liek sliver guns- against unarmored targets they do great damage but against real players, they don't hack it. We use them for scare tactics, when you want lots of noise and panic among the general public.

I don't see why the Ares Viper Slivergun should be a bad weapon against Runners. IF you have a Smartlink you can adjust the Choke to get a TN2 in nearly every situation. It has a damage Code of 9S(F)=9M, Conceal 6 and an integral sound surpressor. This makes it like a good Heavy Pistol. The fact that the TN to resist drops to 2 too is no problem, because you can get many successes and give a 12S damage to your opponent...
BUT the (stupid) dodge rules give the AVS an edge: If you fire bursts the TN to doge goes up AND the use of flechettes makes it higher too. So no dodge at all...

I don't like the AVS because its too munchy.

Yeah, shotguns fire Buckshot which is much different from Flechette.

The basic difference simplified is simular to the difference between a shaped charge and a claymore mine.

D.o.d.d, could you explain that analogy please?

I believe Buckshot and Flechettes used the exact same rules.

As an aside, do you guys interpret the AVS firing a cluster of fletchettes at once, or is each "shot" actually a short burst of very small rounds?

Who needs machine pistols? Just get a regular .40 S&W Glock and add a Fire Selector System to get something that can do this.

I'm talking pure logic in that comparasion. Not rules or anything else. It's not an analogy of anything.

A flechette round works like a claymore. In fact, a claymore is little more than a oversized shotgun shell. Many beads are flung in a direction at high velocity. Each one is miniscule in effect, but combined in the hundreds (700 something in claymores) they are utterly destructive.

I've always thought of flechettes as a series of needles which focus the damage onto the needles points, which acts like a shaped charge, doing damage by forcing everything onto one point and in one direction instead of spreading it over a larger area. Unfortunatly, such a design work best when colliding head on, for the increased force and smaller area to destribute the force it is much more vulnerable to deflection (aka. the armor rules). This is one reason shaped charges have to be placed with such care.

Edit: Sorry, I've just been told that I'm thinking of 'Shaped Charge Warheads', which create a jeat of heat to melt through armor. Everything else is still the same.

Okay this was the part i was missing. If the AVS has no choke then it is not as good as i feared. BUT if it has no choke, how are the TNs affected by the flechettes? No TN-Modifier for the AVS? Or is it like Choke 2, 6 ,10? I remember reading in Cannon Companion, that the T-250 can just have a maximum choke of 6...

Flechette ammo does jack for anything involving shooting unless fired from a shotgun. All it does is change the damage code up a letter against an unarmored target, or use double the impact armor if not unarmored and that value beats ballistic. Basically the target is hit by a bullet fragments designed to tear and cause more trauma. Not a cloud of shrapnel, a small cluster of bullet fragments.

Flechette ammo from a shotgun is treated differently. In this case it counts as buckshot, and fires enough to create a cone of effect; this is where choke rules come into effect. Most full shotguns can have choke from 1 to 10, sawed-offs or some pistol sized ones are limited to 6 which is where youre getting that number.

The only TN to hit mode possible from an AVS is the +1 dodge tn penalty for shooting a busrt at the target, same as with any other burst fire capable gun.