Full Version: programcarriers+wireless matrix link= hacker?
i think the topic says it all
Program Carriers Cause Cancer.
Well, my thoughts on this are both similar and dissimilar.
For the vast majority of users, they will not be carrying anything beyond their "simrig" and a wireless hookup device (note that their simrig may be digital contact lenses and 'trodes). All their programs, all their computer memory, all their Matrix services will be accessed directly from the Matrix. In essence, a virtual computer.
To put this in SR3 terminology.
The user has a direct and permanent connection to their host, which might be their home telecom or a rented host somewhere else. This direct connection is analogous to a VPN in RL or something akin to a PLTG. This host computer runs whatever functions the user wants, from a calculator to word processor to e'mail and so on. It it also their gateway to the Matrix. By opening a vanishing SAN, they can connect to other hosts, such as Furniture Galaxy or what have you. This connection is only open on demand. Then we have service connections, such as Music Stream, where a dedicated SAN between the users host and the service is created. The most common service would be Augmented Reality, where the user's host receives geographical cues and information. Of course, on top of this you might have broadcast beacons, in which stores and people would directly extrude information, but I'd rather have all of it filtered through the grid and host. But with this set up, the only reason to carry programs or a computer is if you expect to be cut off from the grid.
For the vast majority of users, they will not be carrying anything beyond their "simrig" and a wireless hookup device (note that their simrig may be digital contact lenses and 'trodes). All their programs, all their computer memory, all their Matrix services will be accessed directly from the Matrix. In essence, a virtual computer.
To put this in SR3 terminology.
The user has a direct and permanent connection to their host, which might be their home telecom or a rented host somewhere else. This direct connection is analogous to a VPN in RL or something akin to a PLTG. This host computer runs whatever functions the user wants, from a calculator to word processor to e'mail and so on. It it also their gateway to the Matrix. By opening a vanishing SAN, they can connect to other hosts, such as Furniture Galaxy or what have you. This connection is only open on demand. Then we have service connections, such as Music Stream, where a dedicated SAN between the users host and the service is created. The most common service would be Augmented Reality, where the user's host receives geographical cues and information. Of course, on top of this you might have broadcast beacons, in which stores and people would directly extrude information, but I'd rather have all of it filtered through the grid and host. But with this set up, the only reason to carry programs or a computer is if you expect to be cut off from the grid.
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Mar 29 2005, 10:36 PM) |
| Program Carriers Cause Cancer. |
and that was a excuse by the writers as they where becoming more popular then the deck...
atleast thats the impression i have gotten, i never played SR1...
and to kanada; while i follow your thinking and i can see someone with a system like that, a decker (i will continue to call them that until SR4 is out) will want to carry his stuff with him. anything else should be stored in a safe deposit box or similar where no questions are asked so to make sure that he dont risk compromise as someone traced his setup and infiltrated it. next time he access it then a black ICE pops up and start feeding on his brain...
and vpn connections dont exist in SR (sadly?), atleast not yet...
i think that's kinda bulky, kanada. if i'm in China, i don't want to have network delays accessing the online menu of the restaurant i'm at because my home computer is in Seattle (granted that SR3 mechanics don't account for lag; i'm mixing SR3 and real life, here). i think it makes more sense to carry your host computer around in your pocket, and connect to that through your datajack. that way, your pocket computer can open connections to nearby hosts on the fly--the downtown Seattle router, for instance, which connects to Music Stream, etc.
I wonder if when they say they'd eliminated Decks, they mean no more Simsence? I am not sure how you could be mobile with a SimRig running, you've be falling over and vomitting all the time.
Eliminating that and you'd surely descrease the size (and cost) of the wireless computer needed to login and get things done. Highly portable, just jack-in, logon, and do your biz.
Eliminating that and you'd surely descrease the size (and cost) of the wireless computer needed to login and get things done. Highly portable, just jack-in, logon, and do your biz.
| QUOTE |
| I am not sure how you could be mobile with a SimRig running, you've be falling over and vomitting all the time. |
Which is why I've been saying over and over again that it must somehow integrate reality and simsense. It takes the incoming senses and adds simsense and then feeds that to the brain.
| QUOTE |
| i think that's kinda bulky, kanada. if i'm in China, i don't want to have network delays accessing the online menu of the restaurant i'm at because my home computer is in Seattle (granted that SR3 mechanics don't account for lag; i'm mixing SR3 and real life, here). i think it makes more sense to carry your host computer around in your pocket, and connect to that through your datajack. that way, your pocket computer can open connections to nearby hosts on the fly--the downtown Seattle router, for instance, which connects to Music Stream, etc. |
I still say it can be done with a virtual host on the Matrix. Its physical location is irrelevant.
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Mar 29 2005, 09:23 PM) |
| I am not sure how you could be mobile with a SimRig running, you've be falling over and vomitting all the time. |
Up to this point, simrigs have done one thing: recorded sensory data. Both external senses like sight and hearing, and internal senses like which of your muscles are contracting and what position your body is in. (Really fancy simrigs also record emotive states).
Moving around with a simrig running is something that happens on the set of any simsense production. Heck, even one of the components of a smartlink implant is a limited form of a simrig, so moving around with a simrig running is something many shadowrun characters are already familiar with.
What you may be thinking of is how can you feed a simsense signal into the brain without shutting down the natural sensory feeds. Thing is, this happens all the time too, under the current tech. The smartlink uses simsense to put it's crosshair in the user's field of vision. "Moodchip" BTLs feed simsense into the brain that consists of nothing but an emotion track, and "Personafix" BTLs feed a simsense signal into the brain that makes the person react as if they were another person, and under both, the user is fully mobile.
Where the "Augmented Realtity" comes in, is that they would use some sort of simrig-like technology to determine what you're looking at, like a product on a store shelf, for instance, and then use a simsense feed to put an image into your brain that corisponds to what you're looking at, like say a little blinking neon sign that appears to be hovering in space next to the product that reads "Buy Me".
Of course, that particular application of "Augmented Realty" might cause vomiting anyway, but because well, it's invasive advertising, not because you have a simrig recording your sensations while moving, or that you're getting simsense pumped into your brain at the same time as your natural senses. One can only hope that they let your friendly neighborhood "Hacker" install spam filters for you.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| if i'm in China, i don't want to have network delays accessing the online menu of the restaurant i'm at because my home computer is in Seattle |
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Mar 29 2005, 11:15 PM) |
| I still say it can be done with a virtual host on the Matrix. Its physical location is irrelevant. |
Sounds like you're both talking about Grid computing. If you've used SETI@Home or Folding@Home, you'll know what I'm talking about. Not only is your data stored 'somewhere' (its location varies depending on who in the complex has the most bandwidth and storage), but the CPU cycles being used to process the data are also distributed (depending on who's got spare cycles and their latency relative to your jackpoint).
So maybe you've got a bare-bones major domo system that you carry around with you that acts mainly as a PDA and process manager (an iCog, if you will) The iCog is your key to the grid network; it knows how to access your data, as well as how to request processing cycles. If you need work done, you ask your iCog to issue the digital equivalent of a request for bids: "I need to process 500 megapulses of XML data, looking for every instance of the phrase 'Oscura', in 5 minutes or better". The iCog then parcels out the work to multiple bidders, CPUs with cycles to spare. They all work in parallel, and return the results to the iCog. The manager then displays the results to you.
| QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) |
| I am not sure how you could be mobile with a SimRig running, you've be falling over and vomitting all the time. |
huh? how so? people run around with their smartlinks active all the time, with no ill effects--that's simsense. for that matter, what about driving a vehicle with a datajack? the virtual dashboard is simsense, too. what you're talking about only applies to full sensorium replacement, not additions to your existing senses.
that's pretty much what i'm talking about, Spookymonster. if you wanted to skip the pocket computer thing, you could have a virtual host that stays with you all the time, that has no base unit. it's the immobile base unit that i think doesn't work, not the virtual host part.
i think, really, that you could combine what we're talking about. normal users don't need much in the way of processing power; a wireless uplink is plenty--their virtual host, which i will now refer to as an icon (since it's basically analogous to SR3 Matrix icons, but with expanded functionality) draws processing time from public-access computers as they walk down the street (as well as any pay-access computers in the area whose service they've signed up for). occasionally, their icon would forward all of their stored data (song lists, emotes, chatlogs, address books) to a host that's physically closer; for instance, if you hop an international flight from Seattle to China.
those who require a bit more oomph--hackers--would have their pocket computers, which would store the bulk of their icon's data and handle a lot of the basic tasks their icon requires, for increased stability. their personal data would stay right there in their pocket computer, though there's no reason why they couldn't also have floating storage as well.
I think maybe I found a little sneak peak into the "augmented reality" thing. Check out SOTA2064, page 138-9, the Link Clubs section. Augmented reality is mentioned in the article. If this is what they are talking about, at least in the 6 years before SR4 style, maybe it gives us a little heads-up about the hacker deal.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| Ii'm in China, i don't want to have network delays accessing the online menu of the restaurant i'm at because my home computer is in Seattle (granted that SR3 mechanics don't account for lag; i'm mixing SR3 and real life, here). i think it makes more sense to carry your host computer around in your pocket, and connect to that through your datajack. that way, your pocket computer can open connections to nearby hosts on the fly--the downtown Seattle router, for instance, which connects to Music Stream, etc. |
Doesn't that depend on the paradigm through which you access the augmented reality/matrix?
If your access is mediated by a service provider, for example, then what's stopping the AR access being treated like a "roaming" service for cellphones?
When I go to visit my in-laws in Italy, I have no lag or other problems using my cellphone, because it's connected to the Italian cell network. Of course, calls still cost a bomb (even though the phone company is the same one, go figure), but that's how corps work, neh?
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
huh? how so? people run around with their smartlinks active all the time, with no ill effects--that's simsense. for that matter, what about driving a vehicle with a datajack? the virtual dashboard is simsense, too. what you're talking about only applies to full sensorium replacement, not additions to your existing senses. well. |
I know others have commented on this so, I'll try and sum up my point here:
The "Total emmersion" aspect of pre-SR4 decking is what I am referring to. I never really understood how "feeling" simulated "computer things" makes you perform better in the Matrix. I do think pure DNI vs. Terminal control would be better, but I don't see how floating around weird non-normal environments and then simulating various sensations makes Decking any better. That's where my real beef is.
Smartgun-type sim-rig, sure. Current SR3 "tune in, turn on, drop off into Cyberspace" no.
Viva la revolution!
ah, okay. yeah, you're not going to be able to replace your full sensorium and still run around and shoot at people. that would be insane.
i can see your point grinder, and i kinda share it. cracking open a host comes from understanding how the host works and poking for flaws in the setup. the vr gui bit is more for the deskjockey in the office doing everyday searches and similar. rather then having remeber what icon on the desktop they need to access to enter search mode and then how to phrase their search to find what they are looking for they can just virtualy walk over to a file cabinet and start looking into it to look for the file he is after.
still, with the right setup a decker could id a ICE based on its apperance and sounds as the deck samples the signals coming in from it, feel the speed of the download as a wave of goosebumps running uop his hand and so on. basicly use all the senses rather then just his visual and therefor allow the brain to paralell prosess more info.
sure you can fill your screen with diffrent terminals but you can only focus on one at a time. the terminals can use visual and audio clues to hint that it needs your attention but that means you have to break your focus on the current task and move to a diffrent one. but if you where reading a file and suddenly you get the smell of smoke then you interpet that as a ICE trying to blow your powersupply away, or feel the burning touch of acid as a ripper goes to work.
looking for a weakspot on the hosts entrance? slide your hand over it and if you feel a bump or hole thats not visualy there then maybe your deception util have found something
the fact is that the human brain is better at picking up movement, basic shapes and sounds than it is to interpet text on the move. i think its only the best of the best deckers that can handle raw terminal feeds. the rest are so used to the vr gui that they are lost without it. yes they understand the underlying tech but they are used to interpeting it in the vr enviroment.
programming done visualy and tactile by plugging together bits and pieces, like building lego. debugging is done visualy by color coding areas that are faulty. and by feeling the area of the code marked you may be able to pick up where it failed as it sticks out like a metal edge on a blown engine block.
right now the gui is still a text enviroment, its just that we have splitt it into 101 virtual screen rather then one crolling one. you still id unknown icons by the text description close to it. the thing is that we are still only using one sense, vision. by using touch and maybe smell one can smell the age of the file by how dusty it smells. one can figure out the size of the file by its weight and so on.
you have to take all the small things you do allmost without thinking about it in real life and apply it to the vr enviroment.
yes the rest will be eyecandy but hey, so is the windows, mac and other guis. i learned my way using the dos commandline and i still use it and similar at times but i can see how a gui helps other people use the enviroment. 99% of the vr gui will be there to help the office desk slave, not the decker. but the decker may leave it on, if for nothing else, out of habbit.
still, with the right setup a decker could id a ICE based on its apperance and sounds as the deck samples the signals coming in from it, feel the speed of the download as a wave of goosebumps running uop his hand and so on. basicly use all the senses rather then just his visual and therefor allow the brain to paralell prosess more info.
sure you can fill your screen with diffrent terminals but you can only focus on one at a time. the terminals can use visual and audio clues to hint that it needs your attention but that means you have to break your focus on the current task and move to a diffrent one. but if you where reading a file and suddenly you get the smell of smoke then you interpet that as a ICE trying to blow your powersupply away, or feel the burning touch of acid as a ripper goes to work.
looking for a weakspot on the hosts entrance? slide your hand over it and if you feel a bump or hole thats not visualy there then maybe your deception util have found something
the fact is that the human brain is better at picking up movement, basic shapes and sounds than it is to interpet text on the move. i think its only the best of the best deckers that can handle raw terminal feeds. the rest are so used to the vr gui that they are lost without it. yes they understand the underlying tech but they are used to interpeting it in the vr enviroment.
programming done visualy and tactile by plugging together bits and pieces, like building lego. debugging is done visualy by color coding areas that are faulty. and by feeling the area of the code marked you may be able to pick up where it failed as it sticks out like a metal edge on a blown engine block.
right now the gui is still a text enviroment, its just that we have splitt it into 101 virtual screen rather then one crolling one. you still id unknown icons by the text description close to it. the thing is that we are still only using one sense, vision. by using touch and maybe smell one can smell the age of the file by how dusty it smells. one can figure out the size of the file by its weight and so on.
you have to take all the small things you do allmost without thinking about it in real life and apply it to the vr enviroment.
yes the rest will be eyecandy but hey, so is the windows, mac and other guis. i learned my way using the dos commandline and i still use it and similar at times but i can see how a gui helps other people use the enviroment. 99% of the vr gui will be there to help the office desk slave, not the decker. but the decker may leave it on, if for nothing else, out of habbit.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Mar 30 2005, 11:59 AM) |
| i can see your point grinder, and i kinda share it. cracking open a host comes from understanding how the host works and poking for flaws in the setup. the vr gui bit is more for the deskjockey in the office doing everyday searches and similar. rather then having remeber what icon on the desktop they need to access to enter search mode and then how to phrase their search to find what they are looking for they can just virtualy walk over to a file cabinet and start looking into it to look for the file he is after. [...] you have to take all the small things you do allmost without thinking about it in real life and apply it to the vr enviroment. yes the rest will be eyecandy but hey, so is the windows, mac and other guis. i learned my way using the dos commandline and i still use it and similar at times but i can see how a gui helps other people use the enviroment. 99% of the vr gui will be there to help the office desk slave, not the decker. but the decker may leave it on, if for nothing else, out of habbit. |
I think it's really all about Hardware and Software and that the Matrix should really be nothing more than is a nice presentation medium for the SR computer age. I can definitely see how the highly visual nature could help, but I just don't really see how getting sensory feedback is going to help you Sleaze your way into Aztech's front door.
As I mentioned, I do see obvious bonuses for being pure-DNI vs. other methods, just not how "feeling the matrix" would help. I suppose you could say something like "you are the machine" and that you, "think and feel" in different terms, but how bizzaro would that be? You may have sensory inputs and emotions, but your intuition and learned behavior would be pretty useless considering you a now a new "matrix entity".
Of coarse without sensory feedback, things like Black IC don't get to kill you, but I am sure power surges and things of that nature would work just fine. This would also remove SR-Matrix from other Cyberpunk-like ideas and concepts.
well the thing is that in the end the vr gui dont give any direct bonuses for doing stuff in the matrix. you still have to rely on your skill and your utilitys.
only real diff is that a brain to machine interface when done correctly (if a proper feedback loop, not like today where you have to focus on a cursor on the screen) it can theoreticaly speed up the users responsetime as he dont have to move physical objects around.
but yes, most of the matrix is just nice windowdressing. helping the not so computer literate to navigate and visualise the loads of data going everywhere.
and like you say, it would remove one of the key pillars of the cyberpunk part of shadowrun...
only real diff is that a brain to machine interface when done correctly (if a proper feedback loop, not like today where you have to focus on a cursor on the screen) it can theoreticaly speed up the users responsetime as he dont have to move physical objects around.
but yes, most of the matrix is just nice windowdressing. helping the not so computer literate to navigate and visualise the loads of data going everywhere.
and like you say, it would remove one of the key pillars of the cyberpunk part of shadowrun...
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