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torzzzzz

Here is one for you....... what's the deal with criogenics in 2065?

Is it big business or has it been shelved? don't you think it would be a good idea to get youself frozen and out of the way when things get abit cetchy? Or some big boss mogul needs to get out of the way for a few years, would make a good run to go and thaw a boss for cash?

Torz x biggrin.gif
DrJest
Brindell wouldn't be planning a neat way of skipping the 2065-2070 period, would she? biggrin.gif
torzzzzz
mmmmm ....... now you mention it??

torz x wink.gif
Ol' Scratch
With Genetech being able to recover from just about any type of disease or injury if you have enough cash, and Leonization being able to reverse the effects of aging, I doubt if cryogenics are still around save for eccentrics who want to "jump into the future" or the like.

Afterall, those who could afford cryogenics can just blow their cash on the previous two and continue about their daily business. Virtual immortality trumps sleeping your way into the future.
RangerJoe
Hey, after sleeping your way to the top, it makes sense to sleep your way into the future....

/Corporate mentality.
mmu1
Wouldn't it be possible to (if you were rich enough, anyway) develop a magical ritual that placed the subject in suspended animation? If so, it'd definitely be better than being frozen...
Edward
Even the best modern cryogenics today is not actually workable. The cryogenic proses actually would kill you.

The biggest problems are that the water in the cells expand bursting every sell in the body, the chemical they use to mitigate this is moderately poisonous (and they use a lot)

glycerine is what they use I believe (going of old science show), it is used in the frozen storage of single celled yeast in the brewing hobby, you expect a 50% death rate among the cells, this is acceptable in a yeast sample, even if you store it for longer than the recommended 5 years a 90% death rate among 100 thousand sells still leaves 10,000 viable cells witch if properly cared for will grow perfectly. The problem is many cells donít absorb enough glycerine and burst when you frees them, many more absorb to much and are poisoned.

This is fine for samples of single celled organisms for relatively short periods of time. A complex organism will be harder to get an even application of glycogen or whatever else you choose to use, the death of 50% of cells evenly or in groups threw out the brain and other tissues of a complex organism (fish, mammal, reptile, bird) will be catastrophic, guarantied death, even 1% would probably kill if not leave massive brain and other tissue damage.

Lastly there is the problem of restart, even if you defrost the body with no cellular damage electrical activity in the brain is zero. You would need to develop some way to restart the brain comparable to a heart starter (that will not damage the brain), but even a defibrillator wont work with 0 activity, it puts the erratic jittering of the heart into a normal productive rhythm. If the heart has actually stoped a defibrillator will do nothing (without medical instruments there is no way to tell the difference).

If these tequniques had been developed a lot of things would be different in eth SR world. The first change would be in the biowear industry, clinics that perform biowear implant surgery will no longer have mashies to grow or maintain living tissue, they will store all implants in a freezer and defrost as required.

Operations can be much longer if the patent is put into cryogenic suspension first (3 days is perfectly acceptable) this would create the surgery option cryo surgery cost multiplier *rating+2 affect surgery lasts one additional day per rating, target number for surgery reduced by rating as surgeon may take his time, consult texts or colleagues during the surgery an even go home to bed halfway threw, max rating surgeons biotech (surgery) skill.

Personally I wont believe crio-suspension is practical until somebody takes a multy cellular organism such as a rat or frog in perfect health and freezes it for longer than it could survive without food an water and then produces the animal alive and scurrying around. Preferably without brain damage)

Edward
Syd
It seems reasonable that cryogenics would be feasible in the 2060's. Say you pump the body full of glycerine (or whatever else) to minimize the crystallization, and upon thawing, use nanites or specially engineered microorganisms to consume the glycerine. Use some of your favorite genetech and/or nanites to repair as much damage as possible, and fire 'er up. Replace defective parts with cloned bits or 'ware, and better than new.

Now you could argue that cryogenics would never work, given the metaphysical reality of Shadowrun. Once you're frozen, you're dead, and the soul would be long gone. Personally, I think it would be pretty cool to center an adventure or two around the PC's meeting someone from the 1980's. Maybe reviving the body after so long _would_ bring the soul back, but it would be angry and disjointed. Maybe the soul learns some crazy stuff out on the metaphysical planes.
hermit
Isn't there deep space (as in, interplanetary) space travel in Shadowrun? Or do they keep the astronauts in Simsense envorinments and their bodies in coma tanks like in Alien?
Garland
QUOTE (Syd)
Maybe reviving the body after so long _would_ bring the soul back, but it would be angry and disjointed. Maybe the soul learns some crazy stuff out on the metaphysical planes.

And if your gaming group hasn't seen Event Horizon you've got a plot already written for you...
Syd
QUOTE (hermit)
Isn't there deep space (as in, interplanetary) space travel in Shadowrun? Or do they keep the astronauts in Simsense envorinments and their bodies in coma tanks like in Alien?

Target: Wastelands is the only book I know of with much discussion about space. The entire section on deep space (beyond the moon) is on page 84. Summed up:
- a NASA manned mission to Mars in 2011 which failed
- a Yamatetsu Mars mission to be launched in 2063
- an Ares manned mission to Europa (orbiting Jupiter) to be launched in 2064
- the Helios station in solar orbit, exactly opposite the Earth

I'd doubt they'd put astronauts in coma tanks for those rides, since fusion would provide a pretty snappy journey (compared to 2005).
DocMortand
QUOTE (Garland)
QUOTE (Syd @ Mar 31 2005, 12:53 PM)
Maybe reviving the body after so long _would_ bring the soul back, but it would be angry and disjointed.  Maybe the soul learns some crazy stuff out on the metaphysical planes.

And if your gaming group hasn't seen Event Horizon you've got a plot already written for you...

Don't worry, you're with us now. *heh*
Aku
QUOTE
- the Helios station in solar orbit, exactly opposite the Earth



how BIG is this thing in order to sustain it's own, independant orbit around the sun, being a mostly air filled station (as opposed to what amounts to a relatively solid rock aka earth). but still not get sucked into an orbit around venus?

this just doesnt seem feasible to me.
Syd
QUOTE (Aku)
how BIG is this thing in order to sustain it's own, independant orbit around the sun, being a mostly air filled station (as opposed to what amounts to a relatively solid rock aka earth). but still not get sucked into an orbit around venus?

this just doesnt seem feasible to me.

I'd guess it periodically does rocket burns to correct for gravitational tugs, just like terran satellites do.
hermit
Also, this station will requite routine resupply runs - for example exchanging irradiated, radiation-sick, almost dead astronatus with new ones ... you know just what kind of stress solar radiation will put on a human being. And thus, there IS deep space travel after all.

Oh, and fusion power might make space travel faster, but we're still talking *years* here.
Shockwave_IIc
Ok this is whre i prove that i'm stupid. Being that the earth only takes a year to round the sun, Helios to stay on the other side would take the same. so even if you just took a "step off" the earth and stayed put it would take only 6 months for helios to get to you, cause you'd have to something about your zero Velocity compared to Helios and what it's doing.
hermit
Helios is on Earth's height? Thought it was closer to the sun ...
Capt. Dave
On Cryogenics...

Keeping a cool head

My brother-in law, a software developer, wrote the programs for an Atlanta cryogenics company, similar to the one above. Apparently, they can freeze you, but currently have no way of reanimating a person with the current technology.

Surely, in 60 years, they would've fixed that problem. I pity the poor guy that emerges from the year 2000 into the Fifth World, though. wobble.gif
Shockwave_IIc
What happens if they express while in cyro??
Herald of Verjigorm
The tube breaks.

(ignoring complications such as frozen cells not having the metabolic capabilities neccessary to rebuild the human form into a troll)
Nikoli
QUOTE (Capt. Dave @ Mar 31 2005, 03:37 PM)
On Cryogenics...

Keeping a cool head

My brother-in law, a software developer, wrote the programs for an Atlanta cryogenics company, similar to the one above. Apparently, they can freeze you, but currently have no way of reanimating a person with the current technology.

Surely, in 60 years, they would've fixed that problem. I pity the poor guy that emerges from the year 2000 into the Fifth World, though. wobble.gif

I'm just down the road from those guys.

Also, that would suck.

*ding*
Tube slides open, you are greeted by a young, woman maybe, but she has tusks and her skin is a pigmentation you don't recall possible when you were sick.
"My name is Lydia, do you remember yours?"
...
some awkward conversation later, you get a pain in your whole body, like it's trying to turn into a pretzel, tendons first.

"Oh dear, we weren't expecting a UGE. Medical team to the reanimation room, stat, code white, I repeat, code white. Please, sir, remain calm. This is normal, though not for you."
hermit
"This is normal, though not for you!"

Oh wow, how to scare people the RIGHT way. biggrin.gif

I guess they'd put an Elf into the wake-up chamber. Also introduces the reanimated to the 6th world, and propably wouldn't shock them that badly. Unless they put in a Night One or Wakiyambi, that is. wink.gif
mmu1
QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc)
Ok this is whre i prove that i'm stupid. Being that the earth only takes a year to round the sun, Helios to stay on the other side would take the same. so even if you just took a "step off" the earth and stayed put it would take only 6 months for helios to get to you, cause you'd have to something about your zero Velocity compared to Helios and what it's doing.

Um... I'll be nice nyahnyah.gif but you can't just "step off" Earth and stay behind - you'll keep moving around the sun unless you expend the energy to a) come to a halt and b) avoid getting pulled towards the sun. You might as well fly out to Helios.
hermit
Well you could leave orbit and orbit the sun opposite to Helios' direction ... that'd arguably be the fastest way. Gather additional speed by riocheting around Luna, and maybe it'd really only take you a month or so ...
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (mmu1)
Um... I'll be nice nyahnyah.gif but you can't just "step off" Earth and stay behind - you'll keep moving around the sun unless you expend the energy to a) come to a halt and b) avoid getting pulled towards the sun. You might as well fly out to Helios.

I know that! Otherwise you could just step of any moving vehicle without needing to worry about a serious case of roadrash.

I was just using that as an example to show that it wouldn't take years.
mmu1
QUOTE (hermit)
Well you could leave orbit and orbit the sun opposite to Helios' direction ... that'd arguably be the fastest way. Gather additional speed by riocheting around Luna, and maybe it'd really only take you a month or so ...

Yeah... But space travel is all about available reaction mass (at least these days), and the longer, slower trip is usually more practical than a shorter one as a result - because the amount of reaction mass required to first leave earth, reverse direction in orbit, get close to Helios, then decelerate again to have a null velocity relative to it would be huge, and there's a limit to how much a ship can carry.
Syd
Europa (the most remote of SR's space locations) could resonably be acheived in 8 or 9 months. 2001 A Space Odyssey puts the journey at 257 days. NASA's proposals for nuclear (fission) missions to Mars in the 2010-2020 timeframe are 4 to 6 months. I would assume by 2060 that would be somewhat shorter.
hermit
QUOTE
Yeah... But space travel is all about available reaction mass (at least these days), and the longer, slower trip is usually more practical than a shorter one as a result - because the amount of reaction mass required to first leave earth, reverse direction in orbit, get close to Helios, then decelerate again to have a null velocity relative to it would be huge, and there's a limit to how much a ship can carry.

Assembling the deep space ship in space (or on Luna) would certainly help ... as it is said, the worst part about space travel is getting into orbit. And I was thinking of an ion drive powered by a nuclear reactor/fusion reactor and chemical boosters to maneuver only. But yes, I guess the long run would still be a tad more practical. Unless you can refuel from Luna, saving most of the horrendous costs for putting fuel into the Earth's orbit ...

QUOTE
2001 A Space Odyssey puts the journey at 257 days.

2001 also way overestimates today's computers' intelligence. nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE
I would assume by 2060 that would be somewhat shorter.

I dunno, ion drives offer only so much thrust, and I doupt that'd change significantly in the future.
Vuron
While you can flash freeze and revive very small body mass animals (like frogs etc) the problem is freezing the human body rapidly enough is just not doable. The varying rates of freezing with the body pretty much destroy tissues in larger animals. Even if you can by some miracle of science sustain the body long enough to place extremely cold substances throughout the body in order to acchieve even flash freezing the ability to defrost the body is also extremely difficult.

Simply put cyrogenics is extreme psuedoscience.
Fortune
QUOTE (hermit)
I guess they'd put an Elf into the wake-up chamber. Also introduces the reanimated to the 6th world, and propably wouldn't shock them that badly. Unless they put in a Night One or Wakiyambi, that is.

Elves and Dwarves are born ... they don't Goblinize. There has not been one case anywhere in canon where a human goblinized into an elf or dwarf, even with SURGE.
mmu1
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 1 2005, 07:09 AM)
I guess they'd put an Elf into the wake-up chamber. Also introduces the reanimated to the 6th world, and propably wouldn't shock them that badly. Unless they put in a Night One or Wakiyambi, that is.

Elves and Dwarves are born ... they don't Goblinize. There has not been one case anywhere in canon where a human goblinized into an elf or dwarf, even with SURGE.

I'm pretty sure he means the person doing the meet & greet of the newly-defrosted, not the defrostee. (as opposed to the orc someone suggested.wink.gif)
Nikoli
That'd be me what suggested it
Fortune
QUOTE (mmu1)
I'm pretty sure he means the person doing the meet & greet of the newly-defrosted, not the defrostee.

Ah, you're probably right. It's just that I've seen couple of references to elves goblinizing in the last few days, and really had the urge to set things straight.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Simply put cyrogenics is extreme psuedoscience...

Never stopped anyone from trying. I even made a write-up for Seattle Supplemental for a cyrogenics slash incinerator funeral parlor, should that ever appear. My thought is that people will pay to be frozen for reasons beyond just possible resurrection. Being preserved, perfectly, is something humans have long tried to accomplish. And with shedim, freezing might be a solution... or a nightmare. vegm.gif
hermit
QUOTE
Elves and Dwarves are born ... they don't Goblinize. There has not been one case anywhere in canon where a human goblinized into an elf or dwarf, even with SURGE.

Well yeah, but that doesn't stop elves from working there, does it? I didn't mean the person in the tank to be the meta, but the person greeting them in the 6th world. A charming elf certainly could soothe the initial shock somewhat ("Hi, I'm Nichole, welcome to the sixth world! Oh, my ears? You should see some of the other people!").

The guy must be an Orc or troll or appropriate metavariant to goblinize. I know as much. smile.gif
Fortune
And I admitted my mistake in my last post. But as I said, some people apparently don't know as much, as I have seen numerous references to goblinized dwarves and elves here at Dumpshock, including a couple in the last few days.
hermit
Sorry, overread.

Anyway, yeah, I have encountered that too, even in my gaming group. Ah well. You just gotta tel'em. smile.gif
Fortune
That's cool. After all, I originally misinterpreted your post. wink.gif
SirBedevere
hermit wrote:
QUOTE
ion drives offer only so much thrust, and I doupt that'd change significantly in the future.


It's not the thrust as such that's important hermit, but what's known as the Specific Impulse. That's thrust per unit amount of propellent. The thrust of an ion engine is small, but it would be possible to have the engine working throughout the journey building up quite a velocity. That would keep the time down.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (torzzzzz)
Is it big business or has it been shelved? Don't you think it would be a good idea to get youself frozen and out of the way when things get a bit cetchy?

Although it wouldn't work for deep space missions, why not use the Petrify spell? Cast and quicken it and you're set. Lot less expensive than cryogenics I'd expect and a lot less resource intensive since you don't need any special storage. I'm fairly sure that you don't age when you're under but can't be a hundred percent positive though.
mmu1
QUOTE (SirBedevere)
hermit wrote:
QUOTE
ion drives offer only so much thrust, and I doupt that'd change significantly in the future.


It's not the thrust as such that's important hermit, but what's known as the Specific Impulse. That's thrust per unit amount of propellent. The thrust of an ion engine is small, but it would be possible to have the engine working throughout the journey building up quite a velocity. That would keep the time down.

Well... Half the journey, anyway. If you spend one half of it accelerating, you'll probably have to spend the other half (roughly speaking, since you can use gravity wells to accelerate and decelarate too) decelerating if you plan on "stopping" relative to your final destination.
SirBedevere
Yes, obviously. I forgot to mention that, thanks for clarifying it.
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