Astelaron
Apr 1 2005, 05:35 AM
According to Magic In the Shadows initiates have access to the metaplanes. Anyone who has access to the metaplanes may go on an astral quests. They give several examples of quests an initiate can take. One of the quests allows a mage to aquire a number of dice equal to the quests rating to the test to learn a spell as well as lowers the amount of karma required to learn the spell by the quest rating. So in theory an initiate can learn every spell in the SR books at force two and nearly no cost or risk. This seems overpowered to me on one level but it's not much worse than someone with skill wires pirating active softs.
Do the GMs out there allow their players to learn every spell in the book using this method or do they come up with some way to limit them?
toturi
Apr 1 2005, 05:33 AM
Overpowered as opposed to learning every spell at Force 2 Exclusive at chargen?
Herald of Verjigorm
Apr 1 2005, 05:33 AM
It's game time and play time expensive. Also, you need a formula to learn a spell, even if you make the formula yourself.
Astelaron
Apr 1 2005, 05:52 AM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Overpowered as opposed to learning every spell at Force 2 Exclusive at chargen? |
At charachter generation you have to at least spend building points to get the spells. After a mage becomes an initiate they can learn all the common spells at low force for next to nothing. It'll take the average mage 6 to 8 hours per spell to learn them add to that the time to complete the astral quest.
| QUOTE |
It's game time and play time expensive. Also, you need a formula to learn a spell, even if you make the formula yourself.
|
You can steel the spell formulas that are published on the matrix but it does seem to be very time expensive. Still, Learning a spell is time expensive to with or without the astral quest. Spending a little time on the astral quest just lets you learn the spell for free and potentially makes the learning go much faster.
Fortune
Apr 1 2005, 06:40 AM
| QUOTE (Astelaron) |
| At charachter generation you have to at least spend building points to get the spells. |
No, actually you don't. At least, not according to Rob Boyle, who answered this very question for me a while ago.
| QUOTE (Rob) |
To play devil's advocate first, it clearly says that when you learn a limited spell you reduce the Karma cost by the modifier, so there is nothing that says you must pay a "minimum of 1 Karma/Spell point."
Does this mean a GM should allow magicians to start off the game knowing every spell at Force 2, with the exclusive limitation? Of course not. Sure, sometimes there are loopholes in the rules mechanics like this, but the GM always has final say and shouldn't allow players to exploit them.
In my opinion, there are two ways to handle this:
1) Simply say all spells have a minimum cost of 1 Karma to learn, no matter the limitations (this could also apply to spells learned via astral quest).
2) Allow some spells to be learned at 0 Karma, with limitations. In most cases, this will be fine, since the spell is low Force and limited in how it can be used (and a good GM can make those limitations count). This certainly does not mean you should allow starting characters to abuse this and begin with every spell at Force 2 (exclusive), though--that's just ludicrous. Has the character really devoted that much time in his or her life to learning a bunch of piddly spells? Unlikely. That's a situation where the GM just needs to draw the line and say no.
I personally lean towards option 2. It makes sense to me that magicians had to spend time to develop their skills, and so they probably learned a minor, limited spell or two as training somewhere along the way. Y'know, before they learned that Force 6 mass-murder fireball.
:: Rob Boyle ::
Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC |
Straw Man
Apr 1 2005, 07:14 AM
I've always used the minimum-cost, along with the house rule that any spells achieved over the rating of the spell are thrown out. That keeps things fairly reasonable, since it makes resistance rolls easier, and thus makes the spell less useful.
The key is keeping an eye on the sheets your players are handing in. I'm a big fan of customization and pushing the limits, but there comes a point when it turns into exploitation.
Capt. Dave
Apr 1 2005, 08:06 PM
I have no problem with "free" spells. I actually suggested to a player of mine who has a hermetic that he take a few spells for free at chargen.
So far, nobody has taken all the spells in the book, or even taken that many free spells. I don't usually impose limits on these types of things, because I don't have to.
Crimson Jack
Apr 2 2005, 02:52 AM
Indeed. While I do have to deal with a particular player that pushes the envelope when it comes to acting the munchkin, even he's never tried to start the game with a character with all spells at force 2 exclusive. I think even he thinks that would be lame, storywise.
Edward
Apr 2 2005, 08:44 AM
We don’t allow an astral quest to reduce the karma cost below 1.
At char gen you must pay spell points equal to the karma cost of a spell. A force 2 makeover spell with eth exclusive limitation has a base karma cost to learn of 0. So it doesn’t cost any spell points to learn. It would be a reasonable thing to say min one in that case as well. My personally limitation is no more than twice the points of force.
Lastly I believe another use of a astral quest was to acquire a spell formula, the target number being equal to the force of the spell. Thus for the low low price of 2 rating 5 astral quests and 1 point of good karma you can learn a force 5 spell.
Edward
DragginSPADE
Apr 2 2005, 04:07 PM
My group uses the one karma minimum cost to learn a spell.
Generally we don't have a problem with magicians using astral quests to learn spells cheaply. After all, with the absurd amount of karma magicians need for everything else, if they're willing to risk themselves and provide with GM with great role-playing opportunities in the process, more power to them.
Edward
Apr 3 2005, 01:30 AM
How often do you actually roll play an astral quest. We almost never have the time to do so, my GM doesn’t even bother rolling for any below force 4.
Edward
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