He was a great man, he was well-loved and shepard to all his flock.
For those people who is going to say that this thread has nothing to do with SR, here's something for you.
Full Version: The Pope is dead.
| QUOTE (Threats 2) |
| Sanctissima Trinitas, unus Deus, miserere mei nunc et in hora mortis meae. Amen |
With the SR Pope pushing 100, do you think maybe SR might imitate real life?
Whatever our opinion of religion, the Church or his conservative stances, we have lost a tireless man of peace.
On the game side, a GM can develop a lots of plot hooks from a situation like this one... Trying to infiltrate the debates of the College of Cardinals during the election process after the SR Pope passes away would be an incredibly difficult job, based on today's security levels (the Swiss Guard, ECM around the Sistine Chapel, etc..) Just the fringe activities before, during and after the conclave could keep a team of runners busy for months, regardless of their location.
Is there anything in canon that mentions Church doctrine on regenerative treatments ? 100 years old for a Pope might not amount to much of a problem if His Holiness can hop into a tank for a few months !
On the game side, a GM can develop a lots of plot hooks from a situation like this one... Trying to infiltrate the debates of the College of Cardinals during the election process after the SR Pope passes away would be an incredibly difficult job, based on today's security levels (the Swiss Guard, ECM around the Sistine Chapel, etc..) Just the fringe activities before, during and after the conclave could keep a team of runners busy for months, regardless of their location.
Is there anything in canon that mentions Church doctrine on regenerative treatments ? 100 years old for a Pope might not amount to much of a problem if His Holiness can hop into a tank for a few months !
Not that I know of, but...Someone sufficiently knowledgable in modern doctrine could tell you pretty easily.
My understanding of the Theology of the Body is kinda sketchy, but...
I would argue it would not be approved of. It's cheating death, plain and simple. Ordinary medical care is fine, even obligatory.
Leonization, though...? No, no, no. That would be cheating death. Life is not ours to give or take, but God's.
(Do we have a theologian in the house?)
My understanding of the Theology of the Body is kinda sketchy, but...
I would argue it would not be approved of. It's cheating death, plain and simple. Ordinary medical care is fine, even obligatory.
Leonization, though...? No, no, no. That would be cheating death. Life is not ours to give or take, but God's.
(Do we have a theologian in the house?)
| QUOTE (Pinel) |
| Whatever our opinion of religion, the Church or his conservative stances, we have lost a tireless man of peace. On the game side, a GM can develop a lots of plot hooks from a situation like this one... Trying to infiltrate the debates of the College of Cardinals during the election process after the SR Pope passes away would be an incredibly difficult job... |
Bah, all you need are some soccer hooligans.
Glad to see someone saw Eurotrip 
| QUOTE (Pinel @ Apr 3 2005, 09:15 AM) |
| Is there anything in canon that mentions Church doctrine on regenerative treatments ? 100 years old for a Pope might not amount to much of a problem if His Holiness can hop into a tank for a few months ! |
Nope. There isn't even anything that clearly states whether or not the Pope should be kept alive in a persistent vegetative state (nor whether that would be considered an abdication).
I'm just glad that JPII didn't have to suffer through the throes of Vitas like he did in SR.
| QUOTE |
| Leonization, though...? No, no, no. That would be cheating death. Life is not ours to give or take, but God's. |
Could that doctrine change in a fictional universe subjected to dragons and magic ? I don't have too much trouble imagining a charismatic Pope "seizing the throne" for longer than his natural lifespan by invoking some sort of religious martial law. It's a stretch, but a simpler complication would be the conclave electing (or being manipulated into electing) an elf as the new Vicar of Christ. His Holiness Florian I for the next couple of centuries, anyone ?
| QUOTE |
| There isn't even anything that clearly states whether or not the Pope should be kept alive in a persistent vegetative state (nor whether that would be considered an abdication). |
Considering Papal history, I don't think anything short of a dangerous infectious condition would precipitate an abdication or replacement of the Pope (I don't have the material - how quickly was JPII replaced after catching VITAS ?). The waning years of many papal mandates were tremendous opportunities for cabals of cardinals to run the show from behind a senile leader. If I ever decided to run a campaign based in Italy, I'd make a couple of powerful cardinals the primary patrons of runner teams - "My faithful ones, you are God's soldiers in the shadows !"
Actually, I believe John Paul II himself has made a statement on such conditions. Something to effect of 'extraordinary means' are not necessary (though not forbidden), while 'ordinary care' should not be ceased unless there is zero hope of recovery.
This link is perhaps the least politically charged one I could find on the issue. I just hope this doesn't turn into a political flamefest here.
This link is perhaps the least politically charged one I could find on the issue. I just hope this doesn't turn into a political flamefest here.
| QUOTE (ES_Riddle) | ||
Nope. There isn't even anything that clearly states whether or not the Pope should be kept alive in a persistent vegetative state (nor whether that would be considered an abdication). I'm just glad that JPII didn't have to suffer through the throes of Vitas like he did in SR. |
Yes there is. This Pope did in fact come out in favor of prolonging life. That was the whole mess with Terri Schiavo in Florida. The whole possiblity of cyberwear alone could be used to keep him going.
ok, so I'm not quite current on Catholic tradition (I'm a protestant) but given that JPII spoke out against genetic research as far as human embryos, and cloning, pretty much all of the major genetic manipulation research that goes on outside of agriculture, I'd have to say that currently the Catholic church would frown on leonization due to its effect on the body, (messing with what God "wrote" so to speak) and how I believe it came about. however, the Papacy has a lot of power, and so the reining Pope may decare that treatments to slow/stop ageing is a "gift from God" and say that it is OK. as far as keeping a pope alive in a vegetative state, that would IMO show a lack of faith in the cardinals, they should have no problem with the Pope dying after medical care attempts to save him, but I don't think that they would put him on life support, given that at his age, the end was here, there wasn't anything else to be done. If anyone knows something I don't on this please say so.
I like that idea about having cardinals being the patrons of a runner team. It's happened before
I like that idea about having cardinals being the patrons of a runner team. It's happened before
Mmm... Technically the Pope is professionally committed to the notion of Providence - God's will and all that. On the other hand (and this is not intended to be a criticism or a flame, before any hardline Catholics get up in arms) there's the Popemobile - that buggy with the armoured glass protecting the Pontiff? If the Church can justify that, I wonder if they could justify life extending treatments?
Heh - What kinda of nuyen would be given for runs to take out potential candidates for the new Pope?
I performed a short memoriam in my church (I'm Presbyterian, didn't make a big deal about it) for the Pope as well.
I performed a short memoriam in my church (I'm Presbyterian, didn't make a big deal about it) for the Pope as well.
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) | ||
Yes there is. This Pope did in fact come out in favor of prolonging life. That was the whole mess with Terri Schiavo in Florida. The whole possiblity of cyberwear alone could be used to keep him going. |
What the Pope said was that you had to keep tube feeding and hydrating someone in a PVS. If JPII himself had slipped into a coma with no chance of recovery, there was no clear direction on how far to go to keep him alive.
Very simply:
God takes you.
Some dope with a gun doesn't.
More realistically...Assassination *is not* considered covered under such policies.
Any Pope accepts death...But that doesn't mean they're morons or suicidal.
Death through disease, illness, age, etc....happens. Cheating natural death is a nono, and that's what Leonization does. You can use medical care, but only up to a certain point.
Death through violence is an entirely different matter. Violence is an act of human free will, and one may certainly protect against *that*.
It is, however, a valid question, and a damn good one.
God takes you.
Some dope with a gun doesn't.
More realistically...Assassination *is not* considered covered under such policies.
Any Pope accepts death...But that doesn't mean they're morons or suicidal.
Death through disease, illness, age, etc....happens. Cheating natural death is a nono, and that's what Leonization does. You can use medical care, but only up to a certain point.
Death through violence is an entirely different matter. Violence is an act of human free will, and one may certainly protect against *that*.
It is, however, a valid question, and a damn good one.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.