What do you think Otaku should be in SR4? Do you even want them in SR4?

Personally, I'd love to see them become a new type of magician, using their abilities in a very specialized way. Mages use their Magic attribute one way, Adepts use it another way, so I'm sure there is room to have more variants.
However, I suspect I will be pretty much alone on that one. So, Let's hear your opinion!

I dislike Otaku... Magic is better out of Matrix...

Hey Garuda, at the time I write that, I see you already have a friend thinking just like you.
That's not me anyway. I voted for adult playable otakus, because kids don't really belong in a shadowrunner team IMHO.

I voted the same as mike, but with a caveat. As I see it, adult otaku would really fit into a runner team and the darker theme of SR if they were all undergoing the Fading. However, unlike years previous, it is apparently possible to keep from Fading via this Dissonance thing, which is an interesting angle. What *is* the Dissonance, anyway, and where/what books is it referenced? Maybe all PC otaku should by default serve the Dissonance, with whatever advantages/restrictions that implies, rather than the Resonance?

More than that, adult Otaku should be really rare, so even if they were allowed there should be mechanics to reflect that. Maybe you can allow Otaku undergoing Fading to still undergo Submersion as well (make it a little Karma-cheaper too, so it's actually *less* expensive than a mage's initiation as it's already nowhere near as good)? This would add a little desperation to adult Otaku, as they try to Submerge enough to stave off the slow erosion of their powers.

I only know of the Fading by reputation, but it strikes me as a really crappy thing to do to a PC. "Here's a neat character type you can play, but you'll lose all your abilities and invested karma in a few years and just be another decker type." And if you accept the novels as canon - which I believe they're intended to be, correct me if I'm wrong as I don't know for sure - then the explanation for the Fading (that adult minds are incapable of the flexibility of a child and cannot use Channels) is already nullified by the existence of some adult otaku out there.

No surprises I voted for adult playable otaku

Otaku != magic.
I really dislike the idea of making the Otaku another kind of magician, because it would completely undermine what little consistency (!) the SR magic system currently has, IMHO.

I voted for adult Otaku - they're a part of SR canon, so I don't see any way to get rid of them that won't strain suspension of disbelief, and I don't really like the idea of the Fading as an inevitable weakening of the character - it's not consistent with what happens to everyone else (SOTA rules notwithstanding, since they're optional).

Really, really dislike otaku. They're okay for an occasional NPC, if your game has a heavy anime flavor, but make no sense in a gritty cyberpunk game.

I have an idea! Maybe they can have their own optional book. It can be called "Anime Crap" and it can also include optional rules for Changelings and Full Conversion Borgs (ala BattleAngel). People can buy it if they want it and it can never be referred to in any other Shadowrun book ever again.

i voted for adult otaku. i'd like to throw in a vote for no magical otaku, as well. i don't think otaku should be too "weird"; as it stands, they're within the bounds of the believable. they should remain so.

Sometimes I hate my NDA.

I'm still sticking with my original theory that they're just a different type of magician who "astrally project" into the Matrix, and here's to hoping they'll be adults as it was always incredibly lame how they were stereotyped into little kids. But... I think my views on all that are fairly well known.

Definitely hoping that they get kept as kids, with the alien, dysfunctional aspect played up. I would absolutely hate to see adult Otaku running around; the fact that kids don't belong on a Shadowrunning team is, to me, the entire point.

~J

Fucking stupid, rediculous Otaku.

Ruining the genre is one thing. Maybe that's forgivable. But ruining it with -Otaku-. Fucking please.

Give them the axe. Repeatedly.

-RM

I voted for adult otaku, but that isn't really accurate. I would like there to be adult otaku, but still utterly socially alienated as the kids are supposed to be. IMO if otaku are allowed as player character, they should have a disadvantage even more extreme than incompetence for all social skill, something along the lines of them not being able to learn them and being at an additional +2 when defaulting. Beyond that, the player would be expected to roleplay that in all situation, which would be hard but could make for a cool character if the player, GM, and rest of the team were up to dealing with such a thing. Mostly I like Otaku as NPCs, but they can make very cool PCs if everyone is up to it. Even adult Otaku would not belong on a SR team, because they are not equipped to work well with others outside their kind, personality wise they should still be fairly child-like. Certain AI created otaku could be exempt from the social flaws above. but that would take a massive backstory and a GM who wants to make that the core of their plot. I'm also in the group of "highly opposed to them being magicians."

For reference, information on the Dissonance is in Threats 2.

I don't care for Otaku personally, IMO, they add a bit more fantasy that I like. They remind me of a lame anime where the 7-year-old becomes the hero. Bleh.

I haven't read a ton of cyberpunk, but is Otaku purely an SR construct aside from the obvious Japanese culture reference or do they exist in some novel as useful characters?

i think that if otaku are going to remain a playable 'race', then they need to be altered. as it stands, it's just about impossible to play one in a regular game while remaining true to what otaku are supposed to be--dysfunctional, antisocial rejects who associate almost exclusively with their own kind in the meat. they've become the drow of SR--almost every otaku i see played is the different otaku, the one that "grew up too fast" (cry me a river for their lost childhood), who basically acts like an adult in a kid's body.

i think otaku are neat. i like them as they are. but as they are, they're not playable, despite the hard work of DE and others.

on the subject of magical otaku, here's why i think the idea is terrible: it's too easy. it's pat. it's simple. otaku are not a thing which should be easy. the environment which creates them is mentally scarring and wrong. otaku are inhuman, their thought processes rewritten to function more like machines; most people wouldn't survive the trauma an average otaku's been through. otaku survive by distancing themselves from the meatworld as much as possible, repressing all of reality the way some trauma victims repress bad memories.

and the punchline to that is "it's magic"? hell no.

You know... I liked otaku better when they were less common and more of a street myth, like your ghost in the machine stories, or AIs. Like in the Denver box, when they're just brought up in shadowtalk and nothing solid is presented on them.

I voted for keeping the same, but they need to have the rules clarified. Plus the paths need to be defined and maybe adding some new ones. The otaku make matrix easy for new gm's and those who have fear of it.

Screw them - i don't like them and don't want them.

Naw Count Zero was different. He was a teenager rather than a kid and he had a cyberdeck. The closest I can think of is the Tad Williams Otherland books, which are not entirely cyberpunk. There is a group of kid hackers in that series (I forget the name) that are good (but not mystically different good).

A lot of Otaku are teenagers too.

~J

Silly idea struck me. You know who some otaku probably grow up to be? Marshall Flinkman. The guy's a technological supra-genius, but a complete social putz. A nice guy, just utterly inept once you pull him away from the computer.

Another take on the socially inept is a character I'm fleshing out for a SR short that I'm vaguely working on. An ex-otaku decker. Mostly she seems to keep it together, kind of tactless but her team let it slide because they know where she came from. I've got a scene in mind... let me sketch it out here:

...did you read the book, dude? the loa were fragment personalities of an AI. nothing mystical to them, beyond the usual quasi-mysticism asssociated with artificial life. it was no more mystical than Ghost in the Shell.

and, as i recall, the changes made to her brain involved creating new connections between various brain-parts with advanced cybernetics--even less mystical that SR's otaku.

Yeah, the changes in her brain were implanted organic circuitry, basically.

I wanted to Vote something along the lines of 2, but I couldn't because I wanted to get rid of fading. So that would suggest 3 no? But I don't want Adult Otaku either. Go figure.

Dr J that little snippet is cool, Be nice to join in your game, but alas i don't drive and live too far away.

I think this is one topic we really can't speculate on at this time. Firstly, the Otaku are fundamentally tied to the Matrix - which just got replaced. Who knows what will happen?

Secondly, the freelancers have been making muffled sounds behind their gags, which makes it pretty clear that *something* is happening in this field.

instead of the Fading, you have the Cancer. QED!

I was expecting something like that.

Cancer is so 20th century, though. Why not have each Otaku really be a carrier for Ebola-Plus, and their immunity to it ends in their early twenties, allowing it to infect them and spread to the population at large?

~J

Something along the lines of no fading for the "adult" Otaku but no advancing that way, if your playing one your stuck at a crap lvl from the outset, however if you start at a low age, you advance to near uber lvls and then stop.

In both examples you can still use your powers you just can't advance and better yourselfs at. The fact that to advance you have start a kid will be a "natural" stop gap the "adult" Otaku influx that i would like to avoid.

See a crompise (to my liking) of the two options i was stuck between

I'd be in favor of an Echo that stops Fading that keys off a previous Echo like one of the new Metamagics like Attunement. An Echo that Red Wraith had discovered or was granted by Mirage(perhaps).

Also I would like an end to the Otaku-Magic speculation. Perhaps they can introduce an Awakened Otaku.

hiss. you heathens don't understand otaku.

I just want a character that if by some shear fluke of luck stays alive for a few years won't make all my hardwork worth naught.

i don't mind the adult otaku thing. it's the magic otaku thing that we hatesss.

See, the thing is that they aren't magicians per se. They just function in ways similar to one, so there's no reason not to just have them use similar rules (especially if you're trying to streamline the system). They astrally project/perceive, they initaite, they join magic groups, they learn metamagic techniques, they summon spirits, they cast spells, and they all around quack just like a duck. So why complicate things by coming up with a completely different and alien ruleset when one already exists?

I agree with you to a point there, Doc. But you also have to be careful, because existing rules on many aspects of magic characters have no real basis in Matrix interactions. Like anything having to do with the astral. You have all sorts of rules on astral combat, astral tracking, astral barriers, signature, background count, etc. which just don't really have anything to do with the Matrix. If you just apply them broadly to otaku, then you have a situation where deckers can't interact with otaku in the Matrix, because deckers sure don't use astral-like rules.

Some differences are mandatory, I imagine. But the core could/should be the same, especially since most of the balancing factors to gameplay already exist. Traditional deckers have to worry about memory size, processing power, and all that goodness... but otaku have to worry about drain and self-willed "spirits." That sort of thing.

They shouldn't get rid of Otaku entirely, since many people like them the way I like my magician characters. However, I personally don't have any use for them in my games, so I'd rather they not expand the Otaku's place in the world.

Otaku should be separate from magic. My gm allowed my otaku to be mage, but this has caused me so many problems. Lave them separate but clean up and add more paths. The paths should be explained like the paths of magic are.

Gibson wrote about them in a very obfuscatory way, leaving the genuine revelations until very late, so it's not surprising you remember it as being more mystical than it was

I think Otaku, by far, are better left as NPCs. But just as there is always someone that wants to play a Drake or a Shapeshifter....

most of gibson's stuff is worth re-reading at least once. 'specially the first trilogy.

i think otaku, as they stand, work a lot better as NPCs. i don't think there's anything inherently "NPC" in the basic concept of someone who has funky mind powers that let them interface with computers, possibly in exchange for a psyche that's cocked up in one way or another. i think it's the in-character mechanism for their--and i hate to use the word--awakening that makes them largely unplayable as PCs (at least, largely unplayable if you're going to do it "right", according to the standards of both me and the guys who wrote the bulk of the material on them). i think that part of the transistion to SR4 should be some kind of quasi-mystical sea change in the Matrix that lowers the bar for entry into otakuhood, makes the transition into otakuhood less traumatic, and allows otaku to retain their powers through adulthood.