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Skyrock
One thing I would wish for SR4 is an upgrade of the Voodoo tradition.
If compared with other mages(except Psionics), Houngans rather suck IMHO. Loa spirits aren't able to manifest, and possession has a lot of negative side effects - no control on the side of the Houngan, the problem of getting a dual being, and last but not least Deadly Stun drain at the end of the possession.
Of course Loas give some benefits - raising physical attributes, you can have two at one time, no domain limit - but with the metatechniques of Invoking and Channeling every Shaman can get this benefit as well.
Finally there're the Zombies - needing longer then Elementals to be summoned, needing a corpse, costing the same as Elementals, needing the Enchanting skill to be summoned, and for what? They are dual beings, bound to the physical plane, don't having good combat relevant attributes or any powers, not even that Immunity to Normal Weapons thing that every other spirit has.

So I'd like to see if them got powered up some way. Maybe you should delete that need for Enchanting at the Zombie summoning and lower the price for the ritual materials.
I'd also like to see a comeback of the working Loa[1] of SR2 - spirits who could possess normal critters and give them some minor powers.

[1]I'm not sure for the english term - I only know the "Arbeitsloa" from german SR2.
Demosthenes
The word you're looking for is, prosaically enough 'Work Loa'.

I wouldn't necessarily argue for Vodoun to be powered up in SR4, but I definitely think that the magic mechanics need to be tightened up and smoothed out 'under the hood' - flavour differences are important, but I don't want to have big mechanical differences between magical traditions, which is essentially what you get with Voodoo etc in SR3...
Skyrock
I'm generally a fan of streamlined systems(and IMHO there's really a need for it in SR), but I think in the case magic mechanics the streamlining task is rather solved. I don't see a need in streamlining in the special case of Voodoo, except that minor thing of the need of Enchanting for Zombie summoning. Zombie summoning should use exactly the same rules as Elemental summoning(except using a Hounfour instead of a Hermetic circle, and maybe a lower price for the ritual materials).
DrJest
QUOTE
Zombie summoning should use exactly the same rules as Elemental summoning(except using a Hounfour instead of a Hermetic circle, and maybe a lower price for the ritual materials).


Heh... back when voodoo first made an appearance in SR it was in a series of articles in White Wolf Magazine, of all places, writing up New Orleans. Zombie animation was a spell back then, among many many cool and flavourful spells - Heart Burst was a cracker, a base Deadly damaging health spell, or the one that made the target hack up spiders all over the place. We reverse engineered it and made an area effect version that would raise all the corpses within an area. If you could survive the... what was it, something like +3D drain, it was cool. I only got to use it the once, but man it was worth it biggrin.gif
nezumi
Meh, I think voodoo is well done, in that it meets the real life rules. Rather than make voodoo (or other special areas based off of real life) stronger than it should be, just make it cost less.
Cynic project
QUOTE (Skyrock)
One thing I would wish for SR4 is an upgrade of the Voodoo tradition.
If compared with other mages(except Psionics), Houngans rather suck IMHO. Loa spirits aren't able to manifest, and possession has a lot of negative side effects - no control on the side of the Houngan, the problem of getting a dual being, and last but not least Deadly Stun drain at the end of the possession.
Of course Loas give some benefits - raising physical attributes, you can have two at one time, no domain limit - but with the metatechniques of Invoking and Channeling every Shaman can get this benefit as well.
Finally there're the Zombies - needing longer then Elementals to be summoned, needing a corpse, costing the same as Elementals, needing the Enchanting skill to be summoned, and for what? They are dual beings, bound to the physical plane, don't having good combat relevant attributes or any powers, not even that Immunity to Normal Weapons thing that every other spirit has.

So I'd like to see if them got powered up some way. Maybe you should delete that need for Enchanting at the Zombie summoning and lower the price for the ritual materials.
I'd also like to see a comeback of the working Loa[1] of SR2 - spirits who could possess normal critters and give them some minor powers.

[1]I'm not sure for the english term - I only know the "Arbeitsloa" from german SR2.

Okay, my Voodoo man can and does have the abilitiy to get fource6-8 great form loa. He with one othose he can basicly go hand to hand with bug queens,vampires, drones, and walk threw just about anythign short of lasers and full on milspec weapons.

Loa are nasty when you get invoking. Just out right nasty.
fistandantilus4.0
I had a nice plan to have a voodoun make a zombie, put it in the biggest, baddest ward he could, and then dose himself w/ DMSO, so that it goes free. Then when he wakes up, do an astral quest for the true name, and get a grande zombie in the end. Never got the guts to try it though.

I like the voodoun characters just for the flavor. One of my players plays a Petro (but more RL petro, where Petro is more border line, and not the equivelant of toxic) follower of Baron Samedi. Uses scupting/molding for a centering skill. Walks around with clay that she fashions into a semblance of the target. Also uses the same clay for symbolic linking, which are the two meta's she has. So it all incorporates well. She's most likely going to make the clay into a homoculi ally at next initiation.
Grinder
I never encountered a houngan-pc. Guess they are not so well-suited to be a good runner. Leave 'em as they are.
CradleWorm
Well I have to disagree completely. I have found VooDoo Magicians to be just as powerful as other types of magicians. Having just finished playing a campaign as a VooDoo mage let me tell you why.

#1) Spirits. Yes, your spirits can not manifest. However, they do not have to manifest to effect targets on the physical plane with powers! That means your spirits are not only safe from attack while exercising powers, but they don't have to waste a complex action to manifest before they can execute orders! I view this as an advantage, not a disadvantage.

#2) Possession. I found this to be a risky, but powerful option. A voodoo mage that can summon powerful spirits can become a truly nasty opponent for anyone. Not only do your physical attributes increase by the force of the spirit, but the spirit still has access to all its powers plus all your abilities.

#3) 12 Hours. Unlike shamans, whose spirits disappear at sun rise or sun set, a voodoo magicians spirits leave after 12 hours. This alone makes it impossible for someone to plan an ambush around a preset time in the day when your spirits go away.

#4) Zombies. They are neat... thats all.
Skyrock
@CradleWorm:

I disagree with you. (I think that shouldn't take you wonder wink.gif )

#1.) No spirit can affect the physical plane without manifesting or getting otherwise access to it(like over the way of possession). That's part of the SR3 magic system.
Astral Loa spirits can only affect their summoner, that's nothing to write at home about - every nature spirit can do the same job and even more, like affecting other targets and giving support in melee combat.

#2.) For short time it's an nice option, but after it you can kick away your houngan for some hours.
And during possession there's the dual being problem, with all that problems of astral attacks and wards.

#3.) Good point, although it's only a minor bonus IMHO.

#4.) Zombies are completely useless - even a force 6 Zombie in a norm body has only 3 dice for melee combat. At least they should be a lot of cheaper.
Grinder
QUOTE (Skyrock)
#4.) Zombies are completely useless - even a force 6 Zombie in a norm body has only 3 dice for melee combat. At least they should be a lot of cheaper.

Hm, would houserule that to (force) unarmed combat.

Or use shedim, they're much cooler. wink.gif
Skyrock
I can do a lot of thing with houserules - I can houserule that elephants are an playable PC race and that zombies can spit fireballs through their noses.

But they are nothing which fixes the problems inherent to the system. And it doesn't help me in mixed groups like conventions where the official rules are the only base for playing.
CradleWorm
QUOTE (Skyrock)
#1.) No spirit can affect the physical plane without manifesting or getting otherwise access to it(like over the way of possession). That's part of the SR3 magic system.
Astral Loa spirits can only affect their summoner, that's nothing to write at home about - every nature spirit can do the same job and even more, like affecting other targets and giving support in melee combat.

Actually... you are not right. Loa spirits are specifically allowed to effect the physical plane without manifesting.

All spirits may use powers on the summoner or controller of the spirit from astral space.

You are correct when you say the SR3 magic system specifically says spirits may not effect targets on a different plane. This is in line with everything else in the magic system. Mages cannot effect physical targets when projecting either.

But, Loa spirits are specifically given an exception, at least in the printing of the magic book I have.

I also don't see anything in the FAQ or Errata to dispute it.
Sharaloth
CradleWorm, do you have a page reference for us?

My copy of MitS says that a Loa can use their powers to benefit their summoner, but says nothing about using them on anyone else. So powers like Concealment, Movement, etc are useable on it's summoner, but the other powers they have can only be used on the physical plane while possessing.

So... proof.gif
Skyrock
Not in mine... Just rough translated from German MitS(p.102):

"SERVICES OF THE LOA SPIRITS
Loa spirits cannot materialize in a physical form. They exist only in astral space, (...). A Loa spirit can use its powers to benefit its summoner while remaining in astral form. (...)"

There's no word about using powers on other physical beings except the summoner while being on the astral plane.

Edit: Two users, same opinion wink.gif
Dawnshadow
Confusing the sammy pointing a gun at me is to my benefit? wink.gif

It doesn't actually say anything about who can be affected, just that it can benefit someone while on the astral plane.. which is a very different thing then 'can only affect'.. the quote isn't exactly supportive of either, you can argue both sides and it's still perfectly reasonable.
Skyrock
That isn't an exact quote from american MitS - it's re-translated from german MitS.

I'd like to see the original..
mfb
it says the same thing--same wording. i've always interpreted that to mean that it can use its powers on the summoner, but not anyone else.
Fortune
QUOTE (MitS p. 102)
A Loa can use its powers to benefit its summoner while remaining in astral form. The Houngan can also ask the Spirit to perform any task a Watcher (p. 100) can perform. The only other service a Loa can perform is Possession.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Grinder)
QUOTE (Skyrock @ Apr 8 2005, 04:16 PM)
#4.) Zombies are completely useless - even a force 6 Zombie in a norm body has only 3 dice for melee combat. At least they should be a lot of cheaper.

Hm, would houserule that to (force) unarmed combat.

Or use shedim, they're much cooler. wink.gif

See, I don't know about that. Being good at hand to hand combat if you have a humanoid form and you aren't this massive powerful gorilla that can effortlessly tear your opponents apart requires a lot of determination, skill, and mental focus. Like, people who are bad at unarmed combat are just really, really harmless. In many cases, if someone dosen't really know how to hit you, they simply won't damage you at all even if they do land a punch; they'll be arm punching or something.

Like, here's a news story covering a high school beating (Unarmed Combat 0) that has some video footage: http://www.foxreno.com/news/4480840/detail.html

Notice how even though the kids have a totally nonresisting opponent who dosen't move away or raise his hands to protect his face (choosing not to roll any defense dice) it takes them a really really long time to do any damage.

Like, "realistically", I just can't see something like a zombie being very effective at all in hand to hand combat. Some humanoid animated magical thingie starts swinging its limbs at you...without the proper tactics and body coordination, it just isn't going to be very effective, at all. You could probably stand there taking a lot of its hits and be fine, if it behaves like your typical high school bully. Or, if it threw really gigantic swings with a lot of power, it would be extremely easy to avoid since it wouldn't know to avoid telegraphing.

My point is that I don't really see any way around zombies being horrendous melee fighters.
Grinder
Never played Earthdawn? The zombie-like creatures there (called cadaver men) are really scary in hand-to-hand combat.

After all, it's still magic. So when the GM wants the zombie/shedim/cadaver-man to be awful good at close combat, so be it. smile.gif
weblife
The only thing that I find disconcerting about the Voodoun is that you surrender control of your character to the GM while posessed.

There is no way you can make best use of your powers if its not you who are in control. Its like going on autopilot and then hoping everything works out ok.

Finally, taking the Deadly Stun in the end can be circumvented. Get a Trauma Dampener, that takes one box away.

Second, use force 3-4 stimpacks to remove another few boxes. You should now be below a Serious and thus able to cast the spell that allows you to ignore pain.

The Stimpack requires you to roll Magic vs. Rating, you must have one success. Failure means you take a Magic Test to avoid losing Magic. Make sure you have a point of Karma Pool before using a stim. nyahnyah.gif

The Trauma Dampener costs 80k Nuyen after SI, 40k if you get it at creation.

For me to create a character using Voodoo, I'd have to have my GM's permission to be in control even when possessed. Atleast practically, with the GM as judge on which actions the spirit would not take.
hobgoblin
voodoo and achoring are the two things they screwed up going from SR2 to SR3 (and that bit about grounding, but then i think i had to read it about 5 times to get the hang of it nyahnyah.gif )...

in SR2, voodoo was basicly a strange from of shamanism. the loa was totems. you had something called work loa that was a bit like watchers only that you could make them posess a corpse to get a zombie wink.gif

and you could have to loa posess the houngan or a servitour (sp?) to get some extra magical firepower.
nick012000
An easy way to power up your zombies: put cyber in them. Grade 4 Move-by-wire, Grade 4 Muscle replacement, Grade 3 Dermal Sheathing, Titanium bone lacing...

EDIT: Or have them possessed by Great Form loa spirits. Or both, for that matter...
apollo124
Someone else a while back in this topic mentioned the White Wolf article that first brought Voudoun into SR. One thing that fascinated the sick freak that is me was the spell "Change Sex", which I have been waiting for them to bring into MITS or any of the other official magic books. All it did was "change you from a rooster to a hen in one shot'. Talk about a disorienting spell! Permanent effect and about the best disguise you could hope for, becoming a completely different person. Ok, wandering away now waiting to be called a psycho...
hobgoblin
awakenings had a story about a troll pulling something similar with a illusion or something wink.gif

as for zombies and cyberware, sorry but from what i recall thats a official nono. basicly the cyberware wont work. except maybe totaly passive stuff like bone lace and similar...
Moonstone Spider
IIRC it's any Cyberware that adds to attributes, but nothing else.
nick012000
Yup. And all the cyber I mentioned adds to Attributes.
Mongoose
Yeah, that "sex change" thing was a pretty cool spell. I think it goes a bit against the conceptual basis of health spells, at least giving it a permenant effect does, but its the sort of thing that makes magic really... different. I played a houngan under those rules and (as a character quirk) had the character using the spell on a daily basis...
If it was a temporary spell, I suppose you could quicken it, or use ritual magic to make it last a while without any special effort.
As for the illusion spell- a plain old "mask" spell would do that. Its illusion spell that affects all the senses. ALL THE SENSES- just consider that for a second. If it was "physical mask", you could even record it, say as trid/sim-porn.
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