I think that if anyone enjoyed playing Shadowrun for the unigue style of the rules set as much as they did for the story, then you can finish out your SR3 collection and be thankful for one thing, you won't have to go about spending the money it will take to upgrade (**cough**Downgrade**cough, cough**) to SR4.
I am not saying that SR4 won't be fun, but I don't think it will be Shadowrun either. This point can be argued up one end and down the other. But, for me it was the possiblities that the rules allowed and how they were executed that made the story of Shadowrun work.
The nice thing is with the books that are coming out for SR3 then the Shadowrun universe is nice and fleshed out and can be run for a long, long time. Plus with System Failure, I assume, you should be able to bridge your own gap between the story from SR3 and the story from SR4.
Full Version: Bad Idea
I'd have to agree that the rules were a major part for me. I'd also like to ask for a more descriptive thread title.
~J
~J
Such gloom and doom, sheesh.
We've only seen small bits and it's obvious things will be different. We've also yet to see all of it put together, maybe it will be a great re-invention of an already great game?
I wouldn't give up on something we have yet to see as a whole.
We've only seen small bits and it's obvious things will be different. We've also yet to see all of it put together, maybe it will be a great re-invention of an already great game?
I wouldn't give up on something we have yet to see as a whole.
Well, I'm terribly afraid of them simplifying weapons and equipment in general to an extent that these pieces have no individuaity any more. Power level is gone, damage level still MIA.
It's blow big time if a T-250 would have the same punch as a Remington 950 in the new system. Right now, the T-250 packs more punch, but both are S damage level.
Shadowrun is pretty big on weapons, and has all kinds of different guns that all have their own ups and downs. I'd like to keep that. I'd hate to lose it.
Granted, we haven't seen that yet, but I have lost most initial optimism. And I don't believe in wonders either.
It's blow big time if a T-250 would have the same punch as a Remington 950 in the new system. Right now, the T-250 packs more punch, but both are S damage level.
Shadowrun is pretty big on weapons, and has all kinds of different guns that all have their own ups and downs. I'd like to keep that. I'd hate to lose it.
Granted, we haven't seen that yet, but I have lost most initial optimism. And I don't believe in wonders either.
time will tell hermit. i dont recall a faq post about how combat will work under the new system. nearest i have seen is a guesstimate here on the forum based on the info about fixed target number and attrib+skill...
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| Well, I'm terribly afraid of them simplifying weapons and equipment in general to an extent that these pieces have no individuaity any more. Power level is gone, damage level still MIA. It's blow big time if a T-250 would have the same punch as a Remington 950 in the new system. Right now, the T-250 packs more punch, but both are S damage level. Shadowrun is pretty big on weapons, and has all kinds of different guns that all have their own ups and downs. I'd like to keep that. I'd hate to lose it. Granted, we haven't seen that yet, but I have lost most initial optimism. And I don't believe in wonders either. |
Really everything that we've done thus far in terms of guessing about combat has been predicated on making educated guesses about what makes sense given the base dice rolling system.
Currently we have absolutely no clue as to huge amounts of variables inherent in combat. If we had some idea of how weapon damage is figured, environmental penalties + bonuses work, etc. And that doesn't even begin to cover things like initiative or how cyber magical augments affect combat.
Basically currently we simply don't have enough of the picture to even begin to guess on how things work. So of us like to design systems so we are playing but it's basically just that playing and guessing based on how other games or how we would do things given a set of assumptions.
It's really to early to say if the overall product will be crap or the next best thing since sliced bread but it's fun fighting over it
*cough cough downgrade lol lol rofl sarcasm cough cough lol lol*
That was weak, dude, especially since no one has seen the finished product yet.
That was weak, dude, especially since no one has seen the finished product yet.
true we havent seen the finished system ronin, but i hate to say this and will love to find myself wrong, but, the only good thing i see coming from SR4 is the ability to take it to LARP more easily.......you know, its gonna be good to out do the VtM people at cons now
Hermit, I'm pretty sure this is the second time I've seen you mention power/damage ratings being changed or outright vanishing -- what makes you think this is going to be the case? Is there some secret FAQ somewhere?
I mean, I'm all for complaining about the stuff we know about (just glance around, and look for any post by me mentioning Combat Pool), but do we really need to start making things up to complain about, too?
I mean, I'm all for complaining about the stuff we know about (just glance around, and look for any post by me mentioning Combat Pool), but do we really need to start making things up to complain about, too?
| QUOTE (lord_cack) |
| ... to upgrade (**cough**Downgrade**cough, cough**) to SR4. I am not saying that SR4 won't be fun, but I don't think it will be Shadowrun either. .... |
How can you say downgrade?
And exactally what in your opinion IS shadowrun.
Cos I'm telling you its not the system its the world and none of is history ios changing and before somone says the future is.
Duh futures do that otherwise we'd be doing this via snail mail.
It would be unfair to say the world is not changing, just the rules. Deckers and Riggers have been an integral part of the SR setting and world. They are in every novel and adventure. They may be more difficult to play, but they have been part of the definitive Shadowrun World since the beginning. To dismiss the absence of two major archetypes as a simple rules change is short sighted at best.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| Hermit, I'm pretty sure this is the second time I've seen you mention power/damage ratings being changed or outright vanishing -- what makes you think this is going to be the case? Is there some secret FAQ somewhere? I mean, I'm all for complaining about the stuff we know about (just glance around, and look for any post by me mentioning Combat Pool), but do we really need to start making things up to complain about, too? |
It's fairly easy to figure out.
1) Power is the TN for soaking
2) SR4 has a constant TN of 5
Therefore, Power cannot be in SR4.
| QUOTE (NightHaunted) |
| Cos I'm telling you its not the system its the world and none of is history ios changing and before somone says the future is. |
And I'm telling you it's the system not the world. And Joe down the street tells us that it's actually the cover illustration. No, it's a mix of the two, and don't try to pretend otherwise.
~J
I fully agree with Kagetenshi... it's the system AND the world...
After the fourth FAQ posted, i was going to give it all up ! My idea of SR4 was more a revamped version of the previous mechanics... and yes i was very disapointed to see that deckers were gone, that the concept of pools as we know it was gone as well and that new attributes were created.
But now, i can see that it is going to be a brand new game. So i'll let them work and see the result at the end and i think it's the best approach to take right now because we can't judge the product based on FAQs. Only the final product can be !
My hurrays and tomatoes are ready and i can't wait to see !!!
After the fourth FAQ posted, i was going to give it all up ! My idea of SR4 was more a revamped version of the previous mechanics... and yes i was very disapointed to see that deckers were gone, that the concept of pools as we know it was gone as well and that new attributes were created.
But now, i can see that it is going to be a brand new game. So i'll let them work and see the result at the end and i think it's the best approach to take right now because we can't judge the product based on FAQs. Only the final product can be !
My hurrays and tomatoes are ready and i can't wait to see !!!
I have to disagree to a certain extent. I have seen scores of awesome setting come and go, but none of those settings has been coupled with a brillant, ultra-realistic, unique rules system like SR has.
As for this entire situation: I'm thinking that Kag and I and some other SR3 gurus should just take it upon ourselves to houserule SR3 into the polished product we should be getting in SR4. As much as SR3 has been fleshed out I'm pretty much leaning toward staying in SR3. There is enough story arcs going on to keep a group going for many many years.
As for this entire situation: I'm thinking that Kag and I and some other SR3 gurus should just take it upon ourselves to houserule SR3 into the polished product we should be getting in SR4. As much as SR3 has been fleshed out I'm pretty much leaning toward staying in SR3. There is enough story arcs going on to keep a group going for many many years.
| QUOTE (Solstice) |
| I have to disagree to a certain extent. I have seen scores of awesome setting come and go, but none of those settings has been coupled with a brillant, ultra-realistic, unique rules system like SR has. |
Uhh this is simply not true there are lots of awesome settings out there that also have very realistic and even unique rules.Setting wise SR is very interesting even though it can pretty much be summarized as Fantasy meets Cyberpunk.
In terms of simulating reality SR is actually pretty much middle of the pack as far as systems go. You have much more realistic (read totally fucking deadly systems) out there.
Finally for unique rules there are lots of games with brilliant and innovative rules that totally suit thier genre and feel of the game.
Just because many people here feel that SR3 is the pinnacle of game design doesn't mean that view is the majority view within the gaming community. In fact go to some place like RPG.net and ask in general gaming what gam best meets the criteria of brilliant setting, ultrarealism and unique rules and I bet that tha vast majority will not list SR3.
FanPro's goal as a business is not to try to totally piss you guys off but rather to appeal to those gamers who've looked at SR in the past and gone "OMG this is so fucking clunky". While some of those gamers might be d20 scum the chances are that they might also include so people who like a wide variety of different systems.
I think that SR4 is really walking a very fine line. Driving off existing players (which regardless of how you feel about it, appears to be happening) is not a wise choice. Yes they may gain some new blood but quite honestly outside of D&D the RPG market is much weaker than it used to be. So I think that in the end the designers will not intentionally do anything that will completely drive off existing players in the end. I could be wrong though 
| QUOTE (Solstice) |
| As for this entire situation: I'm thinking that Kag and I and some other SR3 gurus should just take it upon ourselves to houserule SR3 into the polished product we should be getting in SR4. As much as SR3 has been fleshed out I'm pretty much leaning toward staying in SR3. There is enough story arcs going on to keep a group going for many many years. |
As well as possibly trying to translate the new 4th ed stuff into 3rd ed terms & rules. For example, a 4th ed book with some new 'ware comes out; maybe try to post rules for it in terms of 3rd ed. I'd be all for that.
Not a complete reprint; that'd be copyright-naughtiness, but just some numbers. It wouldn't make any sense unless you bought the book, so no getting around giving them their $$, but depending on how 4th ed goes, it might be worthwhile for those who want to keep up with the storylines and technology development but keep the 3rd ed mechanics.
I have mentioned this on other threads. There is a very clear disconnect being made between what Shadowrun was and what it is to become. They are doing away with old storylines and tying up loose ends. They are changing the system, changing the names and attributes. I am sure that the skills list will be changed radically. No Dice pools, "edge", Hackers..... This will be top to bottom a different game. To me it is clear that the intentions of this revision is NOT to appeal to current Shadowrun fans, it is to get new ones. If they can accomplish that then the loss of a SR fan like me means very little to them I'm sure. So to me and the players like me should know that we are expendable assets.
This is not a hostile post or anything. I just understand where I stand on the whole thing. SR4, maybe good, may not. I don't care one way or the other. I just don't think it will be Shadowrun as I know it.
This is not a hostile post or anything. I just understand where I stand on the whole thing. SR4, maybe good, may not. I don't care one way or the other. I just don't think it will be Shadowrun as I know it.
lord_cack, were you around for the change from SR2 to SR3? That had a serious reworking of the skill list, a definate tweaking of initiative, and consolidation of a number of pools. Rigger 3 also started trying to bring riggers and deckers into each other's world (CCSS and Deck programs that allowed some drone control), although i think in the end that only highlighted that those two in SR3 had a gap too large to bridge.
It looks like there is going to be a lot more attribute translation of PCs from SR3 to SR4, and it won't be easy. But moving characters from SR2 to SR3 wasn't exactly a cakewalk either. There were also a LOT of SR2 characters that became cyberzombies in SR3 due to a serious reworking of cyber essense costs, and even then the cyber changed it's functioning.
From that point of view SR4 is more of another point on that tragectory than a departure. I suspect that Fanpro would very much like to keep longtime SR people around. If they didn't they would be far better off not putting in the effort to replicate the collective feel of SR.
It looks like there is going to be a lot more attribute translation of PCs from SR3 to SR4, and it won't be easy. But moving characters from SR2 to SR3 wasn't exactly a cakewalk either. There were also a LOT of SR2 characters that became cyberzombies in SR3 due to a serious reworking of cyber essense costs, and even then the cyber changed it's functioning.
From that point of view SR4 is more of another point on that tragectory than a departure. I suspect that Fanpro would very much like to keep longtime SR people around. If they didn't they would be far better off not putting in the effort to replicate the collective feel of SR.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| lord_cack, where you around for the change from SR2 to SR3? That had a serious reworking of the skill list, a definate tweaking of initiative, and consolidation of a number of pools. Rigger 3 also started trying to bring riggers and deckers into each other's world (CCSS and Deck programs that allowed some drone control), although i think in the end that only highlighted that those two in SR3 had a gap too large to bridge. It looks like there is going to be a lot more attribute translation of PCs from SR3 to SR4, and it won't be easy. But moving characters from SR2 to SR3 wasn't exactly a cakewalk either. There were also a LOT of SR2 characters that became cyberzombies in SR3 due to a serious reworking of cyber essense costs, and even then the cyber changed it's functioning. From that point of view SR4 is more of another point on that tragectory than a departure. I suspect that Fanpro would very much like to keep longtime SR people around. If they didn't they would be far better off not putting in the effort to replicate the collective feel of SR. |
Heh if you think the upgrade from SR2 to SR3 was bad think about how much mage characters from SR1 have been changed over the course of the 2 rulebook changes. The significant changes in how individual spells have worked over the 3 editions are quite numerous. The idea that it's been easy to translate 1e characters to the current ruleset is pretty much false.
Pretty much anytime you have a lot of rule changes between editions even on half editions like DnD 3.0 to DnD 3.5 or between WoD 2.0 and WoD revised running characters through the upgrade process has been nightmarish. I expect nothing less but at least they are offering a update guide between editions which is at least throwing people a little bone
I suspect that SR3 to SR4 PC translation will basically be build a new PC and then progress him in a similar direction as the SR3 PC did with approximately the same amount of karma....unless the value of a point of karma drastically changes. Then it's more of progress him until it feels right.
No way that you'll be able to directly translate Karma Pool, a huge factor in the power of a well developed PC, into Edge as no SR4 character is ever going to have Edge 30. Edge 30 would cost approximately 10,000 Karma on it's own, assuming each level cost similar to what attributes cost now, (Level + (Level-1) +....1)*2.
EDIT: I just noticed a serious miscalculation for Karma cost. A 1,000 Karma would only advance you from a start of Edge(6) up to Edge(14). In SR3 earning a mere 300 Karma, and burning a few Karma Pool points on the way, gets your Karma Pool there.
No way that you'll be able to directly translate Karma Pool, a huge factor in the power of a well developed PC, into Edge as no SR4 character is ever going to have Edge 30. Edge 30 would cost approximately 10,000 Karma on it's own, assuming each level cost similar to what attributes cost now, (Level + (Level-1) +....1)*2.
EDIT: I just noticed a serious miscalculation for Karma cost. A 1,000 Karma would only advance you from a start of Edge(6) up to Edge(14). In SR3 earning a mere 300 Karma, and burning a few Karma Pool points on the way, gets your Karma Pool there.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| I suspect that SR3 to SR4 PC translation will basically be build a new PC and then progress him in a similar direction as the SR3 PC did with approximately the same amount of karma....unless the value of a point of karma drastically changes. Then it's more of progress him until it feels right. No way that you'll be able to directly translate Karma Pool, a huge factor in the power of a well developed PC, into Edge as no SR4 character is ever going to have Edge 30. Edge 30 would cost approximately 1,000 Karma on it's own, assuming each level cost similar to what attributes cost now, (Level + (Level-1) +....)*2. |
I agree wholeheartedly with your points even though I do tend to suspect that attrbute costs karma wise are going to change from that formula to something like x^2.
Pretty much I think that any game designer that says an upgrade booklet will be able to cover all circumstances is talking out their ass. I figure what a booklet will do is to give you the basic conversion process and like all thing it will rely on GM fiat to really fine tune for each game.
After all we know that cyberdecks go away in the new edition so at the bare minimum the decker characters fairlight excalibur plus utilities will likely either be wholesale dropped or significantly changed.
I never liked "upgrading" characters from old systems to new ones. I prefer the start fresh approach. I think that the time lapse in the story between editions gives you perfect chances to start over. Which would probably be better off in the end anyway. Just never felt it was worth the hassel..
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