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Starglyte
My hope for the game is that it would be easier to build non Shadowrunner PCs. For example, Trid reporters, fixers, stock brokers, rock stars, etc. I understand that the main focus of the game is to go on shadowruns, but I believe it adds to the game if other types of campaigns can be done.
hahnsoo
My hope is that reporters and rockers don't use Open Tests to determine their success (bound to happen, because they removed Open Tests). Shadowbeat really needs a good clean overhaul.
Crimsondude 2.0
How do the current chargen rules make it harder?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
How do the current chargen rules make it harder?

I was wondering that myself. It's fairly easy to make a rocker or a reporter. Hell, if you can make an Ork Investigator, you can make just about anything. The main problem with playing the rocker or reporter or even a Horse rider is the antiquated mechanics that have never been given enough priority to update. I find it rather amusing that "Whale riding" is mentioned in SOTA:2064, but there are no actual rules for doing so.
GrinderTheTroll
So you actually use the chargen system to make NPCs? I never use those types of mechanics since you usually need to tailor those types to meet campaign needs. IMO, using chargen for NPC generation only slows down the process.

I thought the new system used Build Points instead of Priority assignemnts? Also, I heard the Open Test is out with SR4 anyways.
Starglyte
Haven't really mastered the chargen rules quite yet. But, if my memrory is right, there is no character archtypes to show any character types outside shadowrunners. I don't have the books near me, but I believe there is none as well in the rest of the SR3 books as well. I could be wrong. Having some examples would be a help.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Starglyte)
Haven't really mastered the chargen rules quite yet. But, if my memrory is right, there is no character archtypes to show any character types outside shadowrunners. I don't have the books near me, but I believe there is none as well in the rest of the SR3 books as well. I could be wrong. Having some examples would be a help.

So what do you need examples of? Stats? Unless it's *that* important, make them all 3 +racial modifiers. Skills? 3=average, so base the skills *they need* using 3 as a basis. Gear? Reporters have, well cameras, rockers, um, synth-instruments, etc.

IMO, The hardest part of the NPC is probably the Name and maybe some sort of story but that probably pseudo-creats itself if you are planting them in your storyline.

What would be most useful, would be "a NPC Generator" application or some Random Table to avoid having to do mundane things like make and name reporters, rockers, etc.
Ellery
Skill 3 in SR3 is a hobbyist-level skill. People would typically have skills of at least 4 in areas of expertise. For example, a modern-day taxi driver would probably need Car (4) and Knowledge:Seattle Streets (6) to stay in business (with GridGuide, you might not even need a driver...).

This is the case both from the descriptions of the skills, and statistically. A skill of three is so cheap to buy (with karma) that it's hard to imagine people who use a skill a lot not having a higher skill than that just with routine practice.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (Ellery @ Apr 20 2005, 04:12 PM)
This is the case both from the descriptions of the skills, and statistically.  A skill of three is so cheap to buy (with karma) that it's hard to imagine people who use a skill a lot not having a higher skill than that just with routine practice.

Routine practice of any skill will only get you so high, practice re-enforces what you already know, and helps revent loss of it. Without new material or someone teaching it to you, you'd won't "just get better" by practicing the same thing.

You don't learn to drive like a NASCAR champ simply because you've commuted to work for the last 10 years. You need challanges that force you to reach outside of what's comfortable and learn to approach the problem for different angles.

There are many skills in SR3 (like driving) that are assumed, unless you in someway want to use it *beyond* normal, everyday use. So from my example, Taxi-cab "skill" is not equal to "NASCAR driver".
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Starglyte)
Haven't really mastered the chargen rules quite yet. But, if my memrory is right, there is no character archtypes to show any character types outside shadowrunners. I don't have the books near me, but I believe there is none as well in the rest of the SR3 books as well. I could be wrong. Having some examples would be a help.

Well, there is the whole chapter called, "Contacts." I would suggest flipping through pages 257-59.
Starglyte
Thanks for the info and insight. I didn't think of using them as archtypes for PCs. I will take a look at them again. Now to get some ideas for a game...
hahnsoo
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
So you actually use the chargen system to make NPCs? I never use those types of mechanics since you usually need to tailor those types to meet campaign needs. IMO, using chargen for NPC generation only slows down the process.

I thought the new system used Build Points instead of Priority assignemnts? Also, I heard the Open Test is out with SR4 anyways.

He said non-Shadowrunner PCs, not non-Shadowrunner NPCs. Big difference.
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (Ellery)
Skill 3 in SR3 is a hobbyist-level skill. People would typically have skills of at least 4 in areas of expertise. For example, a modern-day taxi driver would probably need Car (4) and Knowledge:Seattle Streets (6) to stay in business (with GridGuide, you might not even need a driver...).

This is the case both from the descriptions of the skills, and statistically. A skill of three is so cheap to buy (with karma) that it's hard to imagine people who use a skill a lot not having a higher skill than that just with routine practice.

3 is "Average"

4 is "Above Average"

I just give everybody 21's.
Critias
I really don't see what there needs to be any sort of improvement for. Building a "non Shadowrunner PC" is just like building a "Shadowrunner PC," only they've, y'know, got a different job. It's easy. You get them stats and skills and gear appropriate for being a non Shadowrunner (whatever that's supposed to really mean), as opposed to a Shadowrunner. It's not that big a deal.
Sandoval Smith
You don't need an archtype. The only real difference between a runner and a reporter, is that the reporter will probably have more contacts, less weapon skills. Interrogation would be another good one (knowing how to get people to answer questions), along with the standard neogotiations and etiquette. That and I suposse some complimentary knowledge skills, and since you can just make those up as you need them, there's no problem with the book lacking those.

Rock star would be a little harder, since there's no instrument playing skill, but you can just house rule a performance, or instrument specific skill for the player to use,
Crimsondude 2.0
And SR3 treats Artistic/Performance skills (at least, post-SOTA64) as Knowledge Skills. While there is no enumerated skill, the skills are there ready to be plucked out of the sky according to whatever you which to perform.
Critias
I mean, name a "non Shadowrunner PC" you'd like to see, give it twelve hours, and I'm sure you'll have a half dozen character sheets posted by the time you re-check your thread.
Grinder
It was never difficult to create pcs beyond the usual sammie, rigger or mage background/class. I've played mundane PIs, street kids, gangers and once even a snoop (who didn't last long, caught a fireball). Heck, we even once had a professor of antic languages who spoke 6 or 7 obscure languages fluently (on rating 5) and had some fitting knowledge skills. He wasn't good at combat, but noone expected him to be. Or take the pacifistic dove shaman a player created lat session. She's a healer, working as a street doctor and going on shadowruns for the needed cash to purchase new equipment (at least, this is the concept, we'll have to wait how it wil work out).

And skills for npcs? All 3, same with attributes. If a npc is supposed to be good at something, give him 4 or 5 or 6, i see no problem here for a halfway experienced gm.
hermit
We once had a professor of arcane arts as a PC. Really fun when he always put lectures he missed due to shadowruns on his assistants, who eventually dragged him before a disciplinary commission (he remained in his job, thanks to the team 'convincing' the commission's president it was better that way).

We also had a combat biker thrill-seeker type character. Sadly, his identity was blown quite fast, as he screwed with the mob on his first run, and now he's just an ordinary runner.

Making unorthodox characters is quite easy with companion build point rules, actually.

Edit: Grinder, a friend f mine played EXACTLY that type of character. Didn't quite work out, as the character couldn't stand the brutality of shadowrunning; she's now an NPC and the group's primary magical healer. Hoppe your dove shaman fares better than poor lil' Joy. Well, she had bad luck with her teammates, anyway (two of them were quite into gore and blood, and one was an insane demolitions expert)
Shadow
Why the hell would you want a rocker? Those archetypes where a waist of space. Shadowrunners are professional criminals. Read the professional part.
Grinder
QUOTE (hermit)
Edit: Grinder, a friend f mine played EXACTLY that type of character. Didn't quite work out, as the character couldn't stand the brutality of shadowrunning; she's now an NPC and the group's primary magical healer. Hoppe your dove shaman fares better than poor lil' Joy. Well, she had bad luck with her teammates, anyway (two of them were quite into gore and blood, and one was an insane demolitions expert)

Guess dove and snake shamans can only become healers and pacificstic. biggrin.gif

Our group is not that brutal so it may work. We'll see tomorrow. The only flaw can be our racist dwarf, who has one piece cyber too much and is way too brutal. But it his first involvement with this team, so if he turns out unfitting he will get kicked out.
Demosthenes
QUOTE (Shadow)
Why the hell would you want a rocker? Those archetypes where a waist of space. Shadowrunners are professional criminals. Read the professional part.

Would this:
QUOTE (Starglyte)
My hope for the game is that it would be easier to build non Shadowrunner PCs. For example, Trid reporters, fixers, stock brokers, rock stars, etc. I understand that the main focus of the game is to go on shadowruns, but I believe it adds to the game if other types of campaigns can be done.

answer your question? sarcastic.gif
Critias
QUOTE (Shadow)
Why the hell would you want a rocker? Those archetypes where a waist of space. Shadowrunners are professional criminals. Read the professional part.

It all depends on the feel and flavor of the game that people want to play. If all you want is stone-cold Ronin or Heat or Splinter Cell wannabes all running around being super cool and calm all the time, so be it. If someone's running a game with a different spin, let 'em. It doesn't hurt you any, does it? Why are you so excited?
ElFenrir
I actually have a character that is a rocker-turned merc. He has a high performance: guitar skill, he does have his mercish skills and cyberware...but still performs, making it tough for him to stay in the shadows nonetheless, but it's fun.

But the GM let me take a special Persuasion skill for him...needless to say it makes it easier for them to do a break in when he can persuade his fans, groupies, and the like to storm some gates and raise some hell...thus taking the attention away from the rest of the team. Raise non-violent hell, he doesn't want to get them killed, after all. In additon, loads of buddies and contacts(roadies, club owners, bar owners, booking agents) can also help out if you know how to work them right.

My current sam character works a side job as a magazine writer(again, music), and works occationaly as a bouncer for some of the bands, again making such rules useful. In addition to playing on the side for his own enjoyment, tho he has no fame or anything like that. In a more 'normal' game, music or journalism(or both) can make an excellent cover up job or whatnot. Or just a day job to flesh out the character.

I also toyed with an Ork journalist idea. Still sorta in the making but I liked the quick example given in SR3, so i tried to build on it a bit.

I loved Shadowbeat...being heavily into music myself(lisstening, occationaly performing, and writing for a 'zine about it, mixing music and journalism) it was right up my alley. Lets you either play something off the beaten path(even a straight up rocker or journalist), or you could always do the ex sam/merc/rigger/decker turned musican/journalist(an ex decker turned journalist could be hell for the people he decides to blow cover on!).

It also had the pirating rules which was mega helpful for yet another character, a tech-wiz type, but more toward rigger than decker. Pirate broadcasting is always fun and can be well utilized in a game.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Apr 20 2005, 05:54 PM)
So you actually use the chargen system to make NPCs?  I never use those types of mechanics since you usually need to tailor those types to meet campaign needs.  IMO, using chargen for NPC generation only slows down the process.

I thought the new system used Build Points instead of Priority assignemnts?  Also, I heard the Open Test is out with SR4 anyways.

He said non-Shadowrunner PCs, not non-Shadowrunner NPCs. Big difference.

I guess so.

So, what's the point of playing "a non-Shadowrunner PC"? Seems like you'd be excluding yourself from alot of exciting aspects of what SR has to offer.

/boggle
mfb
the same could be said about only building shadowrunner PCs. by doing that, you're excluding yourself from all kinds of cool "newbie shadowrunner" stories.
GrinderTheTroll
QUOTE (mfb)
the same could be said about only building shadowrunner PCs. by doing that, you're excluding yourself from all kinds of cool "newbie shadowrunner" stories.

Not sure why you just wouldn't use regular chargen rules with some modification, like in MJLBB for example, thats how we've done low-powered campaigns in the past.

Although in my groups no one's ever expressed interest in being "a reporter" or "a banker". But to each his own.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Apr 21 2005, 11:45 AM)
I guess so.

So, what's the point of playing "a non-Shadowrunner PC"?  Seems like you'd be excluding yourself from alot of exciting aspects of what SR has to offer.

I think what the person meant was a "non-typical" Shadowrunner PC, with the "non-typical" part meaning an archetype/sample character not in SR3. Regardless, every character comes from somewhere, whether he/she was born and raised on the street (a ganger, possibly a squatter) or he/she is an ex-company person. Rockers and Reporters are valid backgrounds to justify becoming a Shadowrunner. Look at the Sprawl Survival Guide for an example of a reporter becoming a Shadowrunner. Shadowbeat and several SR adventures show multiple examples of rockers who turn toward the shadows.

An all-Rocker campaign could be interesting, especially once you get the Underworld (Mafia, Yaks) and Media corporations involved
mfb
well, yeah. i think the current rules are just fine for building non-runner PCs--i've done it myself on more than one occasion.
mintcar
It wouldnt hurt if SR4 took that perspective for starting runners. Sort of like SR1-2, but more outspoken. If rockers and reporters were presented as playable starting characters, and street sams etc. were just starting out therefor on the same level SR4 would have a greater spectrum of choises at first glance and a greater depth than SR3 has. Characters would have a longer road to travel and would experience more changes in the course of their career.

Its really the same discussion as in the Street Level forum. All characters and power levels are playable in SR3. Question is which ones will be the norm in SR4. Im partial to the low powered stuff. I have geared up lately, but its not really my style to demand perfect behavior from my players which is a problem when theyre supposed to be professionals. Ill do some of the stuff Ive planned for, but when SR4 comes Ill most likely start over with rookies again.
Grinder
We'll see if they (the developers) listen to us and give some flashy not-so-comabt-masters as archetypes. Like the ork pi in sr3.
warrior_allanon
for contacts i use a 1000 point karma on the becks system with McMakie's char gen program works for me
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