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ankh-le-fixer
my question is quite simple : do you know if the DNA fingerprint is alterable by any means? I have read on a document that it s not possible yet but in the future (in 2060 for example smile.gif )

i have this problem because one of my player is flagged as terrorist by the FBI and despite he has changed his face, fingerprint and his ID, he still fear a DNA scan...
the_dunner
SOTA:2063 has material on doing this. Yes, it is possible.
mmu1
Well... It's possible in-game.

In reality, it's not, nor will it ever be.

At least not without advances in technology so major und unthinkable that human civilization will experience multiple Vingean singularities and being able to change your DNA structure will no longer be relevant in the way we think of it today, but that's really just a longer way of saying "no".
Kyuhan
Tch...realist.
Edward
I would think you could change the DNA sequence of your blood. A complete bone marrow and blood transplant should work; of cause you probably spend the rest of your life on anti rejection drugs

A means of changing the DNA in every sell of eth body has been conceived of, the problem is avoiding duplicate entrees in cells and getting your edit in the correct place.

Edward
mmu1
QUOTE (Edward)
A means of changing the DNA in every sell of eth body has been conceived of, the problem is avoiding duplicate entrees in cells and getting your edit in the correct place.

Edward

There's a world of difference between gene therapy using retroviruses (which is actually unable to change the DNA in every cell of the body, you end up with a mosaic of infected and uninfected cells), and actually replacing nearly all the genetic material in every cell with a completely different genome.

I don't know whether the latter is physically possible with any currently conceivable technology, but I doubt it - and I also have serious doubts whether it'd leave the subject as anything more than a vegetable. What happens to the brain if, all of a sudden, the nerve cells start to express different (even if only slightly) genes because all the DNA in them has been replaced?
shadow_scholar
wouldn't it just be easier for the character to hire some decker to get into the database holding all that dna info and just change it? Besides, they're never going to run a DNA check unless you give them a reason to.
nezumi
QUOTE (mmu1 @ Apr 28 2005, 10:09 AM)
In reality, it's not, nor will it ever be.

I have to ask... Why? Couldn't you design a virus that would go through and change each cell? As long as it doesn't actually damage the cell and with immuno-suppresants, you won't 'get better' from it. And any new cells from those infected cells will have the new DNA. Granted, you'll gradually change to match whatever the new DNA shows, but as long as you tinker with things we already know pretty well (eye color, hair color, height, etc.) many of the changes won't come about at all, and none of them should result in say suddenly growing breasts or cancer.

I expect it would still be a mish-mash between your new and old DNA, and the new one would take a few months at least to be the majority (since certain cells, like skin and hair, are dead, and some are alive, but probably safe from infection). I'd say the percentage of new DNA vs. old (and therefore, the chance of it working) would be based on the 'rating' of the treatment.
wagnern
Conserning dangers of altering genetic code.

Most of the DNA you or I have is unused. When something is obsolete, it is not erased it is just not used any more. (kinda like how you would type REM in front of lines in your autoexc.bat and config.sys when you wanted to remove them, but wanted to make shure they are not used.)

So if you change of bunch of this garbage code, it would not matter, you are not using it anyway.
Nikoli
You don't need a complete rewrite of the DNA. That's mutagenic in nature and painful, risky and seriously life threatening should it ever become possible.
However, you could alter some markers that aren't considered part of your blueprint so to speak. Remember those unused bits and pieces that they talked about with YOTC? You just need to alter enough to cast a shadow of a doubt, this doesn't have to be total reconstruction, we're just shaving a beard off and dying the hair figuratively speaking.

It should hurt like a mother, should not be perfect (shouldn't alter the signature too much) but should be enough to allow a good lawyer to get the case thrown out.
the_dunner
With Nanotech, all things are possible.
MYST1C
FYI:
The professor in my molecular genetics lecture brought up the "DNA fingerprint" topic just last week.
According to him only 7 different spots in the DNA are checked (micro satellites, alterations in repetitive sequences) to create a profile unique for every human being.
mmu1
QUOTE (M•$T1C)
FYI:
The professor in my molecular genetics lecture brought up the "DNA fingerprint" topic just last week.
According to him only 7 different spots in the DNA are checked (micro satellites, alterations in repetitive sequences) to create a profile unique for every human being.

Of course, there's nothing stopping you from checking more sites, or even sequencing large portions of the genome.Right now, forensic labs simply don't need to do that.

KarmaInferno
Water balloon, filled with bleach.

Fun and useful!

Plus in a pinch you can lob it at that sec guard's face.

biggrin.gif


-karma
nezumi
Karma, I don't even want to know how you think a water balloon full of bleach will help you CHANGE your DNA.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (nezumi)
Karma, I don't even want to know how you think a water balloon full of bleach will help you CHANGE your DNA.

Ack, was responding to a different thread. Yeek.

Moving it.


-karma
Edward
The retrovirus system could get almost all but many sells will have been infected more than once leading to complications. We cant yet insert the new code in a specific place so regardless of the benign nature of your new code you can get cancer from interrupting a pre-existing code.

Next you donít need to rewrite the entire sequence, just inserting short segments into the sections used to identify individuals (I believe they use inactive sections of the genome because they are more unique). Then it will not be as likely to be a match. In SR terms the treatment would have a rating which would make an apposed test with the DNA sequencer (machine or technician) to pass inspection

Edward
Nikoli
A better system would be a bioware that interfered with the swabbing process.
mmu1
QUOTE (Edward)
The retrovirus system could get almost all but many sells will have been infected more than once leading to complications. We cant yet insert the new code in a specific place so regardless of the benign nature of your new code you can get cancer from interrupting a pre-existing code.

Next you donít need to rewrite the entire sequence, just inserting short segments into the sections used to identify individuals (I believe they use inactive sections of the genome because they are more unique). Then it will not be as likely to be a match. In SR terms the treatment would have a rating which would make an apposed test with the DNA sequencer (machine or technician) to pass inspection

Edward

Except it's never quite this simple.

If you use a retrovirus (or any other biological vector) to insert sequences into the genome, you'll end up with pieces of that vector in your genes.

If the forensics people know this is possible, the first thing they'll routinely do is scan for the presence of various foreign genes in your DNA, letting them know whether you've undergone gene therapy or some other form of DNA restructuring - and if you did, that'll flag you for some extra attention, and a more comprehensive scan.

Replacing small segements of your DNA to protect your identity is a technique that a grad student with access to a university research lab would be able to take apart today, never mind 60 years from now. The only way around it is not a higher-rated "treatment", it's replacing enough DNA to make a match impossible, and doing it in enough of the cells that the unchanged DNA can't be picked up on.
nezumi
Edward, I SUSPECT you can set it to only replace a certain segment at a certain part, so there's no real concern about reinfection. Of course though, you'd only focus on the 1% of your DNA that makes you special. 98% of our DNA is identical from person to person, so there's no reason at all to even look at it, unless it shows up as special now due to SURGE, etc.
SpasticTeapot
I remember seeing some nifty nanotech that would cause DNA in cells to instantly change as soon as it's removed from the body. Blood samples would instantly be turned to that of Joe Nonexistent, making you pretty hard to trace.
Deamon_Knight
Uhh.. Why go throgh all the trouble? He has changed his look, you probably would have a much better chance of getting a decker to alter the FBI records. I can't see That as being much more difficult than changing your own DNA, or more expensive.
Edward
QUOTE (nezumi)
Edward, I SUSPECT you can set it to only replace a certain segment at a certain part, so there's no real concern about reinfection. Of course though, you'd only focus on the 1% of your DNA that makes you special. 98% of our DNA is identical from person to person, so there's no reason at all to even look at it, unless it shows up as special now due to SURGE, etc.

I have discussed this with people that do research in the aria. Gens being inserted in the wrong place is a major problem creating GM organisms. The current procedure is to modify many (I donít know how many exactly) tiny bits of tissue culture them to maturity, keep the ones that worked the way you want and throw eth rest away (hopefully in an incinerator) this system works well for GM plants, is a little annoying in modifying animals from the earliest stage of the egg and completely unacceptable in grown organisms.

Based on what gentech can do in SOTA 2063 I can only assume that the problem has been solved in the game world.

Altering eth FBI records is cool. Now go and do the same for the central sin repository, several databases in any corporation you have worked for, Interpol (or its equivalent), some place you probably never realised had a sample of your DNA and any database that pulls data from these places.

One idea would be a form of caserands plus that releases a chemical that breaks down DNA when exposed to the catalysts used in DNA sequencing. This may also protect you from ritual magic of set up correctly. If I ever play a character that has the resources I may just get that.

Edward
nezumi
QUOTE (Edward)
Gens being inserted in the wrong place is a major problem creating GM organisms. The current procedure is to modify many (I donít know how many exactly) tiny bits of tissue culture them to maturity, keep the ones that worked the way you want and throw eth rest away (hopefully in an incinerator) this system works well for GM plants, is a little annoying in modifying animals from the earliest stage of the egg and completely unacceptable in grown organisms.

Except that's for creating a genetically modified item 'from scratch'. If you're going to cut off my arm and clone a new one from modified DNA and attach that, well... That'll be a little messy and far too complex.

What's been suggested so far is a retrovirus inserted into the living person, set to only 'attack' a small, very precise segment of the DNA. This isn't adding on to, it's modifying. So the DNA strand will be just as long as it was before, but different.

Imagine the retrovirus is a key, and that particular segment of DNA is the lock it fits in. It'll match up with that, change it, then wander off. If a later incidence of the virus visits that cell, that 'lock' no longer exists (since it's been changed) so the virus can't 'click' with anything, and fails to reinfect the cell. No second modification.
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