I'm no expert at the drone rigger rules, but I do know that there's rules pertaining to interference from outside sources. If a particularly ingenious PC designed a (highly illegal) device consisting of a wide-band transmitter (A small capacitor and a couple of big coils of wire) wrapped around a REALLY big capacitor, a tiny battery, and a timer. (The power capacitor would be kept "topped off" by the small battery to maintain the charge). When the timer is started, it waits 5 seconds before completing a circut between the small capacitor, the large capacitor, and the coils. As the capacior discharges (over about a quarter-second), the resulting square wave would be converted to a rough radio wave moving accross a wide set of frequencies...such as those used for drones. This would require the rigger to essentially re-start his or her network, allowing for characters using old-fashioned weapons to rip 'em to shreds. Jammer technology is nothing new; this is just a simple, cheap, and disposable application which is only useful for applications where one would want to disrupt a network for a fraction of a second.
So, what do you think?
Full Version: EMF grenades.
Sounds a lot like a portable version of Barrage Jamming on page 85 of Rigger 3. Remember that Drones can act autonomously, using their autopilot to continue the last given command. This would only be useful to prevent Riggers from seeing what their drones are doing and "hopping in" a drone. The Steel Lynxes will still continue to happily shoot lead at their targets.
better go with a vehicle mounted telsa coil. my shop teacher manufactured a simmilar device (broadband jammer for police speed radar) and he needed a second alternator running a second ignition coil on his caddy. to do what you are saying you would need a very very large capasitor and the coild sould weigh several pounds. It's a good idea, but i don't think that it would be very man-portable and if your team uses any cybernetics, the induced signals could be a bit of a problem.
There arte rules and devises for doing this already.
Your cheep version would have problems such as targeting the correct frequency range, range and power supply.
I would allow somebody to build one but it would be a low rating (low flux) version of what is available in the book
Edward
Your cheep version would have problems such as targeting the correct frequency range, range and power supply.
I would allow somebody to build one but it would be a low rating (low flux) version of what is available in the book
Edward
krazy, i dont think cyberware would be hit much as outside of power and neural connections it seems to use optical chips and wireing exclusively (thats allso why we dont have emp grenades and shielding).
First, a capacitor about the size of a coffee mug can put out enough power to kill someone. That's at least enough power to drive a 5W transmitter.
Secondly, you're right on the whole capacitors-are-inaccurate thing. A small circut with an oscillator and something that cycles through them VERY fast. It would, either way, put out a strong signal (at least as strong as that of a VCR; you can broadcast halfway across the world on an eight-watt transmitter if you're lucky; so I doubt they're very strong.)
There's probbably rules for something like this in Rigger 3, but there's no good reason why the PC's could'nt just put a couple of good-sized transmitters on a car battery and turn it on whenever they get to their destination. Riggers would be disrupted on a variety of frequencies; the robots would get nothing but static.
Secondly, this would not affect cyberware any more than standing near a radio tower. A fifteen farad capacitor can put out quite a few watts for .25 seconds, but I doubt it would be more powerful than your local NPR outpost. Anything as expensive as cyberware would obviously have the 100 nuyen worth of sheilding that would be necessary in the modern world, or just use optical cables.
Secondly, you're right on the whole capacitors-are-inaccurate thing. A small circut with an oscillator and something that cycles through them VERY fast. It would, either way, put out a strong signal (at least as strong as that of a VCR; you can broadcast halfway across the world on an eight-watt transmitter if you're lucky; so I doubt they're very strong.)
There's probbably rules for something like this in Rigger 3, but there's no good reason why the PC's could'nt just put a couple of good-sized transmitters on a car battery and turn it on whenever they get to their destination. Riggers would be disrupted on a variety of frequencies; the robots would get nothing but static.
Secondly, this would not affect cyberware any more than standing near a radio tower. A fifteen farad capacitor can put out quite a few watts for .25 seconds, but I doubt it would be more powerful than your local NPR outpost. Anything as expensive as cyberware would obviously have the 100 nuyen worth of sheilding that would be necessary in the modern world, or just use optical cables.
| QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ Apr 30 2005, 03:42 AM) |
| As the capacior discharges (over about a quarter-second), the resulting square wave would be converted to a rough radio wave moving accross a wide set of frequencies...such as those used for drones. This would require the rigger to essentially re-start his or her network, allowing for characters using old-fashioned weapons to rip 'em to shreds. Jammer technology is nothing new; this is just a simple, cheap, and disposable application which is only useful for applications where one would want to disrupt a network for a fraction of a second. So, what do you think? |
I think that in the wireless-intensive environment of the future, the drones and riggers would ignore simple, uncoded radio noise like that even if it was on their frequency.
I mean, I'm sure there's lots of frequency sharing going on in a Shadowrun city. Wireless systems probably have filters to ignore signals that aren't digitally coded for them, which is why electronic warfare systems are generally pricey - they have to be clever to deal with filters.
Or they have to be powerful enough to actually damage the wireless systems. If you want to make a more potent EMP weapon without a nuke, read this website:
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchro...opp/apjemp.html
It could be an actual grenade, and it could bake wireless receivers on drones.
thanks hobgoblin, I totally forgot about optical, and if the cyber uses myomers instead of taditional wire coil motors there wouldn't be much to induce a signal into.
| QUOTE (Cray74) | ||
I think that in the wireless-intensive environment of the future, the drones and riggers would ignore simple, uncoded radio noise like that even if it was on their frequency. I mean, I'm sure there's lots of frequency sharing going on in a Shadowrun city. Wireless systems probably have filters to ignore signals that aren't digitally coded for them, which is why electronic warfare systems are generally pricey - they have to be clever to deal with filters. Or they have to be powerful enough to actually damage the wireless systems. If you want to make a more potent EMP weapon without a nuke, read this website: http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchro...opp/apjemp.html It could be an actual grenade, and it could bake wireless receivers on drones. |
I doubt that an actual grenade is possible without using unstable materials as a base. Unless you can pull a few terawatts out of thin air (total conversion of matter, anyone?), you pretty much need plutonium to make it work.
I personally like the idea of a microwave glove, though. So long as the antenna was unidirectional, it's possible to completely nuke electronics within a few inches of a hand-held device.
Now, consider what happens with microwave radiation and metal. Ever put two spoons in the microwave? Imagine that, but with trillions of nanoscopic fibers implanted into your muscles. Anyone with skillwires/wired reflexes would instantly take 18D stun damage.
Then again, a TC (Total Conversion of matter into energy) grenade makes both of these look tame. Imagine taking the entire energy ouput for the sun in one hour, and packing it into a poker chip, but backwards, and with the poker chip being placed inside a grenade. Anything nearby would instantly be hit with an insane amount of energy, be it EMS, heat, or electrical. (Think a flashpak, except that flashpaks do not normally vaporize people.) Of course, it's unfeasible with current technology or knowledge of physics, but it would make for some REALLY scary weapons.
Actually, am EMF grenade is an EXTREMELY EASY thing to make.
It's based on a type of generator called an Electromagnetic Flux Compressor (or Flux Compression Generator).
Basically an FCG converts explosive force into electric force. It's usually a high grade explosive core (directional, kind of like a claymore, but only it's more like a model rocket engine) surrounded by shileding and then cased in a copper coil/solenoid.
A seed voltage/current enters the coil and detonates the explosive at the same time. The length of coil shortens etremely fast as the explosive destroys the shell and ramps up the voltage in the coil. The opposite end of the coil is connected to an entenna.
These things generate a LOT of power. a standard duffel-bag sized 3-stage FCG (approximate build cost $400) using PBX explosives with a 50mW seed will put out about 800MW almost instantaneously...and the explosive is powerful enough to take out a light truck.
It's based on a type of generator called an Electromagnetic Flux Compressor (or Flux Compression Generator).
Basically an FCG converts explosive force into electric force. It's usually a high grade explosive core (directional, kind of like a claymore, but only it's more like a model rocket engine) surrounded by shileding and then cased in a copper coil/solenoid.
A seed voltage/current enters the coil and detonates the explosive at the same time. The length of coil shortens etremely fast as the explosive destroys the shell and ramps up the voltage in the coil. The opposite end of the coil is connected to an entenna.
These things generate a LOT of power. a standard duffel-bag sized 3-stage FCG (approximate build cost $400) using PBX explosives with a 50mW seed will put out about 800MW almost instantaneously...and the explosive is powerful enough to take out a light truck.
| QUOTE (Kaosaur) |
| Actually, am EMF grenade is an EXTREMELY EASY thing to make. It's based on a type of generator called an Electromagnetic Flux Compressor (or Flux Compression Generator). Basically an FCG converts explosive force into electric force. It's usually a high grade explosive core (directional, kind of like a claymore, but only it's more like a model rocket engine) surrounded by shileding and then cased in a copper coil/solenoid. A seed voltage/current enters the coil and detonates the explosive at the same time. The length of coil shortens etremely fast as the explosive destroys the shell and ramps up the voltage in the coil. The opposite end of the coil is connected to an entenna. These things generate a LOT of power. a standard duffel-bag sized 3-stage FCG (approximate build cost $400) using PBX explosives with a 50mW seed will put out about 800MW almost instantaneously...and the explosive is powerful enough to take out a light truck. |
Now that's something they don't tell you about in high school physics! I have little doubt that something of this type would wreak havoc on everything within a large radius.
Now, if you would only link us to a demonstration...
more on FCGs (this is 60 year old technology...)
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/ebomb.html
and others..do a google search
And yes, there IS a demonstration video out there somewhere...with a graph plot of the results. It was an Army test video, I believe. I don't recall exactly where I saw it though.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/ebomb.html
and others..do a google search
And yes, there IS a demonstration video out there somewhere...with a graph plot of the results. It was an Army test video, I believe. I don't recall exactly where I saw it though.
keep in mind that even today all government buildings, embassies and most large corporations design the structure/frame of their building as a giant Faraday Cage to protect against this sort of EMP attack and other electronic warfare....This would definately be something you'd have to activate indoors to get to work if you want in 2060.
Might be a good idea on corporate extraction runs...but anything where you'll need a decker or want to bypass certain locking procedures, this would be a bad idea....
Some types of high-end security doors/locks seal shut when their electronics are damaged/fail.
Might be a good idea on corporate extraction runs...but anything where you'll need a decker or want to bypass certain locking procedures, this would be a bad idea....
Some types of high-end security doors/locks seal shut when their electronics are damaged/fail.
It takes a a lot les power to kill somebody than it dose to squash a narrow band transmission with barrage jamming, and that is what your trying to do. You talk about a 5 watt transmitter and assume it is stronger than a VCR. Based on range I will agree with you. But your 5 watts is spread over several hundred channels at 10 mili watts per channel your hardly going to be noticeable next to the background noise of radio traffic in the 2060s. every radio device in shadow run has a reasonably good system for eliminating random noise, they have to.
Eth EMP created by an FCG is specifically listed as useless in SR3 due to the prevalence of optical chips. I admit this is highly improbably under current theories of physics (you still need an electric laser to create light for the optical processor and your radio receivers can create sympathetic currents that destroy the receiver) but this is something we except in the game. Summing the system will survive such an EMP it will be to short to have a noticeable effect on communication.
Edward
Eth EMP created by an FCG is specifically listed as useless in SR3 due to the prevalence of optical chips. I admit this is highly improbably under current theories of physics (you still need an electric laser to create light for the optical processor and your radio receivers can create sympathetic currents that destroy the receiver) but this is something we except in the game. Summing the system will survive such an EMP it will be to short to have a noticeable effect on communication.
Edward
| QUOTE (Edward) |
| It takes a a lot les power to kill somebody than it dose to squash a narrow band transmission with barrage jamming, and that is what your trying to do. You talk about a 5 watt transmitter and assume it is stronger than a VCR. Based on range I will agree with you. But your 5 watts is spread over several hundred channels at 10 mili watts per channel your hardly going to be noticeable next to the background noise of radio traffic in the 2060s. every radio device in shadow run has a reasonably good system for eliminating random noise, they have to. Eth EMP created by an FCG is specifically listed as useless in SR3 due to the prevalence of optical chips. I admit this is highly improbably under current theories of physics (you still need an electric laser to create light for the optical processor and your radio receivers can create sympathetic currents that destroy the receiver) but this is something we except in the game. Summing the system will survive such an EMP it will be to short to have a noticeable effect on communication. Edward |
That is good to know.
FCG is cheap and easy to set off and is game-breaking in its potential.
| QUOTE (Kaosaur) |
| That is good to know. FCG is cheap and easy to set off and is game-breaking in its potential. |
I don't see what's so game-breaking about it. It's the same as barrage jamming, and it only lasts for a few seconds. If you are facing a single drone being piloted directly by a rigger, you might buy a few seconds of time while the autopilot takes over and the rigger has to reorient himself and jump back into the drone. But if you are facing multiple drones, they are all already operating on autopilot, and can still gun you down.
Look at the time scale on the page Kaosaur linked to. You don’t get a couple of seconds you get a couple of nano seconds interruption. To the rigger in the drone that will look like a single missing line on a single frame of a TV transmission, that is to say he will be lucky to notice it.
if it was to behave as logic dictates it would be truly game breaking. A single grenade of that type would disable all drones, electrical devises (including the laser power supplies of optical processors) and cyber wear (threw the mechanical actuators and laser power supplies) within the radius of effect.
The only characters that wont be completely destroyed are magicals that will probably run around with belts full of EMP grenades.
Edward
if it was to behave as logic dictates it would be truly game breaking. A single grenade of that type would disable all drones, electrical devises (including the laser power supplies of optical processors) and cyber wear (threw the mechanical actuators and laser power supplies) within the radius of effect.
The only characters that wont be completely destroyed are magicals that will probably run around with belts full of EMP grenades.
Edward
| QUOTE (SpasticTeapot) | ||
I doubt that an actual grenade is possible without using unstable materials as a base. Unless you can pull a few terawatts out of thin air (total conversion of matter, anyone?), you pretty much need plutonium to make it work. |
That line about terawatts makes me think you didn't read the USAF article I linked. The article described how to pull terawatts out of thin air without plutonium:
"The explosively pumped FCG is the most mature technology applicable to bomb designs. The FCG was first demonstrated by Clarence Fowler at Los Alamos National Laboratories (LANL) in the late fifties [FOWLER60]. Since that time a wide range of FCG configurations has been built and tested, both in the US and the USSR, and more recently CIS.
The FCG is a device capable of producing electrical energies of tens of MegaJoules in tens to hundreds of microseconds of time, in a relatively compact package. With peak power levels of the order of TeraWatts to tens of TeraWatts, FCGs may be used directly, or as one shot pulse power supplies for microwave tubes. To place this in perspective, the current produced by a large FCG is between ten to a thousand times greater than that produced by a typical lightning stroke [WHITE78]."
| QUOTE |
| Then again, a TC (Total Conversion of matter into energy) grenade makes both of these look tame. Imagine taking the entire energy ouput for the sun in one hour, and packing it into a poker chip, but backwards, and with the poker chip being placed inside a grenade. |
If that pokerchip is the matter being converted to matter, then that statement is an exaggeration. Hyperbole, in fact.
Something the size of a poker chip (2.5cm diameter, .2cm thick, made of tungsten for the highest conversion mass) is about 19 grams. If that's converted completely to energy, the energy release is:
E = MC^2
E = (.019kg)(300000000m/s)^2
E = 1.71 x10^15 Joules
A megaton of TNT releases 4.2x10^15J, so that pokerchip-sized chunk of matter will release about 400 kilotons if completely converted to energy. 400 kilotons is a nice bang by most standards, but it doesn't measure up to one hour's output of the sun.
Hmm..
I did a little bit more digging/research on this subject today and spoke to someone who gave me some great insight on the subject.
Shadowrun has perfectly predicted that EMP/EMF weapons will become almost useless in the future.
The answer: nanotridoes.
Basically when High Energy is introduced to a circuit, it finds the "shortest path" blah blah that you're all familiar with...anyway, the reason that EMP is so devestating to electronics is that any insulators that get in the way of two conductors will be punched through.
This permanently damages transistors (and probably capacitors as well)...With nanotriodes, there is no physical insulator (it's similar to a vacuum tube) to be damaged. The circuit will still fail in the presence of HE, but once the energy dissipates, it will return to normal function, as long as there were no other harmed conductors.
Most conductors can be hardened against this sort of attack.
I did a little bit more digging/research on this subject today and spoke to someone who gave me some great insight on the subject.
Shadowrun has perfectly predicted that EMP/EMF weapons will become almost useless in the future.
The answer: nanotridoes.
Basically when High Energy is introduced to a circuit, it finds the "shortest path" blah blah that you're all familiar with...anyway, the reason that EMP is so devestating to electronics is that any insulators that get in the way of two conductors will be punched through.
This permanently damages transistors (and probably capacitors as well)...With nanotriodes, there is no physical insulator (it's similar to a vacuum tube) to be damaged. The circuit will still fail in the presence of HE, but once the energy dissipates, it will return to normal function, as long as there were no other harmed conductors.
Most conductors can be hardened against this sort of attack.
so basicly a optical chip cant be shorted, right?
and with nonvolatile storage one could guess that if a system falls under the effect of a emp wave it will pick up where it left of when the wave have passed. ie, active memory is able to store its state so that the mpcp can just pick up where it left of.
that is as long as it was not in the middle of a write prosess, but then if one is smart then one keeps a backup around until the write prosess is done and then trows away the backup. if something fails in the middle of the write then one just trow away the faulty write and start over.
in fact i have lately wonderd about the need for active memory. if one is able to create a chip that can store data in a nonvolatile way and can handle read and writes to a speed compareable to todays ram or flash, but with unlimited numbers of rewrites then there realy is no need for "ram".
the reason we have ram today is that most mass storage devices is so damn slow. just look at how much your computer slows down the moment it have to hit the swap.
only thing that can be a problem is reboots. but thats more or less similar to just zeroing all variables.
and with nonvolatile storage one could guess that if a system falls under the effect of a emp wave it will pick up where it left of when the wave have passed. ie, active memory is able to store its state so that the mpcp can just pick up where it left of.
that is as long as it was not in the middle of a write prosess, but then if one is smart then one keeps a backup around until the write prosess is done and then trows away the backup. if something fails in the middle of the write then one just trow away the faulty write and start over.
in fact i have lately wonderd about the need for active memory. if one is able to create a chip that can store data in a nonvolatile way and can handle read and writes to a speed compareable to todays ram or flash, but with unlimited numbers of rewrites then there realy is no need for "ram".
the reason we have ram today is that most mass storage devices is so damn slow. just look at how much your computer slows down the moment it have to hit the swap.
only thing that can be a problem is reboots. but thats more or less similar to just zeroing all variables.
Okay, so the bit about the total-energy-of-the-sun bit was an exaggeration, but 400 kilotons is about 399.99999 kilotons more than an average grenade.
I also mentioned I was wrong, and am quite impressed with the FCG. I'm not omnipotent, and I'm not claiming that I am, either. You're right, and I'm wrong.
On the issue of optical chips, one must consider that RF is RF, and must be converted to optical via some ordinary semiconductor-based technology. (A few FET's or capacitors, if nothing else, would likely be a part of the signal amplification circutry, perhaps along with an IC or two.) Although much of a SR-style computer would be pretty much unharmed (the lasers would likely just stop working for a tenth of a second; the motors might glitch a bit), the RF-to-optical converter bits would all stand a pretty good chance of being fried, or at least damaged. (Because there's no way to directly convert RF to optical without ordinary electronics in-between, riggers are likely to take cyberware stress, too.)
I also mentioned I was wrong, and am quite impressed with the FCG. I'm not omnipotent, and I'm not claiming that I am, either. You're right, and I'm wrong.
On the issue of optical chips, one must consider that RF is RF, and must be converted to optical via some ordinary semiconductor-based technology. (A few FET's or capacitors, if nothing else, would likely be a part of the signal amplification circutry, perhaps along with an IC or two.) Although much of a SR-style computer would be pretty much unharmed (the lasers would likely just stop working for a tenth of a second; the motors might glitch a bit), the RF-to-optical converter bits would all stand a pretty good chance of being fried, or at least damaged. (Because there's no way to directly convert RF to optical without ordinary electronics in-between, riggers are likely to take cyberware stress, too.)
aye.
Honestly my knowledge is a bit limited as to how far exactly the weapon would go in damaging 2060-era gear.
Let me think on it a while. I hope I'm not "trying to be right"...I was just love talking about FCGs. ;D
Honestly my knowledge is a bit limited as to how far exactly the weapon would go in damaging 2060-era gear.
Let me think on it a while. I hope I'm not "trying to be right"...I was just love talking about FCGs. ;D
| QUOTE (Kaosaur) |
| aye. Honestly my knowledge is a bit limited as to how far exactly the weapon would go in damaging 2060-era gear. Let me think on it a while. I hope I'm not "trying to be right"...I was just love talking about FCGs. ;D |
RF has to be converted into electricity before anything else. That's how a radio works. Theoreticaly, an optical chip could do decoding, but it would still need something to amplify the power and pulse the input.
ok so you loose the amp, make it easy to replace and have some shielded spares handy 
Although spare RF transceivers would be a workable solution for personal units or units on a vehicle a remote drone will have some difficulty replacing a part.
Edward
Edward
hmm, i made a post here but i cant seem to see it now.
set up redundant systems. most allready do if its a critical one.
still, that only counts as long as a system can survive this if powerd down...
set up redundant systems. most allready do if its a critical one.
still, that only counts as long as a system can survive this if powerd down...
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| hmm, i made a post here but i cant seem to see it now. set up redundant systems. most allready do if its a critical one. still, that only counts as long as a system can survive this if powerd down... |
You did. However, Neuron Basher ported the boards back to the old machine, and a couple hours of posts were lost:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=8407
| QUOTE (hahnsoo) | ||
You did. However, Neuron Basher ported the boards back to the old machine, and a couple hours of posts were lost: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=8407 |
Convenient cover story - my money's on Kaosaur demonstrating an FCG!
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