One of my friends was put in charge of his groups tailor shop, which had no sewing machines and no budget for equipment. He informs me that there is a military specific craigslist-like exchange, where he traded for the parts he needed, and then he tricked the machine shop into fabricating the sewing machines for him.
Military life is different indeed.
Full Version: Infantry in 2070
I could see Skill Softs being issued to Soldiers only if the Soldiers were going straight from basic training into a meat grinder that was hungery for bodies, simply because there is no time for training....but when there is no war currently calling for more blood, the Infantry has nothing but time to train with.
And yes, Military Life is different, very different
And yes, Military Life is different, very different
I still think modern warfare experiences show than en masse armies, even trained ones, will get cleaned up by modern air and naval power. I see Air Assault Infantry as the troops of the future, fighting in Urban Terrain, rather than Mech Infantry in open terrain.
Back on topic: Conscripts whacked out on drugs is probably the most cyberpunkish route. Kamikaze, Cram, and Jazz are indeed all combat drugs. But none are milspec. It is not inconceivable that the military has much less damaging drugs than those. Of course, thats up to you as GM.
As for skillwires, the problem is that your troops aren't going to get better. Now, depending on the military, they may not care.
I still think the most likely way for a soldier to get access to cyber would be to agree to an extended enlistment. Like, say, twenty years.
edit: I think the question of US vs China would matter almost entirely on where it was fought. US invades China, US has problems projecting enough force across the Pacific to win. China invades US, USN hands out awards to the warship that sinks the most Chinese transports. Neither scenario is likely.
Back on topic: Conscripts whacked out on drugs is probably the most cyberpunkish route. Kamikaze, Cram, and Jazz are indeed all combat drugs. But none are milspec. It is not inconceivable that the military has much less damaging drugs than those. Of course, thats up to you as GM.
As for skillwires, the problem is that your troops aren't going to get better. Now, depending on the military, they may not care.
I still think the most likely way for a soldier to get access to cyber would be to agree to an extended enlistment. Like, say, twenty years.
edit: I think the question of US vs China would matter almost entirely on where it was fought. US invades China, US has problems projecting enough force across the Pacific to win. China invades US, USN hands out awards to the warship that sinks the most Chinese transports. Neither scenario is likely.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Dragon Skin did receive NIJ Level III certification on December 20, 2006 and heat testing conducted by Stanford University Medical Center showed that the Dragon Skin is able to withstand temperatures of up to 170 F and tests conducted by NBC show that Dragon Skin is more reliable against multiple impacts than Interceptor is. |
It's not nice to fraudulently label and sell NIJ certified products to the government when they are not certified. USAF has formally excluded Pinnacle from contracts as of June 21, 2007 and a criminal investigation is progressing.
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/06/airf...cleban_070612a/
"Pinnacle has submitted seven models of Dragon Skin-based armor to NIJ since May 2006, Morgan said. The company resubmitted two of the seven models after inconclusive results. Of those nine submissions, five failed to comply with NIJ standards, one passed, two were found to be inconclusive and one is pending, Morgan said."
NBC is the same organization that had video proof of how GM pickup trucks were unsafe and would catch fire when hit from the side. In an odd coincidence, it turned out that their "test" was actually a rigged demo in which the gas tank was ignited by pyrotechnics. NBC of course lied about this until it was proven by GM exactly how they had rigged the video. So I don't tend to believe a video from a a media conglomerate whose only interest is ratings and has been shown to lie about how their "tests" are conducted.
If you want to get a vest 50% heavier and twice the cost that can't reliably stop bullets Murray Neal is there to sell it to you.
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||||
Really? I do not see the US taking on China. Until we do, I'd reserve judgement on that question. I wasn't talking about untrained 3rd world militias or semi-professional armies weakened by any number of factors. I was talking about trained(but not truly professional), large in number and cost-effectively supported armies like China's. "China will grow larger!"  |
Metahuman wave armies win against professional armies when they are on offense and lose against professional armies when they are on defense, as the British and the Zulu can tell you.
This is a big question of strategy and the ability of the metahuman wave army to neutralize the professional army's long-range targeting ability.
The real problem is that with cruise missiles and satellites, a modern professional army that is unconstrained by rules of engagement never has to put a single foot onto the ground and can take out a traditional land army from a very long distance. The modern professional army can be on constant offense.
In the end, it depends entirely on strategy and circumstances, like most things, as well as intelligence and coordination.
| QUOTE (Kingmaker) |
| I still think modern warfare experiences show than en masse armies, even trained ones, will get cleaned up by modern air and naval power. I see Air Assault Infantry as the troops of the future, fighting in Urban Terrain, rather than Mech Infantry in open terrain. [snip] edit: I think the question of US vs China would matter almost entirely on where it was fought. |
Unlikely. I'd argue that it's highly likely that the F-35 is going to be the last manned combat aircraft that USAF ever does. Over the next two decades DEW are going to make flying around much more dangerous than it's ever been in the past, and solid state lasers are continuing to get better over time. A 1 megawatt sized engine (a bit smaller than an M1 turbine) linked to a supercapacitor bank can drive just about whatever sized laser you can haul around, (once there is a large enough and good solid state laser to be worth hauling around).
And the most likely US vs China fight involves Taiwan, not either side invading each other. Given the interesting nationalist politics on either side of the Straits it's not that unlikely. It's totally insane, but not that unlikely.
On the Dragon Skin thing, I would definitely say that the whole thing seems pretty fishy to me.
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,1331...,138277,00.html
Failing this badly after prior tests (including NIJIII tests, including an independent Stanford test: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,1331...138277,00.html) seems amazingly coincidental.
I would have to say that this whole thing brings out the conspiracy theorist in me.
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,1331...,138277,00.html
Failing this badly after prior tests (including NIJIII tests, including an independent Stanford test: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,1331...138277,00.html) seems amazingly coincidental.
I would have to say that this whole thing brings out the conspiracy theorist in me.
Let's see what infantry (including small drones in the 2070s) is actually good for. Securing buildings, towns and otherwise obstructed terrain. Of course they can be used for more than that, but that is where they shine at. It is just impossible to hold a town with some tanks or an airplane. This is a lesson the military at large has learned already today and I doubt this doctrine will change much.
Of course in a high technical army drones will cover some of the crappy jobs like clearing a bunker or entering a building first.
However, as nice as drones are, they need service. Technology is prone to failure, especially if exposed to bad climate and gunfire (or a combination). While normal soldiers are prone to failure due to gunfire they handle shitty climate better, they don't jam because a sand corn slipped into the controls etc etc. Their motivation might drop a bit but we got drugs for that - or personachips if you are one of the mean guys, and hey we talk about people who happily wage war for some
worth of resources. And you would have a life-long conscript. Starting to like the idea.
As noted before in this thread, personal armor reduces lethality rates at a really good ratio. It doesn't really matter what kind of body armor is better today or what company has the better propaganda on YouTube - got a nice run idea out of it though. What matters is, that probably all grunts are going to wear one just like today. There might even be a niche for Full Body suits, but in a running campaign they would just be too bulky, complicated and expensive to use.
As for conventional warfare, as 'interesting' as it might be to see a conventional war between nations, it's not going to happen. Yes, SR canon has some cases, but I highly doubt that most conflicts would have worked the way they were depicted from a social or military perspective. For the ease of SR history I will not further question that. It is 'history'.
Of course in a high technical army drones will cover some of the crappy jobs like clearing a bunker or entering a building first.
However, as nice as drones are, they need service. Technology is prone to failure, especially if exposed to bad climate and gunfire (or a combination). While normal soldiers are prone to failure due to gunfire they handle shitty climate better, they don't jam because a sand corn slipped into the controls etc etc. Their motivation might drop a bit but we got drugs for that - or personachips if you are one of the mean guys, and hey we talk about people who happily wage war for some
worth of resources. And you would have a life-long conscript. Starting to like the idea. As noted before in this thread, personal armor reduces lethality rates at a really good ratio. It doesn't really matter what kind of body armor is better today or what company has the better propaganda on YouTube - got a nice run idea out of it though. What matters is, that probably all grunts are going to wear one just like today. There might even be a niche for Full Body suits, but in a running campaign they would just be too bulky, complicated and expensive to use.
As for conventional warfare, as 'interesting' as it might be to see a conventional war between nations, it's not going to happen. Yes, SR canon has some cases, but I highly doubt that most conflicts would have worked the way they were depicted from a social or military perspective. For the ease of SR history I will not further question that. It is 'history'.
| QUOTE (Wakshaani) |
| Depends, hugely, on the country. The UCAS, for example, has a fairly small "Border patrol" of bulky body infantry and armor, mostly along the Sioux border but a few along the CAS as well. They rely more on small squads of elite troopers (Rangers, Seals, etc) that go in, do a job, then get out. Very strike-pointed. |
Maybe. I'm fairly certain that the UCAS retains much of the old USA's foreign policy, which means plenty of posts/bases in allied countries, and a significant amount of deployed or deployable personnel. And the UCAS's relationship with the CAS is not a hostile one. I see no reason for them to have more than a token force assigned to defense of their southern border.
| QUOTE |
| Aztlan, meanwhile, has a HUGE conventional force, tied up along four borders, stretched thin and of average (At best) quality. They lack any real special forces, instead contracting that out to Aztechnology which has little conventional but gobs of SpecOps. |
I can certainly get on board with that assessment.
| QUOTE |
| The CAS, meanwhile, has the largest conventional army in North America (Possibly in the world!) and has high-end training as well, but skimps a bit on technology. The CAS special forces are similar, guys with little gear but amazing skill. |
I'm not sure if you've read something that has led you to the conclusion that the CAS Army would be behind the tech curve, but if you have, I'd really appreciate a page reference. The CAS != the Confederate South of the 1860s. If anything, I would put them on the bleeding edge of Milspec technology. They have a hostile neighbor that has already invaded and taken territory, they have the Infantry Warfare School at Ft. Benning (GA), the John F. Kennedy School of Special Warfare at Ft. Bragg, and a more historic tradition of military service. It would be be in their best interest to stay at the top of the militech power curve.
And for the life of me, I cannot remotely grasp the concept of Special Operations units being "poorly equipped."
| QUOTE |
| Magic has been integrated into all militaries, but how *well* is a whole other story. |
I would expect that conventional Magical Assets would have their own units (i.e. The 909th Thaumaturgical Applications Group), but would be attached, as individuals, to Brigade, and possibly even Battalion sized elements. You would likely see a few in Special Operations as well.
| QUOTE |
| As for cyberware, never on the grunts ... that's what combat drugs are for. Why drop 11K per soldier for Wires when you can give very soldier five hundred bucks in Combat Drugs and expect to get almost all of that back? Everyone keeps two, maybe three hits of Jazz on their vest, never using it in 99.99% of what a soldier's life entails, but, if a firefight breaks out, they're ready to go. If they decide to blow off the service? Well, you can just hand those inhalers back in and pass 'em to the next body that signs up. |
I agree with your reasoning for lack of cyber amongst the rank and file, but I don't think the CAS/UCAS would go the "combat drug" route. Despite our collective experiences with combat in Shadowrun, I assure you that it "at least 2 initiative passes" is not a prereq for surviving combat.
| QUOTE |
| Gear can also vary widely, from the African "Villager with an AK-97 and a spare clip" to a CAS soldier in Medium Armor with Ares Assault Rifle, full sensor suite and commlink helmet HUD. The *average* would probably be: Armored Vest Armored Helmet with lowlight, thermo, flare comp, and smartlink. Ares Alpha/AK-97 (Either with two spare clips) extra ammo for long patrols Survival Knife Three Inhalers with combat drug (Usually Jazz) Trauma Patch Medi-Kit (1) Survival Kit Plus general gear (Entrenching tool, bedroll, canteen, MRE, etc) |
Gear is also going to vary widely from mission to mission (MOUT vs. Woodland LRP) and unit to unit (Rangers vs. Mech Inf). And I think two spare magazines is way below what you'd see an Infantry Soldier carry. 6 is probably a lot closer to reality.
| QUOTE (jmecha) |
| I assure you that training a Soilder is actually pretty cheap. Pvt Joe Snuffy Joins the Army for 5 years. Day One of those Five Years he does not know a damn thing about being a Soldier but he his assigned to a team leader and is part of a Squad filled with Soldiers who have been doing their jobs longer then Day One Joe Snuffy and they know more shit then he can ever imagine. There is no war that Joe Snuffy's Army is currently engaged in so he spends day in and day out surrounded by all of these people who know more then he does about the Army and they do their best to train Joe Snuffy so that way when they all eventually go to war together Joe Snuffy is useful and does not do something stupid to get them all killed. When there is no war at hand and Soilders are not immediately being sent straight to the front lines of a war, they get assigned to units in garression somewhere. Infantry Soldiers have nothing to do in garresion except to spend their time training constantly. In time though Joe Snuffy gets promoted and actually knows alot about his proffession and now he is one of the soldiers who trains the new guys on a daily basis while still constantly being drilled and tested by the people above him. With every passing year there are new soldiers who need training and soldiers who have the experince of previous years to train them. As far as price goes...you have to feed and house and pay all of theese soldiers anyway, the actual training they recieve from eachother is free. There is money spent on all of the equipment they train with, but that is all equipment they would need regardless if they were training or trained by Skill Soft. The only real price of training as far as equipment goes is the price of the ammo they are expending at firing ranges and even if soldiers where skill softed up they would be routinely taken to ranges and what not to drill anyway. The Army Infantry Trains it's self, the claims that it cost large amounts of money to train soldiers is a lie. Experinced Soldiers train Inexperinced Soldiers and the cycle repeats. The money that is "spent on training" is just the money it costs to feed and house and equip all thoose soilders being trained, and you have to house and feed them no matter if they have skill softs or not. So why spend money on equipping each soldier with skill softs, when if they can just learn thoose skills from the people who they are going to be living and working with anyway who can train them? |
You have GOT to be kidding me? You don't ACTUALLY believe this is how it works, do you? No Basic Training, no AIT, no Airborne/Air Assault/Sniper/Ranger schools?
WTF?
You need to get a clue, or at least talk to someone who has actually served.
With the amount of money spent on training a soldier (I'm totally discounting all arguments that a modern infantryman is cheap to train as I find no factual basis for them) I fail to see how cyberware wouldn't be issued to individuals assigned to combat units.
You want increased troop survivability without an increase in armor weight? Dermal Plating and a Platelet Factory. This would cost literally nothing compared to the amount spent on basic training alone, and I can't think of anything that would be a greater morale booster. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is the biggest gripe I hear from jarheads today.
Increased troop lethality? Attention Coprocessor. It cost nine thousand nuyen and will increase the average soldier's ability to process sensory data (a Perception test) by fifty percent. That means fewer ambushes, fewer casualties, and oh yeah, more dead bad guys who really thought they were well camouflaged and damned near invisible.
Now, for some reason reaction boosting ware seems to get shot down the most when considering a soldier's needs, but the ability to DUCK! fast as all get out is rather paramount. So a Reaction Enhancer would seem plausible, but oh wait, Wired Reflexes 1 costs only ten percent more. So I'd say one of them would see widespread use.
So far that's 64-65 thousand bucks. In return for which the fielding force would see soldiers that are far more likely to survive combat wounds and faster to return to fighting trim, much harder to ambush, better at locating the enemy (a necessary precedent to killing the enemy), and better able to seek cover or return fire before the enemy can do much harm.
As for the CAS.
Well, they've got a carrier (pretty sure Japan has/had some too though), they've got Special Forces training grounds littering up the place, they've got the Stonewall (the tank that put the M (for M-F'ing) back in MBT), and I believe (though I may be wrong) that they're noted as having remarkably well integrated magical forces. And, of course, they've got Freebird!
Now, as far as integrating magicians into forces goes, SR canon has repeatedly presented that the force with tactical integration at the platoon level succeeds over forces with less flexible structuring. (Okay, that sentence didn't even make much sense to me, but I'm sure someone not cramming can better run with my point)
Finally, I see longer enlistment terms as not only inevitable, but probably desirable by all parties. The military gets more veteran troops and the troops get that most rare of properties: a regular paycheck from the same employer, guaranteed pensions, and health benefits.
This the realistic approach. For more cyberpunk simply take two parts "endless propaganda onslaught from birth", mix with one part "personafix brainwashing" and pepper liberally with "serve loyally or your family dies". Optional garnishes include regular forces being deployed as internal police and mandatory testing following primary state-run education with the high scorers earning mandatory military service. And with enough propaganda, the kids will even stay up late studying for that test.
Must stop letting my brain vomit on keyboard and study. Rrrr...
Edited for tags.
You want increased troop survivability without an increase in armor weight? Dermal Plating and a Platelet Factory. This would cost literally nothing compared to the amount spent on basic training alone, and I can't think of anything that would be a greater morale booster. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is the biggest gripe I hear from jarheads today.
Increased troop lethality? Attention Coprocessor. It cost nine thousand nuyen and will increase the average soldier's ability to process sensory data (a Perception test) by fifty percent. That means fewer ambushes, fewer casualties, and oh yeah, more dead bad guys who really thought they were well camouflaged and damned near invisible.
Now, for some reason reaction boosting ware seems to get shot down the most when considering a soldier's needs, but the ability to DUCK! fast as all get out is rather paramount. So a Reaction Enhancer would seem plausible, but oh wait, Wired Reflexes 1 costs only ten percent more. So I'd say one of them would see widespread use.
So far that's 64-65 thousand bucks. In return for which the fielding force would see soldiers that are far more likely to survive combat wounds and faster to return to fighting trim, much harder to ambush, better at locating the enemy (a necessary precedent to killing the enemy), and better able to seek cover or return fire before the enemy can do much harm.
As for the CAS.
Well, they've got a carrier (pretty sure Japan has/had some too though), they've got Special Forces training grounds littering up the place, they've got the Stonewall (the tank that put the M (for M-F'ing) back in MBT), and I believe (though I may be wrong) that they're noted as having remarkably well integrated magical forces. And, of course, they've got Freebird! Now, as far as integrating magicians into forces goes, SR canon has repeatedly presented that the force with tactical integration at the platoon level succeeds over forces with less flexible structuring. (Okay, that sentence didn't even make much sense to me, but I'm sure someone not cramming can better run with my point)
Finally, I see longer enlistment terms as not only inevitable, but probably desirable by all parties. The military gets more veteran troops and the troops get that most rare of properties: a regular paycheck from the same employer, guaranteed pensions, and health benefits.
This the realistic approach. For more cyberpunk simply take two parts "endless propaganda onslaught from birth", mix with one part "personafix brainwashing" and pepper liberally with "serve loyally or your family dies". Optional garnishes include regular forces being deployed as internal police and mandatory testing following primary state-run education with the high scorers earning mandatory military service. And with enough propaganda, the kids will even stay up late studying for that test.
Must stop letting my brain vomit on keyboard and study. Rrrr...
Edited for tags.
freebird?
Dude? Skynyrd? Seriously?
I weep for today's youth.
I weep for today's youth.
So, of course, Shadows of North America picks *now* to go into hiding.
Harumph.
Well, since my closet refuses to divulge secrets, if you'll grab your own, sure to be handier, copy, you'll see a chat about the assorted militaries. There it notes teh Aztlan forces, UCAS, Sioux, and, yes, teh CAS, which is listed as teh largest and well-trained, but lacking in tech. In smaller areas, however, they're bleeding edge, such as their submersable carrier tech, which no one else has, and a main manufacturer of T-birds.
The CAS is closer to the modern USA military than the UCAS, which doesn't actually protect the world anymore. They have too many problems on their own borders and pulled out of NATO and asia decades ago.
Of course, there's never been a book about the CAS, so, we've never gotten to look that deep into my homeland.
Alas, alas.
Harumph.
Well, since my closet refuses to divulge secrets, if you'll grab your own, sure to be handier, copy, you'll see a chat about the assorted militaries. There it notes teh Aztlan forces, UCAS, Sioux, and, yes, teh CAS, which is listed as teh largest and well-trained, but lacking in tech. In smaller areas, however, they're bleeding edge, such as their submersable carrier tech, which no one else has, and a main manufacturer of T-birds.
The CAS is closer to the modern USA military than the UCAS, which doesn't actually protect the world anymore. They have too many problems on their own borders and pulled out of NATO and asia decades ago.
Of course, there's never been a book about the CAS, so, we've never gotten to look that deep into my homeland.
Alas, alas.
| QUOTE (TheOneRonin) |
| You have GOT to be kidding me? You don't ACTUALLY believe this is how it works, do you? No Basic Training, no AIT, no Airborne/Air Assault/Sniper/Ranger schools? WTF? You need to get a clue, or at least talk to someone who has actually served. |
If you notice, I rate the training for three months. Infantry basic training (which includes AIT, amazingly enough) is 13 weeks. Ditto Marines.
Air Assault School is two weeks, Airborne is three. However, a large number of soldiers WILL NOT go to those schools, especially in a stripped down army. If you want to charge the cost of plane ticket for each jump in airborne school (a bullshit expense, the air force is going to fly those cargo haulers for training if nothing else...), five jumps STILL don't add up to hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Sniper school is not going to be hideously expensive in training. Compared to what I outlined above? Maybe a little, but you are talking maybe 10-20% of the infantry, and none at all of non-infantry MOS's.
Ranger school? Please. That's your 'elite soldiers' that everyone goes on about, and again it's not nearly as expensive as you make out. Your instructors are soldiers, paid one way or another for the two months they are training the troops. The troops still earn the same paychecks they do anyway, consume the same food (if less of it) and stay in 30 year old buildings, using recycled materials.
WTF. 14 years and counting, asshole.
| QUOTE (Spike) | ||
If you notice, I rate the training for three months. Infantry basic training (which includes AIT, amazingly enough) is 13 weeks. Ditto Marines. Air Assault School is two weeks, Airborne is three. However, a large number of soldiers WILL NOT go to those schools, especially in a stripped down army. If you want to charge the cost of plane ticket for each jump in airborne school (a bullshit expense, the air force is going to fly those cargo haulers for training if nothing else...), five jumps STILL don't add up to hundreds of thousands of dollars. Sniper school is not going to be hideously expensive in training. Compared to what I outlined above? Maybe a little, but you are talking maybe 10-20% of the infantry, and none at all of non-infantry MOS's. Ranger school? Please. That's your 'elite soldiers' that everyone goes on about, and again it's not nearly as expensive as you make out. Your instructors are soldiers, paid one way or another for the two months they are training the troops. The troops still earn the same paychecks they do anyway, consume the same food (if less of it) and stay in 30 year old buildings, using recycled materials. WTF. 14 years and counting, asshole. |
Whoa hoss...hold on there. My reply was directed at jmecha's post above. Read it...he basically says that there is no training...that a soldier enlists and ships out to his unit, and all he gets is OJT.
In regards to your comments on training, I don't disagree. I did Basic+Mech Inf training in 15 weeks, so your training times are spot on. But I still think that training costs overall are higher than you think. Facilities, trainers, training equipment...hell, the Army has a whole command dedicated to training (TRADOC). Their salaries play a part.
But with your 14 years to my 6, I will glady bow to your larger quantity of experience.
| QUOTE (Kyrn) |
| Dude? Skynyrd? Seriously? I weep for today's youth. |
heh, i had heard about the group, but never that song.
but then im hopeless at picking up whats being played when im somewhere that do not play what passes for "mainstream music" these days...
I've gotta say that the salaries of the trainers and trainees are way way way towards the bottom of the pile of expenses training incurs. I'll try to sneak away from International Shipping in a bit and compile a projection of costs associated with infantry training from research I did a while back concerning founding my own state. Long story.
Oh, and FREEBIRD! WOO!
<lighter>
"If I leave here tomorrow
Would you still remember me?
For I must be travelling on, now,
'Cause there's too many places I've got to see.
But, if I stayed here with you, girl,
Things just couldn't be the same.
'Cause I'm as free as a bird now,
And this bird you can not change.
Lord knows, I can't change.
Bye, bye, its been a sweet love.
Though this feeling I can't change.
But please don't take it badly,
'Cause Lord knows I'm to blame.
But, if I stayed here with you girl,
Things just couldn't be the same.
Cause I'm as free as a bird now,
And this bird you'll never change.
And this bird you can not change.
Lord knows, I can't change.
Lord help me, I can't change.
I can't chanayanayayayange!"
</lighter>
Oh, and FREEBIRD! WOO!
<lighter>
"If I leave here tomorrow
Would you still remember me?
For I must be travelling on, now,
'Cause there's too many places I've got to see.
But, if I stayed here with you, girl,
Things just couldn't be the same.
'Cause I'm as free as a bird now,
And this bird you can not change.
Lord knows, I can't change.
Bye, bye, its been a sweet love.
Though this feeling I can't change.
But please don't take it badly,
'Cause Lord knows I'm to blame.
But, if I stayed here with you girl,
Things just couldn't be the same.
Cause I'm as free as a bird now,
And this bird you'll never change.
And this bird you can not change.
Lord knows, I can't change.
Lord help me, I can't change.
I can't chanayanayayayange!"
</lighter>
Also it seems to me that like someone else has mentioned, VR would be a big deal in training, and although most likely not nearly as good as the real thing, in a cyberpunk world it is likely to be seen as "good enough".
hell, when you can feel the pain of getting shot, you may desensitize the victim of it. that is, if you also make sure that people get "treated" soon enough.
just remove their fear of dying and people can do all kinds of crazy things.
just remove their fear of dying and people can do all kinds of crazy things.
| QUOTE (TheOneRonin) |
| Whoa hoss...hold on there. My reply was directed at jmecha's post above. Read it...he basically says that there is no training...that a soldier enlists and ships out to his unit, and all he gets is OJT. In regards to your comments on training, I don't disagree. I did Basic+Mech Inf training in 15 weeks, so your training times are spot on. But I still think that training costs overall are higher than you think. Facilities, trainers, training equipment...hell, the Army has a whole command dedicated to training (TRADOC). Their salaries play a part. But with your 14 years to my 6, I will glady bow to your larger quantity of experience. |
Well, I may have jumped the gun there. I thought I had laid out a reasonable, somewhat detailed, if obviously abstracted analysis of training, and I thought you were claiming I'd pulled shit out of my ass.
I must have missed a part of your quote from jmecha.
To be honest, if you have less time, your memories and relevancy might be more accurate than mine. This stuff changes, and the stuff soldiers go through now is different than what I expirenced on several fundamental levels.
OJT does apply, AFTER IET, of course. The point that all these guys are getting paid the same wether or not they are at war or sitting on their asses... or training is valid. It misses the point that training isn't free. A drill on the trail, for example, isn't doing anything else.. he's just being a trainer, so obviously his paycheck is a 'training cost', no matter how you slice it. Of course,the more soldiers he trains the cheaper, per soldier, the cost, which was my point when people started tossing out six figure training costs. I worked with aviators for a while there, and THEIR training was worth maybe 100k, and I assure you that technical work requires more material than feild work.
| QUOTE (Spike) |
Well, I may have jumped the gun there. I thought I had laid out a reasonable, somewhat detailed, if obviously abstracted analysis of training, and I thought you were claiming I'd pulled shit out of my ass. |
I totally understand. I think the "Pvt Snuffy" part threw you for a loop. Both you and jmecha used it. I'm betting you saw that in my quote and thought I was hammering on you. No worries. Wasn't even danger-close.
| QUOTE |
| To be honest, if you have less time, your memories and relevancy might be more accurate than mine. This stuff changes, and the stuff soldiers go through now is different than what I expirenced on several fundamental levels. |
Actually, it's probably about equal for us both. I was at Benning back in 94/95, probaby not too long after you. We didn't have stress cards or that "no screaming" liberal bullshit that is in place today.
| QUOTE |
| OJT does apply, AFTER IET, of course. The point that all these guys are getting paid the same wether or not they are at war or sitting on their asses... or training is valid. It misses the point that training isn't free. A drill on the trail, for example, isn't doing anything else.. he's just being a trainer, so obviously his paycheck is a 'training cost', no matter how you slice it. Of course,the more soldiers he trains the cheaper, per soldier, the cost, which was my point when people started tossing out six figure training costs. I worked with aviators for a while there, and THEIR training was worth maybe 100k, and I assure you that technical work requires more material than feild work. |
Yup, I'm tracking with ya there.
This has been a fun thread.
A few notes, at high level. What kind of gear the "average" soldier carries in 2070 is probably meaningless; for that matter, you could say the same thing today. The "average" infantryman today carries some sort of firearm. The rest, isn't "average", but based on details. An earlier post describes the standard 9-man US Army squad. But, Marines use a different organization. And US troops in general will be much better-equppied and trained than similar troops in most other countries.
To come up with TO&E for a country in 2070, step back and consider a few factors:
* Mission. What's the Objective? What are the Threats? Is the army built to defend open terrain (lots of drones?), assault urban objectives (small forces heavy on commandos?), or provide a mandatory service option for conscripts that offers remedial education and disclipline for a society that has little of either?
* Culture. How does the public perceive the military (and the mission)? How casualty-averse is the public? We do a lot of things today that would have seemed lavish or in some cases silly to WWII soldiers, because we are so hideously casualty-averse. This can be a good or bad thing at times, I'm just pointing it out as an issue, not making judgement. It also ties into the next point...
* Budget. A lot of the argument in this thread has been over whether the military would pay for chrome vs. using long-life external gear and cheap drugs. That depends a lot on how much money the nation has available (GDP/taxes), how much of that it is willing to spend on individual troops (culture), and what they're intended to be used for (mission). WWII movies color a lot of people's minds with the impressions that total industrial war left on them. Meanwhile, active or former troops are arguing based on their own experiences, which are colored by the situation (high GDP, relatively small army vice industrial armies, very casualty averse public) that we face today.
So, what will a generic soldier carry? Well, technically speaking, there's no such thing. You could come close enough to "generic" for an Azzie border unit intended to server as cannon fodder, or a UCAS unit intended for expeditionary warfare, or a CAS QRF cavalry unit designed to race to the border, recon to find a weak spot, and counterattack into it without significant upper echelon support. Each will be funded and trained differently... and paid differently, too, and that part can't be left out. As several people have hinted here, soldiers that are well paid have a tendency to buy whatever they think will help them out. Ignoring Dragonskin for a minute, look at things like camelbacks; troops bought so many with their own money, that (to my understanding) they've pretty much been adopted as official canteen replacements. So, if you have an army where (like ours today) the privates are making $20K cash (and costing 2-3 times that in all) and sergeants are making over twice that... as long as they think it'll keep them alive, and it isn't strictly outlawed (eg, I don't see UCAS allowing spurs), they're going to spend some of their cash on their own upgrades... and the military may offer them discounts.
A few notes, at high level. What kind of gear the "average" soldier carries in 2070 is probably meaningless; for that matter, you could say the same thing today. The "average" infantryman today carries some sort of firearm. The rest, isn't "average", but based on details. An earlier post describes the standard 9-man US Army squad. But, Marines use a different organization. And US troops in general will be much better-equppied and trained than similar troops in most other countries.
To come up with TO&E for a country in 2070, step back and consider a few factors:
* Mission. What's the Objective? What are the Threats? Is the army built to defend open terrain (lots of drones?), assault urban objectives (small forces heavy on commandos?), or provide a mandatory service option for conscripts that offers remedial education and disclipline for a society that has little of either?
* Culture. How does the public perceive the military (and the mission)? How casualty-averse is the public? We do a lot of things today that would have seemed lavish or in some cases silly to WWII soldiers, because we are so hideously casualty-averse. This can be a good or bad thing at times, I'm just pointing it out as an issue, not making judgement. It also ties into the next point...
* Budget. A lot of the argument in this thread has been over whether the military would pay for chrome vs. using long-life external gear and cheap drugs. That depends a lot on how much money the nation has available (GDP/taxes), how much of that it is willing to spend on individual troops (culture), and what they're intended to be used for (mission). WWII movies color a lot of people's minds with the impressions that total industrial war left on them. Meanwhile, active or former troops are arguing based on their own experiences, which are colored by the situation (high GDP, relatively small army vice industrial armies, very casualty averse public) that we face today.
So, what will a generic soldier carry? Well, technically speaking, there's no such thing. You could come close enough to "generic" for an Azzie border unit intended to server as cannon fodder, or a UCAS unit intended for expeditionary warfare, or a CAS QRF cavalry unit designed to race to the border, recon to find a weak spot, and counterattack into it without significant upper echelon support. Each will be funded and trained differently... and paid differently, too, and that part can't be left out. As several people have hinted here, soldiers that are well paid have a tendency to buy whatever they think will help them out. Ignoring Dragonskin for a minute, look at things like camelbacks; troops bought so many with their own money, that (to my understanding) they've pretty much been adopted as official canteen replacements. So, if you have an army where (like ours today) the privates are making $20K cash (and costing 2-3 times that in all) and sergeants are making over twice that... as long as they think it'll keep them alive, and it isn't strictly outlawed (eg, I don't see UCAS allowing spurs), they're going to spend some of their cash on their own upgrades... and the military may offer them discounts.
Basic Training, AIT, and all that other happy horse shit does happen, I never meant to claim that it doesn't....but even Basic Training and AIT don't really cost that much more then soldiers stationed at thier Unit.
I was just trying to show that Skill Soft would be a waste of money, because a soldier's skills can be gained with time which is something soldiers have a whole hell lot of, unless there is a war at hand that is calling for freash bodies.
Mech training and Airborne Training is going to cost more then standard Infantry training, but that is only because the cost of maintaining and fueling the equipment used...but even then the Army would be flying and or driving thoose planes and tanks anyway because not using up your supplies means you get a budget cut every year because you obviously aren't using what was allotted to you the year before.
Take it easy on the get a clue and tossing out the WTFs....I've done my 20 between 2000 and 2005, now some of you may say that's only five years, but I assure it felt like 20.
I wasn't looking to piss anyone off, just trying to say that Skill Softs would be a waste of money on troops who are gonna have nothing but time to train with under experinced trainers.
I was just trying to show that Skill Soft would be a waste of money, because a soldier's skills can be gained with time which is something soldiers have a whole hell lot of, unless there is a war at hand that is calling for freash bodies.
Mech training and Airborne Training is going to cost more then standard Infantry training, but that is only because the cost of maintaining and fueling the equipment used...but even then the Army would be flying and or driving thoose planes and tanks anyway because not using up your supplies means you get a budget cut every year because you obviously aren't using what was allotted to you the year before.
Take it easy on the get a clue and tossing out the WTFs....I've done my 20 between 2000 and 2005, now some of you may say that's only five years, but I assure it felt like 20.
I wasn't looking to piss anyone off, just trying to say that Skill Softs would be a waste of money on troops who are gonna have nothing but time to train with under experinced trainers.
The only thing is, you're assuming that in a bottom-line is king cyberpunk world most organizations are going to allow their "soldiers" to do nothing but train even in peacetime as opposed to finding something to get thier monies worth out of them, like the Desert Wars for the corps, ect...
The use or sanction of cyberweapons, including spurs and implanted guns, would very much depend on how much the army values readiness and protection against the enemy over protection from their own troops. Sure, it is not uncommon to lock up weapons and ammo to minimize casualties in the event that a soldier snaps and decides to kill everyone on base and there are regulations governing who can carry a weapon where and when. But in a war zone, where danger of attack from The Enemy is greater is far than the danger of a random Private finding his wife getting boned by his Colonel in a supply and acting rashly, the additional combat readiness provided by a cybergun is extremely useful. An implanted weapon is always there, ready to be used. It cannot be lost or taken away. In the event that an enemy attacks a barracks during the night, sleeping soldiers will immediately be able to fight.
When combined with implanted armor, implanted water and nutrient reservoirs, and communications equipment, you have a soldier who can literally fight naked. Today, soldiers must spend precious minutes getting dressed and putting on heavy gear before they can be deployed. With cyberimplants, any unit can be deployed immediatly without wasting time doing things like putting on clothes (identification labels, flags, and insignias can be tattooed on to comply with treaty requirements).
I can certainly imagine the modification of certain cybersystems for more practical use, such as making a wide-blade spur that doubles as an entrenching tool.
The biggest problem with standard-issue skill softs is the inability for soldiers relying on them to use Edge on on those skill tests. It is often better to be lucky than it is to be good.
When combined with implanted armor, implanted water and nutrient reservoirs, and communications equipment, you have a soldier who can literally fight naked. Today, soldiers must spend precious minutes getting dressed and putting on heavy gear before they can be deployed. With cyberimplants, any unit can be deployed immediatly without wasting time doing things like putting on clothes (identification labels, flags, and insignias can be tattooed on to comply with treaty requirements).
I can certainly imagine the modification of certain cybersystems for more practical use, such as making a wide-blade spur that doubles as an entrenching tool.
The biggest problem with standard-issue skill softs is the inability for soldiers relying on them to use Edge on on those skill tests. It is often better to be lucky than it is to be good.
| QUOTE (Spike) |
| I worked with aviators for a while there, and THEIR training was worth maybe 100k, and I assure you that technical work requires more material than feild work. |
Aviators cost a lot more than 100K. For example, lets look at the final phase of flight training.
CH-47D is $6,793 per operating hour. Aircraft qualification and combat skills training is 154.4 flight hours. $1,048,800 per. In reality it isn't that high, as as it's a multi-place aircraft. "The total cost to train a student in the CH-47 flight school XXI program is $508,891.20"
Don't underestimate costs of ground training either:
Typical tracked vehicle costs about $25 per km driven. How many km does someone have to drive a Brad or M1 to be a good driver that you can count on under stress?
I was actually referring to the crew chiefs and other mechanical types. The Pilots are an entirely different subject.
Short update via published material.
Aztlan calls 50,000 men under military aegis, including army, navy, and so on, with about half of that being support persons ratehr than in the field with guns.
Aztechnology has about 150,000, probably in a similar split.
Which is, well, backwards from what I remembered.
Weird.
Aztlan calls 50,000 men under military aegis, including army, navy, and so on, with about half of that being support persons ratehr than in the field with guns.
Aztechnology has about 150,000, probably in a similar split.
Which is, well, backwards from what I remembered.
Weird.
I believe that during my time as a tanker the biggest expenses associated with training were the re-supply (fuel, ammo, repair/maintenance) of the vehicles. This led us to spend LOTs of time in simulators shooting at imaginary targets. I would imagine that the improvements in AR would make this training much more popular.
What's the cannon interpretation on how easy it is to learn physical skills through AR simulations?
What's the cannon interpretation on how easy it is to learn physical skills through AR simulations?
| QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition; page 320) |
| Tutorsofts: These virtual private tutors aid the user in learning a specific skill. The tutorsoft makes Instruction Tests with a dice pool equal to its rating x 2. Tutorsofts are available for all skills except Magic and Resonance skills. |
| QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition Errata 1.5; page 3) |
| Add the following paragraph: “To learn or improve a skill or skill group, the character must succeed in an Extended Intuition + skill Test, with a threshold equal to the new skill rating x 2 and an interval of 1 week (1 month for skill groups). A teacher can add bonus dice to this test (see Using Instruction, p. 123).� |
So considering that Tutor-softs can be bought up to ( Rating 5 ) I'd say they are rather useful and will be used instead of living trainers more often then not whenever possible.
And you don't have to feed/house tutorsofts like you do those pesky living instructors. Probably only the most technical skills or those requiring special expertise (i.e. spotter/sniper teams) would require living instructors, but even a lot of the initial training for those skills might be completed with an AR or VR tutor.
| QUOTE (TheOneRonin) |
| Maybe. I'm fairly certain that the UCAS retains much of the old USA's foreign policy, which means plenty of posts/bases in allied countries, and a significant amount of deployed or deployable personnel. And the UCAS's relationship with the CAS is not a hostile one. I see no reason for them to have more than a token force assigned to defense of their southern border. |
Not so I'm afraid. Way way back the US pulled every last one of their troops out of their overseas bases and back to the continental United States and closed them all down IIRC. Hell, they didn't even bother to keep Guam and they owned the whole place plus they sold the lease for Guantanamo Bay to Ares.
| QUOTE |
| And the UCAS's relationship with the CAS is not a hostile one. I see no reason for them to have more than a token force assigned to defense of their southern border. |
Depends. How was the whole Northern Virginia debacle from the novel Just Compensation eventually handled in canon? I know that its been mentioned in the sourcebooks a couple of times so they didn't just try to ignore it. That could of certainly made things along the border a bit more twitchy.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| So considering that Tutor-softs can be bought up to ( Rating 5 ) I'd say they are rather useful and will be used instead of living trainers more often then not whenever possible. |
While I agree that TutorSofts are great in concept, let's get back to the notion of "lowest bidder" and "designed by committee." Think of "Bradley, the Infantry Fighting Trainer."
While there will likely be a percentage of crappy TS, I actually expect a lot of the basics for each MOS would be addressable through TutorSofts. There will still need to be lots of field time to train muscle memory though, since full VR does squat for the muscles and while the brain may ignore cold, the body may still go into shock. But I'm kosher with TS giving basic proficiencies for relatively cheap.
I suppose one new MOS would be "Trainee", a person with a "vanilla" personality that meshes well with the masses, equipped with a simsense recorder, and sent through the best training sessions that can be recorded.
| QUOTE (kigmatzomat) |
| While there will likely be a percentage of crappy TS, I actually expect a lot of the basics for each MOS would be addressable through TutorSofts. There will still need to be lots of field time to train muscle memory though, since full VR does squat for the muscles and while the brain may ignore cold, the body may still go into shock. But I'm kosher with TS giving basic proficiencies for relatively cheap. |
actually, simsense recordings do make you move your muscles, or at least send impulses to them. otherwise, there wouldn't be any need for an RAS override.
so who knows, maybe simsense training does provide muscle memory.
as far as learning your physical limits, well, i'll allow as that might not be available from simsense (though you could certainly learn what it feels like to get shot, what it feels like to be freezing/frostbitten to the point of losing limbs, or even dying) but depending on the army, providing real experience may or may not be a high priority... (in fact, as was mentioned, it wouldn't suprise me if some armies used simsense to basically condition their troops minds to the point where they see death as not being significant, because they've "died" so often and come right back from it...)
Since governments are very weak in SR, I would think that they would have very little money and would be more concerned with militarized police forces for homeland guard duty and would have a few elite special forces for the overseas stealth work.
If any country needed to muster up a large militia in case of all out ground war, it would be cheaper to just conscript millions of yokels and plug them with skillwires. It would be the cheapest solution and it could be done in less time than basic training.
If any country needed to muster up a large militia in case of all out ground war, it would be cheaper to just conscript millions of yokels and plug them with skillwires. It would be the cheapest solution and it could be done in less time than basic training.
RAS override is less to keep your Simsense from controlling you (It can't do that ... that's what Skillwires are for!) and more to keep you from hurting yourself.
If, for example, you've decided to slot in teh latest California Hot, "Buffet Beach", you can kick back and enjoy a party on teh beach, with hula girls, great food, music, drinks, and so on. You can interact, they'll interact with you, and so on. If you don't have your RAS enabled, however, you'll get up to feed grapes to that pretty girl in your sim, but this could very well result in you jabbing your hand at an onrushing taxi. Even "Safe" in your own home, your shins are gonna take a beating and you may well go out a window or wander into the kitchen, aka, "Where lots of pointy things are" ... and you wouldn't even notice the puncture fun, thanks to being barefoot in the evening surf.
Much, MUCH better to keep your RAS off so that your actual body is just slumped in a comfy couch through the whole thing.
In contrast, if you're just slotting "Goth", where you can be morose and depressed in hopes of finding your inner artist, you can keep your RAS off, since you're not interacting with anything inside your head, you're just along for the Personafix ride. This lets you walk around the StufferShack, talking about how melons mark someone as a soulless consumer whore ... until your time's up and you have to buy a new hour of Goth, of course.
If, for example, you've decided to slot in teh latest California Hot, "Buffet Beach", you can kick back and enjoy a party on teh beach, with hula girls, great food, music, drinks, and so on. You can interact, they'll interact with you, and so on. If you don't have your RAS enabled, however, you'll get up to feed grapes to that pretty girl in your sim, but this could very well result in you jabbing your hand at an onrushing taxi. Even "Safe" in your own home, your shins are gonna take a beating and you may well go out a window or wander into the kitchen, aka, "Where lots of pointy things are" ... and you wouldn't even notice the puncture fun, thanks to being barefoot in the evening surf.
Much, MUCH better to keep your RAS off so that your actual body is just slumped in a comfy couch through the whole thing.
In contrast, if you're just slotting "Goth", where you can be morose and depressed in hopes of finding your inner artist, you can keep your RAS off, since you're not interacting with anything inside your head, you're just along for the Personafix ride. This lets you walk around the StufferShack, talking about how melons mark someone as a soulless consumer whore ... until your time's up and you have to buy a new hour of Goth, of course.
Nice comparison.
i'm confused what that has to do with my point...
my point is that when you move in simsense recordings, your meat also moves. therefore, it stands to reason that simsense training programs (ie tutorsofts) could very well give you muscle memory, contrary to what someone implied earlier (that tutorsofts could be used, but then you'd have to go out and train to develop muscle memory).
after all, if your muscles are indeed receiving impulses and making you move around, you're training them, aren't you? (not sure if RAS would have to be turned off or not. if it can't do it while turned off, it's still cheaper to put you in a rock climbing type harness and hang you a foot off the ground than it is to build an actual training facility for you to go through =P )
my point is that when you move in simsense recordings, your meat also moves. therefore, it stands to reason that simsense training programs (ie tutorsofts) could very well give you muscle memory, contrary to what someone implied earlier (that tutorsofts could be used, but then you'd have to go out and train to develop muscle memory).
after all, if your muscles are indeed receiving impulses and making you move around, you're training them, aren't you? (not sure if RAS would have to be turned off or not. if it can't do it while turned off, it's still cheaper to put you in a rock climbing type harness and hang you a foot off the ground than it is to build an actual training facility for you to go through =P )
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| i'm confused what that has to do with my point... my point is that when you move in simsense recordings, your meat also moves. therefore, it stands to reason that simsense training programs (ie tutorsofts) could very well give you muscle memory, contrary to what someone implied earlier (that tutorsofts could be used, but then you'd have to go out and train to develop muscle memory). after all, if your muscles are indeed receiving impulses and making you move around, you're training them, aren't you? (not sure if RAS would have to be turned off or not. if it can't do it while turned off, it's still cheaper to put you in a rock climbing type harness and hang you a foot off the ground than it is to build an actual training facility for you to go through =P ) |
Muscle memory wouldn't apply, since those tracks are cut out of typical entertainment sims. They don't want you slotting up the latest Neil the Orc Barbarian sim and start laying into your seatmate with your popcorn bucket, now do they? So, that all gets cut out in editing, to make the nice lil' experience that you enjoy.
Even if the track is left in, without Skillwires, there's nowhere for the track to be played in.
Think of it like surround sound.
If you put a DVD into a surround sound player, you get all kinds of cool effects.
If you put the same DVD into a normal DVD player, you get a non-surround track.
Assorted skillsofts are similar ... with no skillwires, there's nowhere for the "Kick your leg!" track to go, so, it never plays. You never get a tingle in your leg muscle from it wanting to start lashing out ... it never notices in the first place. The only thing that has an active muscle track is an Activesoft, but those, as we know, only work in Skillwires.
Now, maybe you were curious if you'd learn from Activesofts while you had Skillwires. I'd imagine not, since your body's on autopilot. It'd be like learning Ninjitsu from watching Kung Fu movies. You're passively watching your body do things, rather than learning by *doing*.
For soldiers, it gets worse. Yeah, maybe you have skillwires with Rifle 3 and Running 3, but that doesn't help you be cool under fire, how to improvise when you don't have the needed parts to repair a jam, or what your pal's trying to tell you with that hand signal. You never took the time to learn espirit de corps, nor did you take the time to build up your body through basic athletics, dicth digging, and marching. You're a guy with a "Shoot Gun" chip, not a soldier. HUGE difference.
| QUOTE (Wakshaani) |
| until your time's up and you have to buy a new hour of Goth, of course. |
When I buy an hour of goth, it's different.
Anyway, don't count skillwires out yet. Sure, you can only sot 2 skills at once (more, if you slot skills at a lower rating than your wires). But you can also keep more skills than that on your commlink, and switch them out as appropriate. Now I don't think they'd slot things like running or ditch digging. There are only 2 catagories of skills I think would be slotted.
Catagory 1: Mission or equipment specific skills. No need to train technician specialists, when every soldier who's stuff breaks slots the fixit-chip. No need to train soldiers on every weapon, when they need to fire the LMG, they slot gunnery, when it's AR time, put that in.
Catagory 2: Dangerous skills. By making sure that skills like demolitions, shootin folk, or other deadly or disruptive skills are slotted instead of learned, these skills never make it to the civilian market after their term of service is expired.
The discussion about how TutorSofts work brought up a question that I'm unclear about. In the core book, skill advancement is entirely abstracted: pay your karma (during down time) and get your skill. There's no discussion that I found about any rolls you might have to make to actually learn the skill. However, when I look up the Instruction skill the book says
| QUOTE |
| Teaching requires an Instruction+Charisma Test. For every 2 hits achieved in this test, the student receives an additional die for making the test to learn the skill. |
...but then they never mention what tests the student gets to use that die on.
Can someone please point me to the correct passage? Otherwise, TutorSofts and/or Instructors don't seem to have any purpose.
Can someone please point me to the correct passage? Otherwise, TutorSofts and/or Instructors don't seem to have any purpose.
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| Otherwise, TutorSofts and/or Instructors don't seem to have any purpose. |
That's pretty much the case.
I think a soldier is going to have a lot of things on the go at once - If he's manning an observation post, he's going to have to:
A) Be keeping a physical eye on the surrounding area (Perception)
B) Co-ordinating his drones who are going to be watching for other OPs so he can kill them, while also looking to accomplish the mission (Some knowledge skills, maybe a skill in the stealth group. I suspect that the drones are going to be running on autopilot, but it's not unreasonable for him to be able to jump in, in which case he's going to need another set of driving skills)
C) Keeping abreast of the intelligence feeds from himself and others so he doesn;t get ambushed and killed, and feeding his own data in (Probably a knowledge skill, tactics)
D) Manning his weapon systems - Including his personal weapon, his anti tank equipment, his anti aircraft and anti drone systems, as well as the weapon systems of possibly up to 10 drones (Two weapon skills and gunnery)
E) Manning the electronic warfare and electronic snooping gear that the OP is using to spy on the other team. While they'd no doubt try to bring in hackers from the rear areas to do it, but if they cannot due to the other teams jamming efforts, he has to do it with the assistance of agents no doubt.
F) Do all the above while remaining undercover, because as soon as someone spots him he's going to get hit by precision guided artillery.
And thats for that single task! Stealth and Perception at maximum levels are essential, as are a huge suite of technical and knowledge skills, before we even get onto the 4 gun skills.
While there are likely to be two guys working on at any given moment in an OP, it might be down to one as the training required makes it harder to get a guy in the field. I'm not to sure how you'd manage all those tasks with in game skills, but it seems to me that a soldier needs to know a lot of stuff, and 'shoot my gun' is right down the list. A 2070 war is going to be network enabled in all sorts of ways, I suspect it's quite reasonable to expect a a single squad of soldiers to be supported by dozens of drones ranging from recon drones, to steel lynx style things, agents and other weaponised systems.
To accommodate that sheer training load, I'd expect the training program would look more like what they do for officers today, ie 3-4 years of training before you become a junior officer in return for a compulsory service agreement that would be very long (7+ years)
However that single guy is highly effective, and could probably kill an entire platoon of meta humans without the same technology. He has access to 3-4 light machine guns just for starters! Totally excluding his recon capability and ability to call back for artillery support if he draws a bead on the other guys.
A) Be keeping a physical eye on the surrounding area (Perception)
B) Co-ordinating his drones who are going to be watching for other OPs so he can kill them, while also looking to accomplish the mission (Some knowledge skills, maybe a skill in the stealth group. I suspect that the drones are going to be running on autopilot, but it's not unreasonable for him to be able to jump in, in which case he's going to need another set of driving skills)
C) Keeping abreast of the intelligence feeds from himself and others so he doesn;t get ambushed and killed, and feeding his own data in (Probably a knowledge skill, tactics)
D) Manning his weapon systems - Including his personal weapon, his anti tank equipment, his anti aircraft and anti drone systems, as well as the weapon systems of possibly up to 10 drones (Two weapon skills and gunnery)
E) Manning the electronic warfare and electronic snooping gear that the OP is using to spy on the other team. While they'd no doubt try to bring in hackers from the rear areas to do it, but if they cannot due to the other teams jamming efforts, he has to do it with the assistance of agents no doubt.
F) Do all the above while remaining undercover, because as soon as someone spots him he's going to get hit by precision guided artillery.
And thats for that single task! Stealth and Perception at maximum levels are essential, as are a huge suite of technical and knowledge skills, before we even get onto the 4 gun skills.
While there are likely to be two guys working on at any given moment in an OP, it might be down to one as the training required makes it harder to get a guy in the field. I'm not to sure how you'd manage all those tasks with in game skills, but it seems to me that a soldier needs to know a lot of stuff, and 'shoot my gun' is right down the list. A 2070 war is going to be network enabled in all sorts of ways, I suspect it's quite reasonable to expect a a single squad of soldiers to be supported by dozens of drones ranging from recon drones, to steel lynx style things, agents and other weaponised systems.
To accommodate that sheer training load, I'd expect the training program would look more like what they do for officers today, ie 3-4 years of training before you become a junior officer in return for a compulsory service agreement that would be very long (7+ years)
However that single guy is highly effective, and could probably kill an entire platoon of meta humans without the same technology. He has access to 3-4 light machine guns just for starters! Totally excluding his recon capability and ability to call back for artillery support if he draws a bead on the other guys.
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| Can someone please point me to the correct passage? Otherwise, TutorSofts and/or Instructors don't seem to have any purpose. |
| QUOTE (Shadowrun Fourth Edition Errata 1.5; page 3) |
| Add the following paragraph: “To learn or improve a skill or skill group, the character must succeed in an Extended Intuition + skill Test, with a threshold equal to the new skill rating x 2 and an interval of 1 week (1 month for skill groups). A teacher can add bonus dice to this test (see Using Instruction, p. 123).� |
I swear to God I'm going to kick that errata's ass one day.
*Chuckles* At least it isn't the fragging FAQ. 
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| I think a soldier is going to have a lot of things on the go at once - If he's manning an observation post, he's going to have to: A) Be keeping a physical eye on the surrounding area (Perception) And thats for that single task! Stealth and Perception at maximum levels are essential, as are a huge suite of technical and knowledge skills, before we even get onto the 4 gun skills. |
How many Perception dice do you think he'd need? How much Stealth does he need? What is the threshold for those Tech and Knowledge skills?
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