In the shadow talk thoughout Spy Games, Frosty makes several comments on GW and Lofwyr about an upcomming dragon divide or issue. Is the whole survival of the fittest rearing its head again? I seem to be missing something going on here. Can anyone fill me in?

Dang, with that title I was hoping for a military-type dragon division.

Dragon Dragoons?

I figure it is either one of two things.

Lofwyr has gained a lot of power back since Crash 2.0 for saving Europe's matrix bacon. He may be vieing for his old position once more. So yeah just like survival.

The other idea I have is that the dragons are about to induct new greats and that those new Great Dragons could shift the balance of power.

The third outlier is mating season and hot hot lizard sex.

There's no love lost between the greats. Theres a history of bad blood but also a code of conduct that has been ignored on several occasions. It seems to be the only time a majority will join forces for a short term alliance. The big D stirred them on several occasions. Ghostwalker seems to have caused a serious ruckus.

Some hot Cloaca on Cloaca action! :/

Dragon air cav.

Maasaru attained GD status in the 6th world and if there was an induction ceremony, it was damn quiet.

Dragon WMDs.

...

Wait a moment, Dragons *ARE* WMDs! Just ask the people of Tehran.

...

Oops, too late.

My best bet would be War!, page 30-31.

On January 2073, the Great Dragon Sirrurg led an attack on an Aztechnology military base with a strong awakened and metahuman forces, killing about 5'000 soldiers. As the battle ended, Sirrurg used magic to kill every living people in the city, about 10'000 people more, with a single spell. Frosty links this to Great Dragons' ability to manipulate fate, but the fact that Sirrurg first dealt Aztechnology troops with more classical means make me suggest the final speel could have been powered with heavy blood magic.

Following these events, there were also rumors Hestaby wanted to deliver a speech to the United Nations condemning Sirrurg action. According to Frosty, again, this is big news because dragons normally never discuss draconic matters in front of metahumans. Her conclusion: "If Hestaby goes to the UN, it will be unprecedented. It could also create a deep division amongst the Great Dragons, between those that lean pro-metahuman and those are staunchly anti-metahuman."

First off, wait, War! was good for something?

Secondly, I thought "Pro-Metahuman" when it came to Dragons is the idea that you don't need to season the uppity worm-like life form in ketchup before eating it?

I remember reading somewhere (Corp Guide would be an obvious guess) about SK stocking up on liquid assets. Might be a red herring or related to something else, or maybe big L is topping up his wartime supplies...

I'm sure they mean BBQ sauce.

Oh boy, Great Dragons signlehandedly torching military bases, I love how this is a game about magic and tech where the magic is always superior. One more thing to ignore about that book I suppose.

Actually it wasn't singlehandedly, Sirrurg was with a lot of drakes, dracoforms, spirits, sapient critters, etc, etc, etc.
And considering the fact that a Great Dragon was hit once by an orbital laser AND SURVIVED, I don't see what is the problem of Dragons attacking military bases and surviving.

Or maybe beer - he's a German dragon, after all

@Shinobi: Alamais survived, but it's not like he shrugged off the blow and continued what he was doing. GDs are very much mortal if someone can land a blow, and they know it - which also means that if one of them decides to step openly into the fray, he will have planned for eventualities like air defence or a local wizard congress.

Ahem. Reptiles still have the requisite parts that us mammals are familiar with. It's not like watching birds do it (unless you're watching ducks, who are rather well endowed).

I guess Goblinization, the appearance of Dragons, the Great Ghost Dance, the complete balkanization of the world as we know it, the fact that a group without magic has always been screwed when fighting those with, etc. etc. etc. This has been a common theme across all editions, if you don't like it change it at your table.

Still I'd love to see ONCE the inhabitants of the 6th world show those comming over from the 4th to go bath themselves in fear induced digestive byproducts. Like a Great Dragon or Immortal Elf being struck by a Thor and NOT surviving it while having some bad ass veteran colonel (no, not Jack O'Neill, more like the General from Hulk) standing in front of the explosion, his arms folding, nodding and saying something like "this is how WE deal with fate, son".

Dunno but I prefer to stay away from the whole "we are the real players" thing those GD and IEs are running and pretend to say that this is none of my business.

The problem is, if they do it once, why would they stop? If the other greats push back and win, we just end up where we were before: tyranny of magic over tech. If they don't, then tech assumes the upper hand, wipes out all the Big Neutrals, and we're left with Cyberpunk 2020.

General "Thunderbolt" Ross? The Red Hulk?
And a GD being actually mortally hit by a Thorshot? That's a level of Tactical Geni- . . . CREEEEEED!

We already have a sort of tyranny. GDs and IEs are effectively untouchable as they tend to retaliate in a rather draconic fashion thus they are free to do whatever pleases them. The only thing barring them from ToWoDo is the fact that they have an even more uneasy time with one another. But there IS room for a powershift and we all know that a dramaturgical imperative could easily achieve that. Heck it wouldn't even attack the suspend of disbelief as this is much MORE believable than a bunch of maniac halfgods not willing to wipe out the vermin to have much more room for their own affairs.

Well, dragons acting draconian i can get . . the IE's though? O.o
When/how have they ever in the 6th World? o.O

It appears to me that for the most part, magic is able to perform some impressive feats of shock and awe. But so far we have not seen a primarily magical force maintain a sustained campaign against a entrenched force.

You mean besides the oppression in Tir Tairngire and the coup d'etat that vanquished Ireland from the maps to install a fey state?

So you're unhappy with the status quo and want someone to die in order to....maintain the status quo?

No, I'm not unhappy with the status quo. In fact, in all of humanities history, there were elites of some sort which tried to set themselves apart by any means possible. It doesn't matter if they are a monetary or ideological elite or biological like GD and IEs. I just pretend that they don't exist stay away from their affairs and mind my own business pretending that it is as world changing as theirs.

Back to the topic at hand, if we assume SIrrug is the situation that triggers the divide, with he and Hestaby as 'team captains' for Anti and Pro Metahumanity, respectively ... who joins which?

(For now, Lofwyr sits out. He ha stoo much to do, and will wind up coming out on whichever side looks to win, proving him the greatest dragon all along. Also, he gets a share of the defeated dragons' loot.)

I'd say the smaller/younger ones will team up with Hestaby while the older players will side with Sirrug.

Sure, Alamais survived, but like has been said, he was forced to stop. I think an equally valid example is Nachtmeister. He was shot by an orbital laser, and died. Although it was after gaining the upper hand in a direct battle with Lofwyr.

And then there is Firschwinge. She was reportedly destroyed in a nuclear expolsion (though no one can claim they are 100% sure)

Feuerschwinge was shot down by missles from jets over the sox. And survived.
She was then some years? later napalm bombed and we are not sure if she's dead.

There is also Aden that leveled Teeran alone when muslims began killing metahumans. Sure, hedid that and went away, before any retaliation could be brought to face him, but it just shows that Dragons, specially the Great Ones, are not to be messed lightly with.

Hmmm, I dunno. The idea of dragons duking it out over the fate of mankind just seems a bit...over the top

As far as the "high magic" plots go, I'm a hardcore matrix fan and thus would love to see some more techno-centric plots. However, plots about ancient munchkinmagic offer one undeniable advantage: Technology can be used by everyone and in a setting full of industrial espionage would easily be copied and reverse engineered, thus controlling the spread of a technology in the universe often leads to massive hand waving (like the supposedly unbreakable DRM on nanoforges). Magic on the other hand can easily be explained as "it's extremely powerful magic, only grade >20 Initiates stand any chance to use it without frying themselves".

Sirrurg - The Destroyer.

No actually that would be Aiden.

Aiden pulling their schtick when no one understood magic at all made asense, ghostwalker and sirrug doing it in the game "now" when magic is understood it's just a matter of force is turning the game more and more into magic run.

Ack, Aden, of course, sorry, my mistake x.x

Yes, Aden. Now, I don't have a problem with Ghostwalker going all Godzila in Aztlan-controled Denver. He showed up out of nowhere and possibly summoned a lot of bound spirits and spirits owing him favor or whatever...
I do have a problem with Aztlan and all the other players in Denver accepting like nothing happened.
I mean, just the fact that CAS took control over Aztlan territory it would mean war by the articles in the Denver Treaty...

They're still multiton beasts of immense physical and financial power with a long-term view that cannot be conceived by any metahuman (Even IEs) whatsoever.

Just thinking they have magic is sorely mistaking the potential for Dragons of all types, and Great Dragons especially!

WHat's this about Nightmaster being laser-shot while *beating* Lofwyr?

No writeup I've ever seen has said this.

All of them talk about how Nightmaster and Lofwyr threw down, with Lofwyr winning and Nightmaster falling fro the sky. Lofwyr's forces quickly cordoned off the area and nothing about what happened to the corpse (If he was, in fact, dead) has ever been mentioned.

Actually Sirrug can basically be described as hulk smash of the SR set, he's not noted for his financial acumen or tactical genius. Similarly ghostwalker pretty much went godzilla, then after the fact they sketched in backroom deals.

From what we've seen.

From what we've seen.

Anyhow, Sirrug is probably in his cave, wishing for the "Good Old Days" when the lesser races weren't so uppity. As for Ghostwalker, he woke up, found his brother dead, found a CITY where his land was, and then found his ancient enemy as a major part of that city. Is it any wonder he went Godzilla and took names?

Really? I would peg the high point for "magic run" with a major focus on the immortals as being in late 1st early 2nd ed when there was the Harlequin series, followed by the Insect spirit invasion, the Aztechnology sourcebook ect.

After that Shadowrun took a decidedly techy focus which it has maintained until now... Renraku Archology, Otaku, 2nd crash, AI's becoming a playable 'race' ect.

We might be seeing the pendulum swing in the other direction, though I'd suggest it first started to move in the Dawn of the Artifacts series, but what's wrong with that? Shadowrun has always been about tech and magic. In all honesty, if someone at CGL has a great idea for a plot line involving great dragons battling each other I'd say run with it. If nothing else it'll be an interesting shakeup and something different than yet another corp and/or mob war. I mean what else are they going to do on the techy side? Bring Deus back? No thanks.

I don't think they accepted it like nothing happened.. but the writers got a bit distracted with the transition to SR4 and its somewhat different style.

The way I see it is this: all of a sudden, a dragon pops out of an astral rift left behind by former UCAS president Dunkelzahn, then surprise-attacks the Aztlan section. Aztlan tries to scramble military support to Denver, but they have to pass through CAS and PCC territory to get there, and those two countries hate Aztlan. So Aztlan can't retaliate immediately, and this is when the politics gets going in earnest. Nadia Daviar operates as some sort of go-between towards the UCAS government, and Ghostwalker promises every signatory to Denver except Aztlan that they'll like how he runs Denver.
Before he got there, they all hated Denver: it was a bureaucratic nightmare, and insanely expensive to maintain their presence. Kind of like post-WWII Berlin if the Chinese and Israelis had also gotten a sector. After the original treaty of Denver, Aztlan had stabbed the NAN in the back, and they've always been at odds with the CAS. And Aztlan has basically subverted any treaty or international organization they've been involved with, so everyone dislikes them.
So when Aztlan comes crying to the rest of the Denver signatory countries saying Ghostwalker is mean to them, the rest just shrugged and said they had it coming.
Now Ghostwalker runs Denver, keeps the peace, and all the countries are cheaper off; they don't need quite as big an army in Denver, the bureaucracy moves faster. And if anything goes wrong, they just say "Hey, it's a Great Dragon, what can we do?" Politicians love a good excuse to hide behind.

So, to summarize: Ghostwalker beat in the door with brute force, but he stays because he's politically expedient for everyone except Aztlan, and everyone hates Aztlan anyway.

And Spy Games seems to indicate shit happening behind the curtains in Denver anyways.

The original treaty of Denver is built on a political situation when Aztlan was still part of the NAN. It was due for renegotiation anyway.

Having a Dragon evict them from the city certainly did that.

I recall some vague references suggesting it was up for renegotiation after X years anyway, but that Ghostwalker puts a whole new spin on those negotiations.