Full Version: Israel 2065
Rev, drop it. For the sake of all that is holy, please just drop it.
hermit, take your flames and ignorance elsewhere, I am trying to assist in a SR project. If anyone is the zealot here it is you and your insistance in flaming me for my efforts to create a plausible future Israel in SR terms. You have yet to add a single constructive comment. It has all been flaming me or telling me what to do like you are the forum police or something. What exactly is your problem? If you want to fight with me I'll meet you more than half way, but please take your whining ass somewhere else when I am trying to do something for the game.
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| I love the way in this paragraph all the governments are basically doing the same thing (kicking out people they hate for idiotic racist reasons) but when rory's group gets the kicking it is "anti semitic pogroms forcing them to flee" while when his group does the kicking it is "transferring hostile people to live with culturally, ethnically, and religiously similar peoples". |
I love the way you fail to see the irony. The Jews are kicked around without mercy. Over and over and yet are held to a special standard that no other people is held to. Other populations are exchanged, India Pakistan, Turkey Greece, etc... In game terms the NAN territories. The Jews are brutally eradicated from the entire middle east and yet do nothing to the hostile population squatting on their homeland. Tolerance has a limit. In game terms, I suggest this takes the form of removing them from the promised land and rebuilding the Jewish Temple. It is speculation SR style. If you have something to add feel free, if you are here to flame do us a favor and take it somewhere else.
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| Rev, drop it. For the sake of all that is holy, please just drop it. |
The crack smoker is back, with more helpful comments. Gee thanks.
Is it possible for you to post without hurling insults at people Rory?
Is it possible for you to post with anything productive to add to one of the threads I post in? What gives? Are you following me around just to police me?
Don't flatter yourself. I read every thread, and just get sick of your vitriolic posts, in which you constantly attack and insult people. You may possibly have had a case in the Sustaining Focus thread, but in this one it was most definitely you that started it, and despite several others reasonable responses, you are the one that is continuing the insults.
As to the topic at hand ...
Why do you think it is more interesting to set up Israel as the Shangri La of the Sixth World? Why is it that you portray every action by the Israelis in the best light, but depict every Islamic action as evil incarnate?
As to the topic at hand ...
Why do you think it is more interesting to set up Israel as the Shangri La of the Sixth World? Why is it that you portray every action by the Israelis in the best light, but depict every Islamic action as evil incarnate?
Fortune...Please don't.
Please. Let it go, man.
<begging>please!</begging>
Please. Let it go, man.
<begging>please!</begging>
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| Why do you think it is more interesting to set up Israel as the Shangri La of the Sixth World? |
What do you think the promised land should be? And how is Shangri La anything remotely like I suggest? A small community under siege.
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| Why is it that you portray every action by the Israelis in the best light, but depict every Islamic action as evil incarnate? |
Because in that situation every Islamic action that I have discussed is evil. The Israelis are guilty of crimes, individuals in any army under that much pressure will crack. It is the Islamic side that is organized crime though with their Jihad, suicide bombings, targeting kids, religious edicts(fatwahs) approving of mass murder, and brainwashing an entire generation of children.
Individual crime?
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelpale...rism127691.html
"After spraying the station wagen with bullets, the Palestinian terrorists walked up to the 4 terrified little girls and shot each one of them twice in the head, police said. The 8-month-old pregnant mother was shot in her belly at point blank range as she tried to cover her children"
Not hardly:
"In Gaza City, about 1,500 people joined an Islamic Jihad march celebrating the barbaric attack."
Those two murdering butchers are imortalized as heros in the lists of shahids. Many of the suicide bombers have streets and buildings named after them...for massacring women and children. Tell me where the evil is?
brainwashing kids:
http://www.isratv.com/video/filmpmwadsl.asx
Two policemen ripped to shreds by the people I cast in an evil light: http://www.betar.co.uk/articles/betar1067462481.php
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| Fortune...Please don't. Please. Let it go, man. <begging>please!</begging> |
This is a gay as it gets.
| QUOTE (Rory Blackhand) |
| This is a gay as it gets. |
Get back under the bridge, troll.
The flames, hate speak, and irrelevance stops here.
For the record, there is two sides to every story.
The Israelis were less than nice with their "land re-appropriation" during the 6-day war. They were flooded with Jews, such as my own grandfather, who were without homes or propery due to the holocaust, and ended up stealing a great deal from the native arab population. Israeli soldiers carry AK-47's or UZI's with them constantly; they have a nasty tendency of using them when they're not really necessary. Israelis also tend to have access to better schooling, jobs, etc.
The actions of the palestinians, however, make these gross infractions look petty in comparison. Children are brainwashed to kill every day; they are told to throw away their futures for the sake of a small amount of property. For every uneccessary killing an Israeli soldier commits, Palestinian suicide bombers or gunmen kill five, ten, or even twenty more. And, unlike the Israelis who take a "Hold at gunpoint and ask questions later" approach, PA-supported forces will kill anyone they see without a burkha or a knowledge of the Quran.
The Israelis were less than nice with their "land re-appropriation" during the 6-day war. They were flooded with Jews, such as my own grandfather, who were without homes or propery due to the holocaust, and ended up stealing a great deal from the native arab population. Israeli soldiers carry AK-47's or UZI's with them constantly; they have a nasty tendency of using them when they're not really necessary. Israelis also tend to have access to better schooling, jobs, etc.
The actions of the palestinians, however, make these gross infractions look petty in comparison. Children are brainwashed to kill every day; they are told to throw away their futures for the sake of a small amount of property. For every uneccessary killing an Israeli soldier commits, Palestinian suicide bombers or gunmen kill five, ten, or even twenty more. And, unlike the Israelis who take a "Hold at gunpoint and ask questions later" approach, PA-supported forces will kill anyone they see without a burkha or a knowledge of the Quran.
Frag me...
I'll try not to get involved in this debate, however I'd like to, but if I start it's never gonna end.
If any of you want to discuss this in private though I'd be glad to.
Looks like maybe I should rush back to France right after SoA is released... Some people will hate me here
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| Looks like maybe I should rush back to France right after SoA is released... Some people will hate me here |
All I can say is that it's called DARK FUTURE for a reason! The intent behind a DARK FUTURE setting is to portray things as having taken the WORST POSSIBLE TURN. Not how you'd like to see them. Not how you think it's realistic. How you think it could realistically end up worst is what people writing for SR should think of. And apart from the Germany book, it was more or less spot on.
And yes, this means Israel won't be the "promised land", where all Jews are happy. It's part of this whole Dark Future idea.
| QUOTE (Rory Blackhand) |
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That gets canceled, not to mention that there is current legislation to double that figure with a new genocide coordinator at the helm (Mazen). |
Abu Mazen ? A genocide coordinator ? Well... why ?
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| There is no doubt in my mind that if Palestinians had nukes they would use them without blinking an eye. |
How many Palestinians do you know ? What is the political sense behind nuking the very land the extremist part of the Palestinians wants to recover ?
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| That is simply not true. Aside from it being ridiculous to insist that the Israelis are dependent on the aid in the first place. In 1948 the Jews had no tanks, no artillery, and had a small air force of civilian planes. There was an arms embargo placed on them enforced by a British blockade. The Jordanian army on the other hand was well trained and led by a British officers and had no such restrictions. |
I take it you're talking about the Arab Legion ? Not exactly the biggest part of the Jordanian army, really.
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| The Egyptians had tanks, planes, artillery, anything they wanted as well. |
And didn't use them outside the Sinai and the Negev. Back at the time, the Israeli state as proclaimed by Ben Gurion and recognized by the UN was limited to some land in Galilee and the coastal plains down to Asqelon.
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| Also, in the 6 day war the Arabs enjoyed a 2 to 1 advantage in armor, 2 to 1 in air, and a huge imbalance of infantry. The Israelis in just 6 days penetrated in depth on three fronts, captured land three times it's size, and destroyed the myth that they could not defeat the Arabs without military assistance. |
Air supremacy in Sinai. Counter-strike on Ramat HaGolan, poorly defended by the Syrians who didn't want to take a more active role as soon as they saw they would fail to bypass the Kinneret and roll into Galilee.
As of SR, though, the bad coordination of the Arab states is no more, obviously.
Why ? Because the war lasted for *three* years in the Balkans. For the Muslims to sustain such a fight for so long, they had to be fragging well organized and numerous.
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You say Israelis are brutal? That is absurd to the extreme. Let's put this into perspective. The death rate from the current conflict is around 3500 on the Arab side. This of course takes into account the suicide bombers, the militants engaging in gun battles with IDF, collaborators being lynched, etc.. All casualties are counted in this figure. That leaves us with about 700 dead a year, which is a lot. Divide that between the roughly 4 million Arab Muslims living in the liberated territories and you get around 175 deaths per million. Detroit's population is just over 800k and had around 400 homicides last year. As you can see the city I live in, Detroit, is over twice deadly as living in the liberated territories of Israel. |
You're comparing the situation of occupied territories, where a population lives under military rule and where terrorism is being sponsored by some of the Palestinian authorities as well as what little organized groups there are - that also provide humanitarian assistance, thus earning support from the population, with the American city featuring the highest crime rate.
What's the relation between both situations that enables you to compare ?
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| They are that now. The destruction of the UN and the loss of Arab income from oil will be the greatest gift to Israel that has no measurable parallel. |
The UN is the very reason why Israel was recognized as a legitimate state in the first place. Regarding SR, the UN is still alive and kicking.
The loss of Arab income from oil will probably result in authorities losing their clout over the Islamists, what I hardly see as being good for Israel.
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You have zero understanding of the middle east if you don't recognize that Israel is the one catalyst that transcends all religious boundaries. |
Care to explain ? Is it possible to have different opinion ?
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Actually, just the opposite. Because of the US invasion Iraq has the greatest chance of becoming a lasting power. Once you let people live in freedom instead of fear they will choose that state of existence every time. |
Do you think you can hammer democracy inside a people's head, when this people has no democratic tradition ?
You who seem to know Middle-Eastern history and politics well, probably are aware two major types of powers emerge there:
Strong nationalist, un-democratic, secular dictatorships (Nasser's Egypt, Saddam Hussein's Iraq) and religious, potentially fundamentalist theocracies (Iran, Saudi Arabia).
Given the huge majority of Shi'ite population in Iraq, their hatred of the Americans and the West, and their religious ties to the current Iranian regime, I'd say chances are good that in a democratic Iraq such a regime will be born in the long run.
By the way, the Ayatollah running the Shi'ite fundie list got an overwhelming majority of votes after the elections in January.
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| How you think it could realistically end up worst is what people writing for SR should think of. |
Precisely what I meant. Except there are limits to how dark you want to/can depict a place. Choosing the "worst-case scenario is maybe not the best solution.
The worst-case scenario is mutual destruction.
This has to be a playable setting after all, plus you're tied by previous canon facts, whether you like them or not.
Plus depicting a possible genocidal policy performed by Israel in a desperate attempt to save its skin is maybe just not... gonna make the cut.
| QUOTE (SpasticTeapot) | ||
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Easy.
The Palestinian Authority is not Hamas.
And there are no bhurkas in the Palestinian territories. Veiled women who are under-considered, yes.
But it's not Afghanistan.
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| Except there are limits to how dark you want to/can depict a place. Choosing the "worst-case scenario is maybe not the best solution. The worst-case scenario is mutual destruction. This has to be a playable setting after all, plus you're tied by previous canon facts, whether you like them or not. |
Sure, but the destruction would be post-apoc anyway. I was thinking of society always taking the path that makes least people happy (you know, keeping Palestinians in work camps as, basically, slave labour to be competitive on the international market, non-Jews having to wear insignia of their faith stitched onto their clothes in a visible manner - I forgot his name, but some nutcase rightist in Israel once suggested that - that kind of stuff).
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| Plus depicting a possible genocidal policy performed by Israel in a desperate attempt to save its skin is maybe just not... gonna make the cut. |
No, but a nation that lost it's identity in a fit of genocidal rage and is living in constant fear of retaliation would, I think.
The only further point I would like to make on this topic is that yes, I am pro Arab, having lived around and known many Arabs I have always been sympathetic to there situation in the Middle East. But I do not agree with the violence going on from BOTH sides. This topic is a difficult one to have an opinion on without offending ether party. I have made this comment so everyone know's what my standing is on the matter (and can make there assumptions as to how biest I may be), and I hope we can all be adult about it and respect each other's opinions on it.
Israel is a very tricky situation with both sides laying claim to the land for as long as history cares to remember. It would be better to think in an 'ideal world' that both sides could live side by side. That is not the situation and I don't think that Rory or my self have the right to dictate who is right or wrong in this matter. I really do think that the situation will still be the same in 50, 100 and so on years time as nether side will back down and come to a final agreement as to who owns or has rights to the land in that region!
torz x
Israel is a very tricky situation with both sides laying claim to the land for as long as history cares to remember. It would be better to think in an 'ideal world' that both sides could live side by side. That is not the situation and I don't think that Rory or my self have the right to dictate who is right or wrong in this matter. I really do think that the situation will still be the same in 50, 100 and so on years time as nether side will back down and come to a final agreement as to who owns or has rights to the land in that region!
torz x
| QUOTE (hermit) | ||
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This wouldn't make the cut. Because this would spark a *huge* polemics and nobody really wants that, neither the developers, nor the writers, and probably not even the readers.
That's why an alternate netbook can be a good thing, I think.
*sigh*
I hate political correctness.
As you say, an alternate netbook, or maybe a netbook building o the SoA article, is in order, then. Luckily, we have a couple of Israeli writers here who just *may* do just that. ^_^
I hate political correctness.
As you say, an alternate netbook, or maybe a netbook building o the SoA article, is in order, then. Luckily, we have a couple of Israeli writers here who just *may* do just that. ^_^
I plan to, if people can agree to leave the polemics and the like at home. Contact me via PM.
Well, there're some who have their senses together and an ego that wouldn't make Lofwyr look like a btterfly in comparison, like Skarn Ka and Omer Joel. Don't despair because of one person's nasty attitude. 
Please.
Please.
Penta, dont take what Rory say's to hart it is plane to see he is a jumped up know it all. I for one like reeding what you have put!
torz x
*grin*
torz x
*grin*
| QUOTE (Skarn Ka @ Apr 12 2005, 07:53 AM) |
| Abu Mazen ? A genocide coordinator ? Well... why ? |
He's just swallawed the extreme right-wing propaganda line, hook and sinker.
Sure, Abu Mazen is no saint; he's a corrupt politician bent on filling his swiss bank accounts with foriegn aid money (just like Arafat did) ans well as with the fruits of "his" people's labour.
But "genocide coordinator"? No one in the middle east is really "worthy" of that title, though Saddam came pretty close and Nasralla tries to pretend he is; But Abu Mazen doesn't even "coordinate" HIS OWN people. The Hammas doesn't give a damn about him, as do many sub-factions of what was once the PLO.
Anyway, let's leave RL politics behind and build a good SR background, ok?
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| Well, there're some who have their senses together and an ego that wouldn't make Lofwyr look like a btterfly in comparison, like Skarn Ka and Omer Joel. |
Thanks
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| For the record, there is two sides to every story. |
Teapot, I think you mean well. Of course there is two sides to every story. You just need to retain perspective. No matter how much of my property you steal from me I would never ever kill your kids over it.
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| The Israelis were less than nice with their "land re-appropriation" during the 6-day war. They were flooded with Jews, such as my own grandfather, who were without homes or propery due to the holocaust, and ended up stealing a great deal from the native arab population. |
For example, let's examine this statement. You mention that Jews flooded into the west bank? You don't mention that the first so called "settlers" that rushed into the west bank in 1967 were the same Jews who had built those homes in the first place, but had been ethnically cleansed from the area at the hands of so called Jordanians (actually Palestinians). Many of these Jews evicted from their homes had an unbroken presence there in Judea and Sumeria for thousands of years before even the original Arab conquests of the region in the 7th century. These Jews returning to their homes are lumped into the despised term "settler", but you fail to mention them. And the settlements and outposts were not built on top of thriving Arab communities as you have us believe. They were built in the vast majority on unused land. And this all begs one driving question that I just can't come to terms with when someone uses this argument. If the Israelis were so harsh and stole so much from the Arabs why did the life expectancy of the Arabs in the liberated territories sky rocket to industrialized world standards directly after they fell under Israeli control? Why did literacy rates sky rocket? And why did thousands upon thousands of Arabs immigrate there after the war from the surrounding countries? Since it was so bad under the Israelis?
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| And, unlike the Israelis who take a "Hold at gunpoint and ask questions later" approach, PA-supported forces will kill anyone they see without a burkha or a knowledge of the Quran. |
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First, that is not true. Not everyone walking thru Palestinian neighborhoods will be killed. As I have shown earlier, my own neighborhoods are statistically more violent than yours. Not all Israelis pull guns on Arabs they see either. I don't blame any that do though. Protecting our kids can't be taken lightly. Nor do they wear burkhas. You mean well, but you are misinformed on some things it would appear.
First, that is not true. Not everyone walking thru Palestinian neighborhoods will be killed. As I have shown earlier, my own neighborhoods are statistically more violent than yours. Not all Israelis pull guns on Arabs they see either. I don't blame any that do though. Protecting our kids can't be taken lightly. Nor do they wear burkhas. You mean well, but you are misinformed on some things it would appear.
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| If any of you want to discuss this in private though I'd be glad to. |
I'll take you up on that challenge if you intend to only post history and current events and ignore SR speculation in this forum? It sounds like you are spoiling for a fight and need some education.
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| And yes, this means Israel won't be the "promised land", where all Jews are happy. It's part of this whole Dark Future idea. |
That is pretty racist of you to ignore the Dark Future Islamic people would suffer if they lost the mosque built on the Temple Mount. Or the dark future the Israelis would suffer from an endless Jihad waged on them with no chance of forgiveness. The promised land I proposed is for Jews only. And how do you explain the rosy lives of the elves frolicking in old growth forests free from the cares of starvation and the outside world?
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| Abu Mazen ? A genocide coordinator ? Well... why ? |
Start with his denial of the Holocaust and end with his refusal to dismantle the terrorist organizations that have genocide in their charters.
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| How many Palestinians do you know ? What is the political sense behind nuking the very land the extremist part of the Palestinians wants to recover ? |
I know quite a few. I see and speak with them on a daily basis. Dearborn is the largest population of Palestinians in the US, minutes from my home.
The sense is to kill Jews at any cost. A people willing to sacrifice it's children out of hatred is willing to stop at nothing. You call them the extremist element, but polls show that the majority of Palestinians approve of suicide bombings of all targets as long as they are Jews. Don't kid yourself.
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| I take it you're talking about the Arab Legion ? Not exactly the biggest part of the Jordanian army, really. |
Didn't have to be big with tanks and artillery used against Jewish population centers with no strategic value at all. Considering the Israelis had none to match it with.
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| As of SR, though, the bad coordination of the Arab states is no more, obviously. Why ? Because the war lasted for *three* years in the Balkans. For the Muslims to sustain such a fight for so long, they had to be fragging well organized and numerous. |
I totally disagree. The war lasted for much longer than that in Afghanistan, but the mujhadeen were fractured, bitter, and divided fighting a better armed opponent, probably why it lasted longer than it needed to. Wars can go on forever with little or no effective leadership. And without oil money propping those economies up there will be precious little for training and maintaining an effective army. Couldn't disagree with you more on this one.
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| You're comparing the situation of occupied territories, where a population lives under military rule and where terrorism is being sponsored by some of the Palestinian authorities as well as what little organized groups there are - that also provide humanitarian assistance, thus earning support from the population, with the American city featuring the highest crime rate. What's the relation between both situations that enables you to compare ? |
First, Jordan and Egypt "occupied" Palestinian territory, for 19 years, nobody said a word about "occupation" until Jews "liberated" the lands from occupation. You are doing your country a disservice by buying into the mislabelling propaganda process. Second, the terror groups get their money from my tax dollars being wasted on them. Third, it is not just the terror groups giving money to help people. You don't give enough credit to the Palestinians. They are apparently far more sophisticated than you imagine. The real impetus for the terror campaign is because the people desire it. Fourth, Detroit is not the murder capital, there are other cities in America with higher murder rates per capita and by volume.
The relationship of both is that my city suffers poverty, violence, crime, and blight. I am comparing the two to show that statistically speaking I have a greater chance of being shot and killed in Detroit than I do in what you label occupied territories.
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| The UN is the very reason why Israel was recognized as a legitimate state in the first place. Regarding SR, the UN is still alive and kicking. The loss of Arab income from oil will probably result in authorities losing their clout over the Islamists, what I hardly see as being good for Israel. |
Wrong. Lack of any authority when the British pulled out is the reason why Israel exists. The UN was not around even during the discussion of forming a Jewish Homeland. You must be referring to the advice given in the non binding UN 181 document? No mor than a suggestion. Hardly the basis to form a nation. The Jewish people formed the nation the UN did everything it could to stop it. Even today the UN is not in compliance with it's own charter and discriminates against just one nation on earth, Israel, by barring it from sitting on the Security council.
I haven't read anything where the UN is still alive in SR? Are you referring to the Zurich Orbital? Or have I missed it?
As to the loss of oil money. This may empower the religious, but it doesn't help them at all. It has a negative effect on Arab fighting ability. though an argument could be made that religious fanatics might finally place a useful leader in command of the forces they have instead of some family member wanting to have a name in history books.
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| Care to explain ? Is it possible to have different opinion ? |
I'll save this for private if you wish to debate me? It is critical in understanding Israel's enemies though.
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| Do you think you can hammer democracy inside a people's head, when this people has no democratic tradition ? |
Absolutely, I think the Japanese took to it quite well after we "hammered" them with two atomic bombs. Don't you agree?
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| Given the huge majority of Shi'ite population in Iraq, their hatred of the Americans and the West, and their religious ties to the current Iranian regime, I'd say chances are good that in a democratic Iraq such a regime will be born in the long run. |
How many Iraqis do you know? The ones I have spoken with are overwhelmingly happy the US brought democracy to Iraq. Don't believe all the media hype. I know at least the Kurds are openly grateful.
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It sounds like you are spoiling for a fight and need some education.
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No, and, well, you're being bold to think I do, but why not.
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Start with his denial of the Holocaust and end with his refusal to dismantle the terrorist organizations that have genocide in their charters.
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He doesn't deny the Holocaust, he's a revisionist, who used to pretend 1 million Jews, not 6, were killed. Read this PhD. thesis.
And while you can critizise such a view, even find it criminal, I fail to see where it makes him a "coordinator".
The PLO is far more complex than you seem to think.
This is awesome how people can rely on a legal view when it suits them and shrug it off when it doesn't.
Back in January, al-Aqsa Brigades tried to kill him in Gaza. Two of his bodyguards died. The Brigades are part of Fatah, in turn part of the PLO, but you'd be wrong to think he does control everyone in the 13 organizations that make the PLO.
While the Jenin al-Aqsa Brigades of Zakarya Zubeidi support him, those of Hebron are calling for his murder.
The Islamic Jihad (also part of the PLO, mind you) also calls for his murder.
I've worked in the Territories (mostly in Ramallah and Tulkarem, but I have colleagues and friends working in Nablus and the Hebron yishouvim), and at this level you see how divided the structure of Palestinian organizations is. This is played at a local level, and the control the central PLO has over these small cells is *inexistant*.
Face it, *everybody* on this planet supports Abu Mazen, except Israeli extreme-right-wingers and Islamist organizations such as Hamas or Hizbullah.
Even Europe and the US agree on this one.
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I know quite a few. I see and speak with them on a daily basis. Dearborn is the largest population of Palestinians in the US, minutes from my home.
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Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I meant Pals leaving
*in* the Territories. On the ground. Who live the day-to-day life.
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The sense is to kill Jews at any cost. A people willing to sacrifice it's children out of hatred is willing to stop at nothing.
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Alright, you went to Dearborn, asked your Pal friends and they told you that ? Or maybe you just "felt" it from them ?
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You call them the extremist element, but polls show that the majority of Palestinians approve of suicide bombings of all targets as long as they are Jews. Don't kid yourself.
[/QUOTE]
What polls ? Those organized by Shaas or United Torah Judaism ?
Of course any kind of popular support for suicide bombings can only be directed at Jews, who else ?
On the other hand, most Pals now consider their land to be the West Bank and Gaza, not Galil, Negev, Ramat HaSharon or whatever.
Maybe this was different 20 years ago, but as the population evolves from one that lived the Nakbaa (and fled the current Israeli territory) to one that only lived both Intifadas, the popular support for "destroying Israel" is pretty low.
Of course, if your poll is done the days after Operation Days of Wrath in Gaza, that cost 120 Pal lives in a few days and caused huge material damage... you can bet that the result will be not very nice.
Now make this poll after 3 months of truce, with some serious peace talks, and see the results in the Palestinian street.
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I totally disagree. The war lasted for much longer than that in Afghanistan, but the mujhadeen were fractured, bitter, and divided fighting a better armed opponent, probably why it lasted longer than it needed to. Wars can go on forever with little or no effective leadership. And without oil money propping those economies up there will be precious little for training and maintaining an effective army. Couldn't disagree with you more on this one.
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No comparison possible with Afghanistan.
Afghanistan was defended, on a familiar ground. No tanks, only RPGs and guerilla tactics.
In SR the Jihad is dubbed "Ottoman", meaning he's led by the Turks. Tell me, what oil money has Turkey ?
Moreover, by the 2030s most Arab countries will still have lots of oil money.
The canon fact is there, whether you like it or not. This is SR, not RL, and in the Euro-Wars the Jihad forces (at least in the Middle-East) were pretty well organized.
This is not a defensive war, this is a fucking onslaught throughout the Balkans, until the gates of Vienna, that needed to be sustained continuouly from the rear lines.
Not just some guerilla warfare in moutains and in caves like in Afghanistan.
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First, Jordan and Egypt "occupied" Palestinian territory, for 19 years, nobody said a word about "occupation" until Jews "liberated" the lands from occupation.
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There was no real Palestinian national movement back at the time. Sad to say, but the Israelis are the reason why the Palestinian national movement grew.
Back in '64 when the PLO was created and the '67 war hadn"t been fought yet, the PLO could *never* have been rooted in the West Bank. That's why they operated from outside, trying to overthrow the Jordanian regime, then in Lebanon until the Beirut days, then in Tunis...
[QUOTE]Third, it is not just the terror groups giving money to help people. You don't give enough credit to the Palestinians. They are apparently far more sophisticated than you imagine. The real impetus for the terror campaign is because the people desire it.
[/QUOTE]
This is an unfounded statement. Where is your justification for it ?
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Fourth, Detroit is not the murder capital, there are other cities in America with higher murder rates per capita and by volume.
The relationship of both is that my city suffers poverty, violence, crime, and blight. I am comparing the two to show that statistically speaking I have a greater chance of being shot and killed in Detroit than I do in what you label occupied territories.
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What are the population numbers ? Where are the roadblocks ? The administrative authorizations ? The searches ? The suicide bombers ?
You're comparing a US city with a disputed territory under military occupation. Really.
[QUOTE]The UN is the very reason why Israel was recognized as a legitimate state in the first place. Regarding SR, the UN is still alive and kicking.
The loss of Arab income from oil will probably result in authorities losing their clout over the Islamists, what I hardly see as being good for Israel.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
Wrong. Lack of any authority when the British pulled out is the reason why Israel exists. The UN was not around even during the discussion of forming a Jewish Homeland. You must be referring to the advice given in the non binding UN 181 document? No mor than a suggestion. Hardly the basis to form a nation. The Jewish people formed the nation the UN did everything it could to stop it.
[/QUOTE]
Re-read my post.
I'm not talking about the Balfour declaration or the Yishouv. I'm talking about Israel's independence in '48. Recognized by the UN. Supported by the UN. Certainly not by the Brits or *even* the US back then.
[QUOTE]
Even today the UN is not in compliance with it's own charter and discriminates against just one nation on earth, Israel, by barring it from sitting on the Security council.
[/QUOTE]
The sec council permanent members is made up of nuclear powers who won WW2. I fail to see the connection to Israel here.
[/QUOTE]
I haven't read anything where the UN is still alive in SR? Are you referring to the Zurich Orbital? Or have I missed it?
[QUOTE]
The UN. Many references in many books, especially SoE (Switzerland chapter).
[QUOTE] Care to explain ? Is it possible to have different opinion ?
I'll save this for private if you wish to debate me? It is critical in understanding Israel's enemies though.
[/QUOTE]
Why does it have to be private ?
Well, I'll see if I can really afford to waste my time this way...
[QUOTE] Do you think you can hammer democracy inside a people's head, when this people has no democratic tradition ?
Absolutely, I think the Japanese took to it quite well after we "hammered" them with two atomic bombs. Don't you agree?
[/QUOTE]
No. So you think Japanese and Arabs are the same kind of people, same traditions, same society ?
[QUOTE]
How many Iraqis do you know? The ones I have spoken with are overwhelmingly happy the US brought democracy to Iraq. Don't believe all the media hype.
[/QUOTE]
You talked to American Iraqis who don't live there ? Or did you talk to people who live there ? Shi'ites or Sunnis ?
[QUOTE]
I know at least the Kurds are openly grateful.
[/QUOTE]
True. 15, 20 percent of the population that hopes to become autonomous and above anything else not have to deal with Baghdad anymore.
Very representative of the average Iraqi.
It sounds like you are spoiling for a fight and need some education.
[/QUOTE]
No, and, well, you're being bold to think I do, but why not.
[QUOTE]
Start with his denial of the Holocaust and end with his refusal to dismantle the terrorist organizations that have genocide in their charters.
[/QUOTE]
He doesn't deny the Holocaust, he's a revisionist, who used to pretend 1 million Jews, not 6, were killed. Read this PhD. thesis.
And while you can critizise such a view, even find it criminal, I fail to see where it makes him a "coordinator".
The PLO is far more complex than you seem to think.
This is awesome how people can rely on a legal view when it suits them and shrug it off when it doesn't.
Back in January, al-Aqsa Brigades tried to kill him in Gaza. Two of his bodyguards died. The Brigades are part of Fatah, in turn part of the PLO, but you'd be wrong to think he does control everyone in the 13 organizations that make the PLO.
While the Jenin al-Aqsa Brigades of Zakarya Zubeidi support him, those of Hebron are calling for his murder.
The Islamic Jihad (also part of the PLO, mind you) also calls for his murder.
I've worked in the Territories (mostly in Ramallah and Tulkarem, but I have colleagues and friends working in Nablus and the Hebron yishouvim), and at this level you see how divided the structure of Palestinian organizations is. This is played at a local level, and the control the central PLO has over these small cells is *inexistant*.
Face it, *everybody* on this planet supports Abu Mazen, except Israeli extreme-right-wingers and Islamist organizations such as Hamas or Hizbullah.
Even Europe and the US agree on this one.
[QUOTE]
I know quite a few. I see and speak with them on a daily basis. Dearborn is the largest population of Palestinians in the US, minutes from my home.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I meant Pals leaving
*in* the Territories. On the ground. Who live the day-to-day life.
[QUOTE]
The sense is to kill Jews at any cost. A people willing to sacrifice it's children out of hatred is willing to stop at nothing.
[/QUOTE]
Alright, you went to Dearborn, asked your Pal friends and they told you that ? Or maybe you just "felt" it from them ?
[QUOTE]
You call them the extremist element, but polls show that the majority of Palestinians approve of suicide bombings of all targets as long as they are Jews. Don't kid yourself.
[/QUOTE]
What polls ? Those organized by Shaas or United Torah Judaism ?
Of course any kind of popular support for suicide bombings can only be directed at Jews, who else ?
On the other hand, most Pals now consider their land to be the West Bank and Gaza, not Galil, Negev, Ramat HaSharon or whatever.
Maybe this was different 20 years ago, but as the population evolves from one that lived the Nakbaa (and fled the current Israeli territory) to one that only lived both Intifadas, the popular support for "destroying Israel" is pretty low.
Of course, if your poll is done the days after Operation Days of Wrath in Gaza, that cost 120 Pal lives in a few days and caused huge material damage... you can bet that the result will be not very nice.
Now make this poll after 3 months of truce, with some serious peace talks, and see the results in the Palestinian street.
[QUOTE]
I totally disagree. The war lasted for much longer than that in Afghanistan, but the mujhadeen were fractured, bitter, and divided fighting a better armed opponent, probably why it lasted longer than it needed to. Wars can go on forever with little or no effective leadership. And without oil money propping those economies up there will be precious little for training and maintaining an effective army. Couldn't disagree with you more on this one.
[/QUOTE]
No comparison possible with Afghanistan.
Afghanistan was defended, on a familiar ground. No tanks, only RPGs and guerilla tactics.
In SR the Jihad is dubbed "Ottoman", meaning he's led by the Turks. Tell me, what oil money has Turkey ?
Moreover, by the 2030s most Arab countries will still have lots of oil money.
The canon fact is there, whether you like it or not. This is SR, not RL, and in the Euro-Wars the Jihad forces (at least in the Middle-East) were pretty well organized.
This is not a defensive war, this is a fucking onslaught throughout the Balkans, until the gates of Vienna, that needed to be sustained continuouly from the rear lines.
Not just some guerilla warfare in moutains and in caves like in Afghanistan.
[QUOTE]
First, Jordan and Egypt "occupied" Palestinian territory, for 19 years, nobody said a word about "occupation" until Jews "liberated" the lands from occupation.
[/QUOTE]
There was no real Palestinian national movement back at the time. Sad to say, but the Israelis are the reason why the Palestinian national movement grew.
Back in '64 when the PLO was created and the '67 war hadn"t been fought yet, the PLO could *never* have been rooted in the West Bank. That's why they operated from outside, trying to overthrow the Jordanian regime, then in Lebanon until the Beirut days, then in Tunis...
[QUOTE]Third, it is not just the terror groups giving money to help people. You don't give enough credit to the Palestinians. They are apparently far more sophisticated than you imagine. The real impetus for the terror campaign is because the people desire it.
[/QUOTE]
This is an unfounded statement. Where is your justification for it ?
[QUOTE]
Fourth, Detroit is not the murder capital, there are other cities in America with higher murder rates per capita and by volume.
The relationship of both is that my city suffers poverty, violence, crime, and blight. I am comparing the two to show that statistically speaking I have a greater chance of being shot and killed in Detroit than I do in what you label occupied territories.
[/QUOTE ]
What are the population numbers ? Where are the roadblocks ? The administrative authorizations ? The searches ? The suicide bombers ?
You're comparing a US city with a disputed territory under military occupation. Really.
[QUOTE]The UN is the very reason why Israel was recognized as a legitimate state in the first place. Regarding SR, the UN is still alive and kicking.
The loss of Arab income from oil will probably result in authorities losing their clout over the Islamists, what I hardly see as being good for Israel.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
Wrong. Lack of any authority when the British pulled out is the reason why Israel exists. The UN was not around even during the discussion of forming a Jewish Homeland. You must be referring to the advice given in the non binding UN 181 document? No mor than a suggestion. Hardly the basis to form a nation. The Jewish people formed the nation the UN did everything it could to stop it.
[/QUOTE]
Re-read my post.
I'm not talking about the Balfour declaration or the Yishouv. I'm talking about Israel's independence in '48. Recognized by the UN. Supported by the UN. Certainly not by the Brits or *even* the US back then.
[QUOTE]
Even today the UN is not in compliance with it's own charter and discriminates against just one nation on earth, Israel, by barring it from sitting on the Security council.
[/QUOTE]
The sec council permanent members is made up of nuclear powers who won WW2. I fail to see the connection to Israel here.
[/QUOTE]
I haven't read anything where the UN is still alive in SR? Are you referring to the Zurich Orbital? Or have I missed it?
[QUOTE]
The UN. Many references in many books, especially SoE (Switzerland chapter).
[QUOTE] Care to explain ? Is it possible to have different opinion ?
I'll save this for private if you wish to debate me? It is critical in understanding Israel's enemies though.
[/QUOTE]
Why does it have to be private ?
Well, I'll see if I can really afford to waste my time this way...
[QUOTE] Do you think you can hammer democracy inside a people's head, when this people has no democratic tradition ?
Absolutely, I think the Japanese took to it quite well after we "hammered" them with two atomic bombs. Don't you agree?
[/QUOTE]
No. So you think Japanese and Arabs are the same kind of people, same traditions, same society ?
[QUOTE]
How many Iraqis do you know? The ones I have spoken with are overwhelmingly happy the US brought democracy to Iraq. Don't believe all the media hype.
[/QUOTE]
You talked to American Iraqis who don't live there ? Or did you talk to people who live there ? Shi'ites or Sunnis ?
[QUOTE]
I know at least the Kurds are openly grateful.
[/QUOTE]
True. 15, 20 percent of the population that hopes to become autonomous and above anything else not have to deal with Baghdad anymore.
Very representative of the average Iraqi.
| QUOTE (Rory Blackhand) |
| And how do you explain the rosy lives of the elves frolicking in old growth forests free from the cares of starvation and the outside world? |
Check up on your current SR history a bit. It's not like things are running smooth and perfect (or ever really have) in the Tirs.
| QUOTE |
| That is pretty racist of you to ignore the Dark Future Islamic people would suffer if they lost the mosque built on the Temple Mount. Or the dark future the Israelis would suffer from an endless Jihad waged on them with no chance of forgiveness. The promised land I proposed is for Jews only. And how do you explain the rosy lives of the elves frolicking in old growth forests free from the cares of starvation and the outside world? |
.... racist?
1. Arabs - Muslims in general - suffered a damn lot. Lybia was nuked out of existence. Teheran (a city of 20 Million) was razed by Aden, killing about a third of the Iranian populace! Istambul was lost to their forces (and Islam in general) and is now under the rule of a worldly government. The desert wars take place on Arab soil. But the loss of the Temple Mount mosque will cause suffering that surpasses that. RIGHT.
2. I was always under the assumption Israel WAS under constant threat of the perpetual Jihad that was the AfA and now is NIJ (note the name, New Islamic Jihad).
3. I was pointing out that Israel would not be a land of shiny happy Jews, as you made it out to be.
4. READ THE DAMN TIR BOOKS. Tir na nOg is a racist, fascist nightmare thinly disguised by a Lord of the Rings like fantasy sharade. And it has lots of internaln opposition (Dublin resistance, unseelie court, ect). Tir Taingire had less hooks like that, but recent developments, like the Rielles' uprising, also make it look like it's not all rosy frolicking elves living in the lands of elf happyness.
And for the record, Master Shake, noone appreciates your style. Keep your ego a bit lower, and try to write posts without insulting people, if you want us to even take into consideration your posts.
| QUOTE |
| How many Iraqis do you know? The ones I have spoken with are overwhelmingly happy the US brought democracy to Iraq. Don't believe all the media hype. I know at least the Kurds are openly grateful. |
Kurds aren't Iraqis; they aim for an independent nation, and have been practically independent since 1991 (at least, that's their states political goal; I guess most individual Kurds would settle for a Switzerland or Yugoslavia model). Yes, they were appreciative of the US invasion. The remaining 80% are disillusioned to hostile. Don't believe all the media hype. I know a lot of Sunni are openly hostile.
| QUOTE | ||
Absolutely, I think the Japanese took to it quite well after we "hammered" them with two atomic bombs. Don't you agree? |
I don't. They accepted democracy because they had a democratic experiment before - the so-called 'Taisho Democracy' in the 1920s that was a lot like Weimar, and ended like Weimar too in the 1930s economic upheaval. Japan could go BACK to democracy because it was NOT something foreign imposed to them by an occupier. Also, siding with the Us was seen as less bad than siding with the Soviets.
You cannot compare Iraq and Japan.
And for the record, no Japanese I know would just shrug off the US nuking Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and say "hey, but they meant well".
| QUOTE |
| I totally disagree. The war lasted for much longer than that in Afghanistan, but the mujhadeen were fractured, bitter, and divided fighting a better armed opponent, probably why it lasted longer than it needed to. Wars can go on forever with little or no effective leadership. And without oil money propping those economies up there will be precious little for training and maintaining an effective army. Couldn't disagree with you more on this one. |
The USSR was already declining when it invaded Afghanistan. It went there unprepared. Also, their equipment, and especially coordination are way over rated in the West. They had a lack of spare parts, for one. They had terrible logistics. And the Mujahideen had the US bahind them, who helped out with financing their training camps, providing them with all kinds of intelligence, state of the art weaponry not otherwise available (especially stingers realy hurt the Soviets, as they took away their air superiority) and even the occasional special forces commando. I don't see why the AfA should have that.
And North Koprea has no oil, it has no income whatesoever except from what little it can make by out sourcing work from china, selling cheap produce made in it's slave labour camps, and what little China graces them with in terms of economical aid. yet, they can maintain an effective, well-trained army (and maintain a nuclear weapons program).
A state can always afford a decent army, it just may end up being on the expense of it's general citizenry.
| QUOTE |
| I know quite a few. I see and speak with them on a daily basis. Dearborn is the largest population of Palestinians in the US, minutes from my home. |
I grew up in a quarter where Turkish was the dominant language. Does that make me an expert of Turk internal politics? Hardly.
Guys, seriously. Could we kncok the political debate on the head or take it to PM's/e-mail otherwise all that's going to happen is that one of the moderators is going to lock the thread. Thanks.
| QUOTE |
| The desert wars take place on Arab soil. But the loss of the Temple Mount mosque will cause suffering that surpasses that. RIGHT. |
Right. Perpetual war with no chance of forgiveness will do that. I am also at a disadvantage, because I do not have that book.
| QUOTE |
| 3. I was pointing out that Israel would not be a land of shiny happy Jews, as you made it out to be. |
That is a misinterpretation of what I said. I posted a rough framework and was immediately attacked. The quality of Jewish life is open for discussion. The land itself, I suggest is magical and bountiful, in keeping with the promised land aspect of Israel.
There could be plenty of strife inside Israeli politics. There could be any number of factions bickering for control of the Temple Mount and or what exactly to do with it. There could be liberals wanting to demilitarize and give away part of Israel's land to appease the jihadis. Right wingers wanting to expand the nation's borders and or calling for attacks on Arab nations in an eye for an eye revenge. Etc...
| QUOTE |
| And for the record, Master Shake, noone appreciates your style. Keep your ego a bit lower, and try to write posts without insulting people, if you want us to even take into consideration your posts. |
Odd an egoist like you wants to give advice, but refuse to follow your own doctrine by calling me names. Kind of odd, don't you agree, Meatwad, cartoon boy?
| QUOTE |
| Kurds aren't Iraqis; they aim for an independent nation, and have been practically independent since 1991 (at least, that's their states political goal; I guess most individual Kurds would settle for a Switzerland or Yugoslavia model). Yes, they were appreciative of the US invasion. The remaining 80% are disillusioned to hostile. Don't believe all the media hype. I know a lot of Sunni are openly hostile. |
Kurds are Iraqis! You need to stay up on your current events if you are going to try and sound like you know something. And the remaining percentage are exuberant to hostile. Quite narrow thinking to say every Iraqi except the Kurds is angry. You obviously don't know any to make a foolish statement like that.
| QUOTE |
| They accepted democracy because they had a democratic experiment before |
BS. They accepted democracy because we forced them to. Now that they have had a taste of freedom they will not go back.
| QUOTE |
You cannot compare Iraq and Japan. |
Yes I can. It is racist of you to think the Iraqis are so different.
| QUOTE |
| And North Koprea has no oil, it has no income whatesoever except from what little it can make by out sourcing work from china, selling cheap produce made in it's slave labour camps, and what little China graces them with in terms of economical aid. yet, they can maintain an effective, well-trained army (and maintain a nuclear weapons program). |
And that is why they are starving their kids to death.
| QUOTE |
| Kurds are Iraqis! You need to stay up on your current events if you are going to try and sound like you know something. And the remaining percentage are exuberant to hostile. Quite narrow thinking to say every Iraqi except the Kurds is angry. You obviously don't know any to make a foolish statement like that. |
I said SUNNI. Sunni make up about as much as 25% of Iraq's population. Shiites make up some 60%, the rest are Kurds and other assorted minorities (Turkmens, christians, ect).
Since when have Kurds stopped calling for wide autonomy, renounced that, and all sworn an oath to give up the idea of a Kurdistan they have seen as their right ever since the divvying up of the ottoman empire after WW1? Please provide me with a link to a news site, or something.
| QUOTE |
| BS. They accepted democracy because we forced them to. Now that they have had a taste of freedom they will not go back. [...] Yes I can [compare Iraq and Japan]. It is racist of you to think the Iraqis are so different. |
Their cultural background is as different as it can be, yes. As I pointed out above (and supported with a link), Japan WAS A DEMOCRACY FOR 20 YEARS before the fascists took over, so there were parties, convinced democrats that would work with the US in building a democracy, and a populace that didn't reject the whole idea as a foreign concept forced upon them by an agressor who came uninvited (Sunnis) or a power of no trustworthyness who had let them down, leading to the worst massacre in the ME in 80 years (Shiites).
You cannot ignore a region's specific history. Comparing Japan to Iraq is just not valid.
| QUOTE |
| Odd an egoist like you wants to give advice, but refuse to follow your own doctrine by calling me names. Kind of odd, don't you agree, Meatwad, cartoon boy? |
Asking you to behave is egoist? Whoa.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
"They make a desolation and call it peace."
[Edit]I was going to say more, but I think this will suffice as both a comment upon the argument in this thread, and the likely future of the ME in Shadowrun.
"They make a desolation and call it peace."
[Edit]I was going to say more, but I think this will suffice as both a comment upon the argument in this thread, and the likely future of the ME in Shadowrun.
hermit, I appreciate your wanting to argue regional politics. It is very interesting. You are welcome to cling to the anti US myth that you can't bring peace/democracy to a people by force. This just isn't so. Overwhelming force has brought peace and stability to many nations. It is just an insult to Iraqis to say that they can't grasp democracy just because they have never been blessed with it. The obstacle is not the US, but Islam, at any rate. If you remove religion you will see that people are pretty much the same the world over. We love our kids and want to be left alone to enjoy life. I am in full agreement that the British created more harm than any one country by playing self serving politics with the lives of the residents of the region. The Kurds deserve a country of their own, but the fact is that many are Iraqis, one is in a top position trying to make things work in a difficult time. Badgering and second guessing is fruitless now, let's move forward, create results, and try to improve everyone's lives for the better of us all.
As to Japan, the US controlled ALL aspects of Japanese life after the war. The Japanese had democracy literally forced on them from without. I think they have taken to it like ducks to water. So will the Iraqis if you give it a chance. We still have troops in Japan. It takes time and commitment. Much as anti US forces at work here wish it to fail.
Can we stick to Israel 2070 now that you are no longer trying to dictate how I should post in an open forum? A brief list of points from me.
1) develop the Promised Land aspect of Israel. I suggest making the land magical like in Ireland. Land of milk and honey.
2) address waiting for the Messiah in religious Israel, along with interesting things like numerology, and other aspects
3) focus on Israel's high tech advantage and world class recognition in the field of science
4) develop the elite quality of Israel's defensive soldiery to reflect the 600 to 1 disparity in hostile populations. Utilize heavy cyber, bioware, and magic to highlight this, in my opinion
5) describe militarization as an every day and casual lifestyle along with the under siege mentality
6) highlight Israeli traditional tolerance with Islamic traditional intolerance by accepting meta humans and magic on the one side and pogroms on the other
7) develop a sr style dystopic history to account for the large hostile Arab population that existed in Israel, my suggestion is that they were transferred to Jordan because the factual original intent of severing the area of Jordan from the Jewish Homeland was to create a reserve for displaced local Arabs, nor is it shocking or politically incorrect to suggest it in light of the common practice in solving many other similar conflicts.
Everything is open for debate. Hopefully it is closed for personal attacks.
As to Japan, the US controlled ALL aspects of Japanese life after the war. The Japanese had democracy literally forced on them from without. I think they have taken to it like ducks to water. So will the Iraqis if you give it a chance. We still have troops in Japan. It takes time and commitment. Much as anti US forces at work here wish it to fail.
Can we stick to Israel 2070 now that you are no longer trying to dictate how I should post in an open forum? A brief list of points from me.
1) develop the Promised Land aspect of Israel. I suggest making the land magical like in Ireland. Land of milk and honey.
2) address waiting for the Messiah in religious Israel, along with interesting things like numerology, and other aspects
3) focus on Israel's high tech advantage and world class recognition in the field of science
4) develop the elite quality of Israel's defensive soldiery to reflect the 600 to 1 disparity in hostile populations. Utilize heavy cyber, bioware, and magic to highlight this, in my opinion
5) describe militarization as an every day and casual lifestyle along with the under siege mentality
6) highlight Israeli traditional tolerance with Islamic traditional intolerance by accepting meta humans and magic on the one side and pogroms on the other
7) develop a sr style dystopic history to account for the large hostile Arab population that existed in Israel, my suggestion is that they were transferred to Jordan because the factual original intent of severing the area of Jordan from the Jewish Homeland was to create a reserve for displaced local Arabs, nor is it shocking or politically incorrect to suggest it in light of the common practice in solving many other similar conflicts.
Everything is open for debate. Hopefully it is closed for personal attacks.
| QUOTE |
| "They make a desolation and call it peace." |
This is just as viable in SR terms as anything else. Somehow in other wars launched nuclear weapons did not reach their targets. Who is to say they didn't make it to the ground in Israel? Perhaps the entire region is a post apocalyptic radioactive wasteland because the radical islamists finally got their hands on enough weaponry to implement Hitler's "final solution" for the Jews?
| QUOTE |
| Overwhelming force has brought peace and stability to many nations. It is just an insult to Iraqis to say that they can't grasp democracy just because they have never been blessed with it. |
Never said they weren't able to grasp it, I'm saying they will not want it if the advocates of democracy behave like Saddam did (only that they're invaders, on top of that).
| QUOTE |
| The obstacle is not the US, but Islam, at any rate. If you remove religion you will see that people are pretty much the same the world over. |
Not that I disagree in principle, but why do you single out Islam as the problem here? It's not like fundamentalist christianity, for instance, isn't causing much suffering too (and has a hell of a record).
| QUOTE |
| I am in full agreement that the British created more harm than any one country by playing self serving politics with the lives of the residents of the region. |
The US did the same, but I guess you're unable to see that.
| QUOTE |
| As to Japan, the US controlled ALL aspects of Japanese life after the war. The Japanese had democracy literally forced on them from without. I think they have taken to it like ducks to water. So will the Iraqis if you give it a chance. We still have troops in Japan. It takes time and commitment. Much as anti US forces at work here wish it to fail. |
They did not. they organised things in the beginning, but let the Japanese do most of the rebuilding themselves, political structures, economy, you name it. Thatw as the beauty and wisdom of the US' post-WW2 rebuilding plan. They US back then did not loot the country bare of it's ressources (not that Japan would be teeming with ressources to begin with), it did not steal factories the peole rebuilt over and over again (like the soviets did), and hence, it gained an ally.
Noen of this is done in Iraq, because the current administration is short sighted and greedy (and so is a considerable part of their costituency).
Now, back on topic.
| QUOTE |
| 1) develop the Promised Land aspect of Israel. I suggest making the land magical like in Ireland. Land of milk and honey. |
Oh, please no. Two Tirs are enough already. Besides, I'd give the Israelis here first say in how they sant to portray THEIR homeland (they, not you, live there and should have a good idea of the ins and outs of Israeli society, much better than either of us). Locvals writing about their homeland usually means somewhat sensible sourcebooks (with the exception of the Germany SB, of xcourse; I have no idea what the devs were smoking back then, but it must've been some pretty heavy shit).
Their views may not conform with yours. Nonetheless, they know the feel of the nation, and you don't. Neither do I. So, let's let them handle it primarily, shall we?
| QUOTE |
| 2) address waiting for the Messiah in religious Israel, along with interesting things like numerology, and other aspects |
Now that makes sense, and would surely be a fun opportunity for all kinds of fake prophets (insect shaman posing as messiah, that kinda thing).
| QUOTE |
| 3) focus on Israel's high tech advantage and world class recognition in the field of science |
Israel is under intense pressure in SR. No more US to back them up, Europe neither willing nor able to jump in, no other allies in sight. I'd guess they'd do anything for an edge, and if that meant selling out to corps, they'd possibly do it. Hey, finally, those enslaved Palestinians can be put to use as slave labour in some corp factiories, in exchange for joint ventures with the likes of Ares and the Japanocorps (I bet Aden would back Israel too, if only to piss off Loffy).
| QUOTE |
| 4) develop the elite quality of Israel's defensive soldiery to reflect the 600 to 1 disparity in hostile populations. Utilize heavy cyber, bioware, and magic to highlight this, in my opinion |
Far better: Do what Israel is doing already: automatise forces. Use drones and robots galore. Arabs may have 20 grunts for each Israeli soldier, but I bet five Steel Lynxes and one Israeli Rigger in an advanced drone carrier tank will dispose of them very easily. Cutting edge tech, cutting edge drones, but not too much cyber and bioware. Soldiers are just too valuable to use on teh front lines. Use soldiers for spec ops, command and control, and as parts of elite shock forces, possibly wearing those powered armours.
| QUOTE |
| 5) describe militarization as an every day and casual lifestyle along with the under siege mentality |
Casual life style and siege mentality don't go really well together.
| QUOTE |
| 6) highlight Israeli traditional tolerance with Islamic traditional intolerance by accepting meta humans and magic on the one side and pogroms on the other |
I'd rather listen to what the Israelis here have to say about this. It seems Israel has it's share of small-minded bigots too, just like any other nation. And if their parent society is (believed to be) under siege, such elements often gain massive support. Just look at the US. I
| QUOTE |
| 7) develop a sr style dystopic history to account for the large hostile Arab population that existed in Israel, my suggestion is that they were transferred to Jordan because the factual original intent of severing the area of Jordan from the Jewish Homeland was to create a reserve for displaced local Arabs, nor is it shocking or politically incorrect to suggest it in light of the common practice in solving many other similar conflicts. |
My suggestion is that they form the underclass, rightless work slaves who pay the price for Israel's edge over the Arabs. Gaza and parts of the West Bank could be turned into giant, anarchic camps where these people are kept (Escape from LA comes to mind).
But before we're gonna discuss SR's Israel in rgeat depth, I'd really like to hear soem of the loacls' thoughts about this.
| QUOTE |
| Not that I disagree in principle, but why do you single out Islam as the problem here? It's not like fundamentalist christianity, for instance, isn't causing much suffering too (and has a hell of a record). |
Because Islam is the problem here. Why else would I say it. I have nothing against any religion, but I call a spade a spade. Islam is lagging behind the rest of the world in it's views. It needs to modernize as Christianity did.
| QUOTE |
| The US did the same, but I guess you're unable to see that. |
In the Middle East post WWI? What are you talking about. Better yet, let's not turn this into a bash America thing, ok? We are not talking about America. America did not have control of any of the mandate areas that established new countries in the ME. Why are you dragging the US thru the mud? It may be popular where you live, but I am not interested in hearing any BS. It is my opinion that US policy has been the only sane policy in the region.
| QUOTE |
| Noen of this is done in Iraq, because the current administration is short sighted and greedy (and so is a considerable part of their costituency). Now, back on topic. |
You don't have a clue what is done in Iraq, that much is obvious. Nor do you have an understanding of post WWII Japan but who cares? But yeah, let's stay on topic. Your venom for all things Bush is leaking thru your hatred muzzle.
| QUOTE |
| Their views may not conform with yours. Nonetheless, they know the feel of the nation, and you don't. Neither do I. So, let's let them handle it primarily, shall we? |
No. let's not. I don't have to go to outerspace or the antarctic to make a suggestion on how it should be played in SR. Stop trying to crowd me out. I have just as much right as anyone else in suggesting ideas. This is your main problem, you don't like me so you want me gone. It ain't happening. Sometimes you can stick your nose too close to a painting to see what color it is. One guy says it's red the other guy says no it's blue, sometimes what is required is a distant view of the thing to understand just what it is. Don't even try that tact. Work with me or leave me alone. I have ideas and they will be posted if I feel like it. Want to collaborate without dissenting opinion? Form your own forum full of cronies and don't invite me. I play SR and I have input that is valid and reasonable. Live with it.
| QUOTE |
| Now that makes sense, and would surely be a fun opportunity for all kinds of fake prophets (insect shaman posing as messiah, that kinda thing). |
I'm not opposed to the idea of a fake Messiah, a powerful free spirit (player? trickster?) What Jew wouldn't give karma freely to the Messiah?
| QUOTE |
| Israel is under intense pressure in SR. No more US to back them up, Europe neither willing nor able to jump in, no other allies in sight. I'd guess they'd do anything for an edge, and if that meant selling out to corps, they'd possibly do it. Hey, finally, those enslaved Palestinians can be put to use as slave labour in some corp factiories, in exchange for joint ventures with the likes of Ares and the Japanocorps (I bet Aden would back Israel too, if only to piss off Loffy). |
I have already put that into perspective. Losing 2% of your income will not hurt you at all. Losing the US is nothing. I don't see them selling out to the corps though. There are not enough incentive for the corps to want to hold Israel from the jihadis. A much darker future would be the corps are in charge and have allowed the jihadis to complete the genocide they have desired. The remnants of Jews are scattered in isolated bands only holding out due to the acceptance of magic users and metas in their ranks. What enslaved Palestinians are you referring to anyway? A large part of the problem is due to allowing too much freedom to the Palestinians. This is how a whole culture extolling death and war has arisen from the Palestinians who are in control of the majority of their lands for most of the years they have been liberated from Jordanian control. Aden would not back Israel if it used slave labor. The Israelis are very liberal, they would never enslave another population considering 2 thousand years of persecution and pogroms. Bad idea, totally out of character.
| QUOTE |
| Far better: Do what Israel is doing already: automatise forces. Use drones and robots galore. Arabs may have 20 grunts for each Israeli soldier, but I bet five Steel Lynxes and one Israeli Rigger in an advanced drone carrier tank will dispose of them very easily. Cutting edge tech, cutting edge drones, but not too much cyber and bioware. Soldiers are just too valuable to use on teh front lines. Use soldiers for spec ops, command and control, and as parts of elite shock forces, possibly wearing those powered armours. |
This is the single best suggestion you have made. It is an awesome concept that I accept whole heartedly. Why can't we stick to this sort of collaboration? It opposes my view of cyber and bio being common, but makes good sense. Picture Moshe Dyan with his eye patch though and you see my point about crusty old war veterans walking around with half their bodies replaced with cyber limbs from the countless battles and warfare they have seen. New Israeli youths gladly getting cheap government subsidized mods to improve their chances of survival. Fatalistic attitudes. Stoic resolve to defend Israel. This is my picture of Israel, but the combat drone rigger idea is awesome.
| QUOTE |
| Casual life style and siege mentality don't go really well together. |
Right!!!!! Which makes present Israel so unique! People do get on with their lives. They are under constant threat of violence and infiltration, but manage to go to the park, go shopping, go to discos....and be blown to shreds for it when the suiciders are successful in striking terror.
| QUOTE |
| I'd rather listen to what the Israelis here have to say about this. It seems Israel has it's share of small-minded bigots too, just like any other nation. And if their parent society is (believed to be) under siege, such elements often gain massive support. Just look at the US. |
You can't keep your nasty remarks about the US out of it huh? You think Israelis are intolerant? Compare Israel with Palestinians, israel allows gay marriage, gays are routinely murdered in the Pal areas and flee to Israel for their lives. Women are equal, protected, and hold the highest positions of Israeli society, honor killings in Pal controlled territory is common, women are second class citizens in practice, even thought they BS the world otherwise, all religion is tolerated in Israel, only Islam is allowed in Pal areas, a circumcised man could be killed as a spy with no trial, the Pal police routinely execute people with no trial, targeted killings by the IDF come after long debate and soul searching, etc... I could go on, but I hope you get the idea. Judaism is a tolerant non evanglical religion, Islam tolerates nothing but Islam. That being said, I am saying in general and by policy, Israelis are ultra tolerant surrounded by ultra intolerant enemies. Even our Israeli experts must agree to this.
| QUOTE |
| My suggestion is that they form the underclass, rightless work slaves who pay the price for Israel's edge over the Arabs. Gaza and parts of the West Bank could be turned into giant, anarchic camps where these people are kept (Escape from LA comes to mind). |
I respect your idea about slaves and work camps. I just feel that from surviving camps of their own by the Germans and the British on Cypruss I feel this is way out of character for Israelis. They have more of a desire to live in peace, in the promised land, of course, than any desire to impose on other peoples. It is totally out of character.
I keep missing something here, where in "canon" does it state that Israel has lost US/UCAS support?
I'm not sure it does? I am at a disadvantage when it comes to what is already written about Israel. I think it is an assumption that since America fractures it won't be involved in much politics and giving aid.
The whole point here though is we are suggesting ideas for Israel in 2070. It is all speculation. In order to make it somewhat believable and make sense we are discussing various aspects of Israeli society, history, and current events that may be relevant to this project.
For myself, I am just responding to the assumption that Israel loses US money, which is only 2% of it's income. I mentioned earlier that oil nations will lose much more when cheap solar energy provided by the Japanese becomes a fact of life.
EDIT
Making the disparity of the Israeli "haves" versus the Arab "have nots" ever more dark and SR genre conforming.
The whole point here though is we are suggesting ideas for Israel in 2070. It is all speculation. In order to make it somewhat believable and make sense we are discussing various aspects of Israeli society, history, and current events that may be relevant to this project.
For myself, I am just responding to the assumption that Israel loses US money, which is only 2% of it's income. I mentioned earlier that oil nations will lose much more when cheap solar energy provided by the Japanese becomes a fact of life.
EDIT
Making the disparity of the Israeli "haves" versus the Arab "have nots" ever more dark and SR genre conforming.
| QUOTE |
Because Islam is the problem here. Why else would I say it. I have nothing against any religion, but I call a spade a spade. Islam is lagging behind the rest of the world in it's views. It needs to modernize as Christianity did. |
You mean, modernised like Jack Chick and those loons blowing up clinics in the US? Or like the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda?
Religion is easily corrupted, but singling out one faith and declaring another squeaky clean is just ridiculous.
| QUOTE |
| You don't have a clue what is done in Iraq, that much is obvious. Nor do you have an understanding of post WWII Japan but who cares? But yeah, let's stay on topic. Your venom for all things Bush is leaking thru your hatred muzzle. |
Insulting again? Really, if you cannot reply with something more founded than "you'Re stupid, because I am right", just don't reply.
| QUOTE |
| Stop trying to crowd me out. I have just as much right as anyone else in suggesting ideas. This is your main problem, you don't like me so you want me gone. |
.... gru? I suggested WE (that includes me, if your English is lacking) step back and wait for the locals to say their thing. I didn't say YOU. I will step back too, mind you!
| QUOTE |
| I'm not opposed to the idea of a fake Messiah, a powerful free spirit (player? trickster?) What Jew wouldn't give karma freely to the Messiah? |
Yeap. I could see a couple of these emerging, and some sort of ministry of religious affairs trying to figure out if that messiah is the real deal or just another fake.
| QUOTE |
| Losing the US is nothing. |
And who's gonna back Israel then? At the very least, the lack of the Great Satan would encourage extremist Arabs to take on the little Satan now. Also, I bet the NAN received heavy funding from Gulf Arab sources. Sure, it's not like Israel would instantaneously combust if the Us do, but it'd be a huge blow.
| QUOTE |
| A much darker future would be the corps are in charge and have allowed the jihadis to complete the genocide they have desired. |
And why the hell should they do that? I mean, what's in for them? The only corp really invested in the ME is SK. Besides, that breaks canon, so it's out anyway.
| QUOTE |
| What enslaved Palestinians are you referring to anyway? A large part of the problem is due to allowing too much freedom to the Palestinians. |
Yeah, they should've gassed them all or put them in camps with nice signs saying "work liberates" in Hebrew.
Anyway, I was hinting towards Israel having herded Palestinians into three or four huge, city-sized camps, where they're kept , adn occasionally, the more privileged ones are left out for a bit of slave labour (which means a meal, so it's quite the sought for occupation). Think Warsaw ghetto.
| QUOTE |
| Aden would not back Israel if it used slave labor. |
Why? Aden is an asshole towards humans even by dragon standards. He's no Hestaby or Dunkelzahn, he's not even Lofwyr (who, albeint in a very authoritarian do-what-I-say-or-else type of way, wants humanity to survive the upcoming scourge). Aden could care less if Israel used slave labour, so long as it'd hurt Loffy and his Arab pals.
| QUOTE |
| You can't keep your nasty remarks about the US out of it huh? You think Israelis are intolerant? Compare Israel with Palestinians, israel allows gay marriage, gays are routinely murdered in the Pal areas and flee to Israel for their lives |
AHEM. I said Israel has it's bigot asshole quota too, like ANY NATION. Like how russian Immigrants are treated. Like how sephardic jews are still second-class citizens. Not all is well in Israel. I'm not saying it's worse than Germany, France, Italy, or Switzerland (propably a lot more tolerant than Italy and Switzuerland), but it's not free of racism, intolerance and smallmindedness either.
But, since you wanna bring up gay marriage ... which country seeks a constitutional amendment to ban it again?
| QUOTE |
| a circumcised man could be killed as a spy with no trial |
Ah ... ummm ... they'd have to shoot each other then too for being spies all the time. Not that they don't, but pulling pants down isn't nescessarily a good way to tell a Jew from a Muslim.
| QUOTE |
| Judaism is a tolerant non evanglical religion, Islam tolerates nothing but Islam. |
It's true Judaism is non-evangelic, but that doesn't mean they have to be tolerant, just that they're not demanded to bother others to convert to their faith. And I could deliver a long rant about Dhimmi and how tolerance is relative, but in general, I agree with you, the branch of Islam practiced in most of the Arab world isn't tolerant of anything, including other muslim denominations.
| QUOTE (hermit) |
| Also, I bet the NAN received heavy funding from Gulf Arab sources. Sure, it's not like Israel would instantaneously combust if the US do, but it'd be a huge blow. |
Of what I remember from Target: Wastelands when the US broke apart and became the UCAS they defaulted on all of their national debt, including things like T-Bills. And since places like Saudi had so much cash invested in the US economy, they lost mind boggling amounts of capital when it all went up in smoke.
I don't think there'd be that much change in the balance of power though. Israel would still have their domestic arms industry as well as both their conventional forces and nuclear deterant as an ace in the hole. With the US gone I'd say that any restraining influence had been lifted except for not being so violent that they bring the whole region down on them again - AFAIK after the Alliance for Allah split apart they all went back to being seperate countires but are now re-joining together under the NIJ banner.
The Israeli economy is going to go right down the toilet though. No more loans or loan guarentees, nada direct aid and cash and you can forget about military transfers or aid - people like Ares and IWS aren't known for their charity. Attracting investment to a country in that kind of situation is going to take some special offers and seriously good fast talking IMO. I could see the armed forces eating up more and more of the GDP as the years go by, putting the squeeze on other sections of government spending.
| QUOTE |
| You mean, modernised like Jack Chick and those loons blowing up clinics in the US? Or like the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda? |
No, I don't mean extremists like Jim Jones or David Koresh either. I mean like mainstream Chrisianity has proven that it can work well with democracy and humane principles of conduct and tolerance. Main stream Islam can not. You know exactly what I meant.
| QUOTE |
| Religion is easily corrupted, but singling out one faith and declaring another squeaky clean is just ridiculous. |
I never declared one "squeaky clean", that is you placing words in my mouth and pushing the fringe. I do not know another religion in control of any nation that espouses killing, murder, suicide, and submission of other religions as mainstream allowable rhetoric. Do you? hence my point. Years ago Christianity was the same hundreds of years ago, but it has modernized where Islam has not.
| QUOTE |
| if you cannot reply with something more founded than "you'Re stupid, because I am right", just don't reply. |
Stay on topic, leave the US bashing out of it and I will. I'm not interested in your political statements that have nothing to add to the project.
| QUOTE |
| I suggested WE (that includes me, if your English is lacking) step back and wait for the locals to say their thing. I didn't say YOU. I will step back too, mind you! |
I am in constant contact with Israelis. I have already heard hundreds of opinions. I don't live there but I can tell you what products are on sale at the local market in a dozen Israeli communities on any given day if I so desired to ask these type of mundane questions of my associates. I am involved with hasbara, it is my passion.
| QUOTE |
| Yeap. I could see a couple of these emerging, and some sort of ministry of religious affairs trying to figure out if that messiah is the real deal or just another fake. |
Well, lacking a deeper understanding of the Torah, maybe they are representing themselves as angels? Heralds? or something along this nature. I don't like the idea of multiple Messiahs running around with a cabal of mystics trying to debunk which is the real one. I had more envisioned a single powerful free spirit with monsterously large spells to perform miracles and such, possibly unique spells to fit the part. I am at a disadvantage though on religion.
| QUOTE |
| And who's gonna back Israel then? |
No nation backs Israel now. What are you asking? Tell me when the last American forces fought any of Israel's enemies along side Israel in a war? The Arabs stood together. The world shrugged it's colective shoulders and said good luck Israel. Sucks to be you, but don't win or we will step in.
| QUOTE |
| At the very least, the lack of the Great Satan would encourage extremist Arabs to take on the little Satan now. |
I'm fine with this suggestion. But the reason they fail is they lack oil funds and the Israelis are high tech giants. What is it 23 nobel winners with 5 or 6 million citizens vs 6 nobel winners and 2.5 billion Arabs. It helps keep perspective when you look at the numbers and how industrious the Israelis are. What was it? More than one-fifth of the most promising innovation and technology companies in Europe are Israeli, according to Red Herring technology magazine's top 100 rating the other day. One fifth.
| QUOTE |
| Sure, it's not like Israel would instantaneously combust if the Us do, but it'd be a huge blow. |
As I have said, 2% is not a huge blow to anyone's income. Why do you insist it would be?
| QUOTE |
| And why the hell should they do that? I mean, what's in for them? |
Well, 2.5 billion customers?
| QUOTE |
| Yeah, they should've gassed them all or put them in camps with nice signs saying "work liberates" in Hebrew. |
Or saved countless lives by taking charge of misappropriated funds, educational text books, policing duties, administration work, and outlawing hate speech, etc...
| QUOTE |
| Anyway, I was hinting towards Israel having herded Palestinians into three or four huge, city-sized camps, where they're kept , adn occasionally, the more privileged ones are left out for a bit of slave labour (which means a meal, so it's quite the sought for occupation). Think Warsaw ghetto. |
I am thinking Warsaw ghetto, which is exactly why the Jews would never do that to others. It goes completly against the grain.
| QUOTE |
| Aden could care less if Israel used slave labour, so long as it'd hurt Loffy and his Arab pals. |
Well the only line I read was he destroyed Tehran because of their pogroms against meta humans. I assumed from that he was a good guy.
| QUOTE |
| Like how russian Immigrants are treated. Like how sephardic jews are still second-class citizens. |
It is true. The darker skinned Jews do seem to be cast as laborers, but this is not as bad as you make it seem. Not nearly as bad as in the US where I live for example.
| QUOTE |
| But, since you wanna bring up gay marriage ... which country seeks a constitutional amendment to ban it again? |
More US bashing. What is your problem? Did an American steal your boyfriend?
| QUOTE |
| the branch of Islam practiced in most of the Arab world isn't tolerant of anything, including other muslim denominations. |
If you recognize the truth of this why are you playing games, asking me why I state the obvious when I say it is so?
| QUOTE |
| The Israeli economy is going to go right down the toilet though. No more loans or loan guarentees, nada direct aid and cash and you can forget about military transfers or aid |
I've already destroyed this myth. The Israeli economy produces around 100 bilion a year. The 2 billion they receive in aid and research grants iis not significant. Sharing technology is a two way street though. The Israelis are highly advanced.
| QUOTE |
| Attracting investment to a country in that kind of situation is going to take some special offers and seriously good fast talking IMO. I could see the armed forces eating up more and more of the GDP as the years go by, putting the squeeze on other sections of government spending. |
And if you agree with the promised land line of ideas I have the land will produce an exportable bounty of citrus and other crops. With a weakened Arab world from lack of oil funding the enemy will be less powerful, but this could be a factor.
Ehm, am I the only one thinking that fanboys and the politically-motivated are what got us the worst sourcebooks *ever* in SR?
Yep!
torz x
torz x
Rory, maybe you should check your political ... convictions ... at the door, as you demand I do. You're involved with an activist group witha clear agenda, and no matter how well those activists can check what's in store in any given supermarket, they won't give you a balanced picture of a rather diverse nation.
| QUOTE |
| I've already destroyed this myth. |
You have stated we're wrong, but all we have is your word. That's not destroying a myth, it's you thinking yourself so much smarter than anyone else. Provide limnks, background, anything to back up your words, otherwise, it's just hot air.
| QUOTE |
More US bashing. What is your problem? Did an American steal your boyfriend? |
You brought this up, Rory. Keep the insults to yourself.
| QUOTE |
| It is true. The darker skinned Jews do seem to be cast as laborers, but this is not as bad as you make it seem. Not nearly as bad as in the US where I live for example. |
And Russian jews, who aren't quite dark skinned, are seen as cheap labour too. So much that more of them emigrated to Germany than to Israel in 2004. Because in oh-so-tolerant Israel, they have no chance to ever practice any job but most menial labor, while in Germany, they can actually hope to get their degrees recognised (no guarantee though, of course, Germany being the country it is, but there IS a possibility).
| QUOTE |
| I am thinking Warsaw ghetto, which is exactly why the Jews would never do that to others. It goes completly against the grain. |
Oh sure. Can't happen there. Racists are always the others.
| QUOTE |
| Well, 2.5 billion customers? |
2.5 billion (actually, more like 900 Million, the remainder of the world's muslim population aren't Arabs, Mr. Blackhand, but I'm sure you already know that, don't you?) impoverished, ragtag, disorganised, jihadi customers. Yeah RIGHT. And fight Loffy tooth and nail for every last one of these.
| QUOTE |
| Stay on topic, leave the US bashing out of it and I will. I'm not interested in your political statements that have nothing to add to the project. |
Since when did you post on topic much? And what project? Have any secret collaborators? Good luck with making your page, but from their comments on your ideas, I guess Omel, Skarn andPenta will do this web book without you.
Adam posted a warning to this thread 3 days ago, looks like it's time for another one. No more personal attacks, please. If you can't disagree in a civil and at least apparently respectful manner, just don't post.
Could we have a separate subforum for this stuff, where we might be able to keep a leash on things?
I'm sensing a core group of people who actually want to work on things...Maybe not to the point of a Fanpro submission, but work on it.
Unfortunately, with the polemics and worse breaking out, it makes doing things very hard.
I'm sensing a core group of people who actually want to work on things...Maybe not to the point of a Fanpro submission, but work on it.
Unfortunately, with the polemics and worse breaking out, it makes doing things very hard.
If that's the case, then you are probably better of taking it elsewhere (not that I necessarily want you to). I don't believe Dumpshock provides 'private' forums (other than possibly for admin use), and just moving the thread to another place (like Community Projects) won't alleviate your problems.
Shalom, chummers
| QUOTE |
| # Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East. The per capita income in 2000 is over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK. |
So, less wealthy arabian neighbors will try to get some of this cash/goods (sorry, my English is to poor to put it more clearly). For arabian runners Israel should be promised land for wealthy jobs.
I didn't read (yet) rest of topic, but did any of you mentioned about faith?
Israel AFAIK is nation based on religion. Ergo, there is many faith among israelian people. So - magic in Israel should be very strong, don't you think?
EDIT:I read rest of topic [cry]. Penta - good luck with your project.
| QUOTE (mattness pl) |
| Israel AFAIK is nation based on religion. Ergo, there is many faith among Israeli people. So - magic in Israel should be very strong, don't you think? |
Uh, no not really. I could see an argument for a faith/charisma thing - more the force of personality than being nice part - which would tie in nicely with the whole Solomon/Djinn thing but I don't really see it making local magic any stronger than average. Sure you've got the local power sites but strength of faith doesn't really have anything to do with the strength of magic, that's something you're just born with, except for perhaps which school of magic you follow. IMHO at least.
| QUOTE (FlakJacket) |
| I don't really see it making local magic any stronger than average. Sure you've got the local power sites but strength of faith doesn't really have anything to do with the strength of magic. |
ask Indians
Close but no cigar. Being and Indian had diddly to do with the NAN's magical superiority, it was the fact that they still believed magic was real and doable, coupled with their oral traditions and rituals that allowed them to get a jump on everyone else when the mana level rose enough. The ritual information for the ghost dance they got from an IE. But ever since the rest of the world caught on to magic they've had the same average of magically active citizens with the same varying degrees of power.
Could try the argument that ancient Jewish writings and texts to do with things like Kabbalah held some remnants of fourth world knowledge that'd allow them a bit of a head start in magic R&D but that just seems a little 'off' to me. The idea of linking faith and magical power just seems way too D&D for me personally.
Could try the argument that ancient Jewish writings and texts to do with things like Kabbalah held some remnants of fourth world knowledge that'd allow them a bit of a head start in magic R&D but that just seems a little 'off' to me. The idea of linking faith and magical power just seems way too D&D for me personally.
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