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wagnern
I like the lifestyle rules, they keep you from having to figure out your charictors rent, utility bills, grocery bills, exc. If fact in my group, we let it cover minor expenses suteable to the lifestyle. (If you stop at the Stuffer Shack for a moon pie and a coke, or GM dosen't make you mark the 2.78 nuyen.gif off your credstick)

I am thinking of proposing a simular system to my GM to cover the minor expences of running. Mostly because while I don't mind keeping track of the ammo on my charictor, I find it anoying to keep track of the ammo back home in the sock drawer.

What I am thinking is a calculated expence as follows:

X percentage of the value of your fire arms. This would cover the cost of normal ammo and normal repair. You can still only carry reasonable amounts with you, but you can replenish for 'free' at your appartment (Let me refill this clip from the box in my closet) or any place you can buy ammo. If you want to carry large amounts of ammo on you you buy the case as normal. (This does not cover any exotic ammo, or expencive expendables such as missles exc.)

Y percentage of vehicle and drone cost. This would cover fuel, scheduled maintence, replacing parts due to wear and tear, Perhaps even to the point of fixing minor dents, dings and the ocasional bullet hole. It would also cover normal ammo for the weapons on the vehicle or drone. (Excluding of corse missles exc.)

Z percentage of armor cost. This would cover the repair / taylor bills to have your armor and armored clothing reparied after the run and cover normal wear and tear.

I just am wondering what values X, Y, and Z should have? The amounts should be reasonable. Now since you can only shoot so many guns at a time, can only drive one vehicle (yes drones are another thing all together) and wear so much armor at one time, it may be approprate to make the charictor pay full for the most expensive* one# of each type, and then only a fractional cost for the others. If so what should that be?

*excluding missle launchers or other devices not covered with the plan
#If the charictor duel welds pistols perhaps the set should be considered one weapon.
Herald of Verjigorm
Y is covered in Rigger 3. Unfortunately, it has a few pages about how you determine what the monthly upkeep costs are for each vehicle.

X doesn't work well because things with an availability other than "always" aren't easy to replace at any corner store. You could rule that if you have a permit, and a permit drops the availability number to 0, that such can be seen as a general expense and you just have to track the quantity on-hand and subtract the proper cred to restock whenever you get a chance.

I think there are rules for armor degradation in CC, not sure if that would help or hurt your idea.
Bearclaw
Most of the stuff you are talking about is mentioned as not being covered.
Basically, there are six categories that make up your "lifestyle" and if it's not in one of those six categories, I'd say "no".
Edward
Vehicle maintenance is quite simple. 1% of the cost of the vehicle very month. There are several pages of optional rules in rigger 3 but if your asking this question you don’t want to use these. This includes all repares that did not result from boxes of damage or stress points (scraches and dings from attacks that did no damage) but dose not include ammunition of any kind se below for ammunition comments.

I haven’t seen rules for armour degradation and maintenance, I assume cleaning is covered buy lifestyle and repairs are at GM discretion anyway. If I was going to require something it would be about 5% of cost per run, but there are skills and spells that will reduce or eliminate this expense.

Guns again have no rules for maintenance, I assume that anybody with a gun knows how to maintain it and cleaning rags and oil are included in lifestyle costs.

Ammunition is the next problem. You could institute a system where a character would declare the amount of ammunition they keep readily available pay that cost every month and it replenishes when they have time but remember ammunition can be hard to get, at least you should require that they explained how they will get a regular supply of the stuff, this is also good for combat drugs, first aid supplies and any other consumables.

And just how much do you keeping your sock draw anyway, for my current character there isn’t much point, he only has 5 clips of ammunition at each residence (along with replacement guns) being a mage he feels no need to keep a large stock pile of bullets (unless he is going into the arcology.) my rigger did have about 20k rounds of ammunition in his vehicles but again, very little siting in boxes.

Edward
wagnern
QUOTE (Bearclaw)
Most of the stuff you are talking about is mentioned as not being covered.
Basically, there are six categories that make up your "lifestyle" and if it's not in one of those six categories, I'd say "no".

I dont mean as part of your lifestyle, I mean as a regular monthly bill simular in theme as lifestyle. Basicly a convient payment that you can make so you the player don't have to worry about the complex rules in Rigger 3 or Cannon Companion. In my group we just feal there is more to worry about in the game than keeping track of wear and tear and stress on our equiptment and trying to remember if we had 15 or 28 rounds of heavy pistol ammo left in that box back home.

Note, as far as avalabiltiy goes, I basickly want the system for basic ammo, you know heavy pistol rounds for your Pred' and stuff like that. I did not mean that you could run into a corner gun shop and run out with apds or such.
Backgammon
I wouldn't even make a system for it. Some people really like to detail expenses and acquisitions. If like me you don't really give a damn about regular ammo, then don't even count it. I don't control Vehicule maintenance either. You can stack a large amount of arguments as to how non-trivial it really is to get bullets (risk on contact trying to kill you, riosk of cops stinging the meet, maybe there is a bullet shortage in Seattle, etc). But if you don't want to deal with it and players don't care, no need to make it an issue.
Edward
With ammunition it gets difficult. I rarely use regular ammunition.

I have
high C plastic
EXEX
Capsule
Gel
And soon AV (pleas before I get into the arcology again let me have some AV)

And this is for a mage

Any system you use should be available for any ammunition you can demonstrate an ability to get reliably.

Personally I don’t think its that hard to keep track of, your still going to keep track of the ammunition carried. All you nee to record in addition is the number of boxes you keep in storage. The only annoying thing is RPing every time you need to buy more but that can be reduced to a 1 min roll.

Edward
TheBovrilMonkey
I suppose it could also depend on how friendly you were with your local gun dealer, I could see a character who's done his contact a couple of favours getting access to their back-room stash of ammo, effectively not needing to make a roll for availability of standard rounds.

Bump up the contact level and I'd say that unless a part of the campaign involves an ammunition shortage, it'd be fairly trivial for a character to get their hands on all sorts of the more fun varieties of ammunition, assuming they keep on the right side of their armourer friend.
noname_hero
In the groups I've played with (or GMed for) we've always differentiated between common ammo and special ammo.
Common ammo types (e.g. regular, shot, Ex, gel) for common firearms were considered easy to obtain both legally and illegaly, therefore the player simply declared something like "I'll spend 500Y on ammo, replenish my supply and use up what'll remain on the shooting range." Most gun-bunnies even upped their lifestyle costs by 200Y-500Y to simulate the expenses (most of which was ammo) they had when they practised during downtime.
Special ammo types (e.g. ExEx, APDS, silver) were considered too difficult to obtain to allow such simplification, and therefore every purchase had to follow the respective rules.
Critias
I just put a disclaimer on the bottom of my primary gunbunny-character's character sheet, stating that there's really no reasonable way to keep track of what sort of ammo he'd have to purchase, maintain in stock, and go through via practice session in order to maintain his 8+ scores in multiple firearms.

So I priced out how much it would cost for 1,000 rounds of AV ammo (the most expensive available), paid that much, and decreed that I'd have lots of other ammo (not AV), on hand pretty much whenever I need it. The ammo prices are out of wack enough (I can easily purchase 1000 rounds for 100 bucks, of standard ammo, IRL) that no one has complained about it yet. I've yet to get a gripe when I say he's packing (*gasp*) three full magazines of standard ammo on him, or a whole (*gasp gasp!*) hundred-round block of handgun ammo in his trunk.
nick012000
My Physical Adept/Pseudo-rigger just bought 6,000 EX rounds for his assorted machine guns during chargen. If he really uses all of it, I'll be very surprised.
Cynic project
Given the fact that you can go to a store and buy boxes ammo in real life. You can get thousands of rounds and not set off any red light if you do it in a somehwat smart way...

Me,I don't really worry about people running out of most ammo outside of run. Most people who have guns can at char gen have at least 1,000 bucks to spend on it. And Crome Cowboys more than likely have around 10K+. Seeing as that you are dealing with people who do what hey do for a living, and should be good at wha they do, it would be silly to think that the gun bunnies do not have passive ways of getting ammmo, at least when it comes to game mechanics. As I said Ammo is cheap and you can get it in bulk.

Now this doens't mean that crome cowboys can never run out of ammo, it means that they have what they have on them and then if they can't go to their pads, or stashes they can run out...But if they can get to either of those places, then they are all good.
Krazy
Makes sense to me (had to laugh at a news clip a few years back about a "maniac" who's house got raided and the cops found 2000 round of ammo. that's like only one case man, and for only one gun, not much at all and that much .22lr is only about a six inch cube) biggrin.gif
speaking of expences, are there any rules for secure storage (u-store) anywhere? I can't think that a real runner would keep all their stuff at one or even a few locations, espesially if you have things that you don't want near you. (anyone want to keep an FAE in their house?)
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Krazy)
speaking of expences, are there any rules for secure storage (u-store) anywhere?

Extra lifestyle, no entertainment, no furnishings, just location, security, and size.
Wounded Ronin
If there were a fixed cost for ammunition it could be horrendously exploited by using a HVAR and doing suppressive fire with AV rounds every single complex action.

Supply lines are a key part of the strategies of conflict. If you have your supply lines of food, medical thingies, and ammuntions, you can fight. If these supplies are disrupted, you're fuxx0red. Keeping enough ammo in your sock drawer, and not running dry at some point because you got a bad Ettiquette roll when trying to get more ammo from your fixer, should be a concern for your character.
Critias
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Keeping enough ammo in your sock drawer, and not running dry at some point because you got a bad Ettiquette roll when trying to get more ammo from your fixer, should be a concern for your character.

Why?

It's stupid. I can go buy 100 9mm rounds right now, at 1 in the morning, from Wally World without even having to show an ID, for about $10. They don't bat an eye if I go "How many boxes you got? Four? Cool, I'll take 'em all. Thanks." Wash, rinse, repeat. I could have 2,000+ rounds very easily, inside an hour and a half (just thinking of how many Wal Marts are within fifteen minutes of here). Not counting the more expensive (about a dollar a round) hollow points I could go pick up from actual gun stores, once they opened.

Sure, keeping track of super-sexy APDS or AV rounds should be a player concern. But normal ammo? Etiquette rolls? Fixers? Horseshit.
Penta
I think a better idea may be to have rules...But only for when you're in a situation where you can't buy ammo.

For exmaple, you're SINless. Critias...They do make you fill out paperwork, don't they?
Critias
QUOTE (Penta)
For exmaple, you're SINless. Critias...They do make you fill out paperwork, don't they?

Where? At Wal-Mart? Heck no. I go to the sporting goods section, I walk up to the register (where they keep the ammo), and I say "Hey. You guys got any of those hundred-round boxes of the cheap nine-mill? You've got three? Sweet. I'll take 'em." Then I hand them my cash.

I guess you might need to fill out a form to buy an actual gun from there (dunno, never tried it), I guess it might vary from state to state (dunno, never bought in another state), and I guess it might be different in 2060whatever (dunno, I'm not there yet). But I know that in real life it's fantastically easy to purchase very large quantities of ammunition very quickly and cheaply. And that's not even mentioning the places on-line that will sell you bulk ammo (my buddy at work got 10,000 rounds delivered to his house last week).
Crimsondude 2.0
Clearly, gun control has become much more prevalent. You can own a man-portable light weapon system, but ammo takes a week to process the paperwork for. Sure, it's an amusing concept in a Chris Rock routine, but I'm with Critias. Ammo is stupid cheap and available.
Earthwalker
It might be easy now but I can see in 2060 things will be harder to obtain. At this moment in time you don't need id to buy a vendor sandwich in 2060 you do. As the vendor machines are in little shops where you need a valid ID to enter.

When I run the game most shops require an ID when you buy any thing. After all everyone has an ID so why not track whos buying what. I like a world where the power of the credstick is king and technology is pervasive. There is a noticable differance between those have and those who havent.

Of course most runners get a cheap fake Id and then do buy general things over the counter. And ammo is no more difficult to get then bread.

I can see it the other way where its alot easier to get things and more places will just take cred from anywhere so no IDs are need for shopping, but thats just not the way I run the game.
Crimsondude 2.0
Um.... If by "ID" you mean, "debit card" then yes, IRL vending machine stores require ID. However, there are these things in SR called "certified credsticks." They're really cool because it's like a universal prepaid debit card like they sell at... every chain store in America. Only cooler because they work everywhere like cash.

Yeah, SR isn't so bad that they have gun vending machines, but still. Ammo is and always will be wicked cheap.
Earthwalker
I know there is certified cred I am just have always seen some places not accepting it. I think its part of my background. I have always assumed that for a lot of items you would have to have ID to buy them. Before reading here I would assume that to buy ammo in America at the moment you would need ID. Clearly I was wrong.

Of course I am still going to make it a simple ID check to buy ammo in the world of 2060 in my games.

As people have already said ammo is so cheap and every character should have contacts to get standard ammo from its not that much of a worry. And characters that will be using tons of AV or APDS or what have you will have a contact to find it from I bet.
wagnern
Well, I talked to my GM with some of these suggestions. He is fealing nice and is thinking he will let me have as much normal and gel ammo in my sock drawer. He is thinking of the fee, but the current idea is for me to buy a case a month to cover practice exc.

As far as my car goes, he thinks it dosen't use that much fuel, so he is considering the 1% monthly upkeep cost. If we go roadtriping he is going to stick us with the fuel cost though.

Armor, he is still thinking about.

From the descusion, I think it just matters how much detail and trouble the players and GM want to put into the game. If that is the flavor of your game, then having to worry about scraping up ammo and knowing that you only have two clips and change and to get more you need to meet up with your fixer while people are trying to kill you could build dramiatic tension, but it is not for every game.
Cynic project
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
If there were a fixed cost for ammunition it could be horrendously exploited by using a HVAR and doing suppressive fire with AV rounds every single complex action.

Supply lines are a key part of the strategies of conflict. If you have your supply lines of food, medical thingies, and ammuntions, you can fight. If these supplies are disrupted, you're fuxx0red. Keeping enough ammo in your sock drawer, and not running dry at some point because you got a bad Ettiquette roll when trying to get more ammo from your fixer, should be a concern for your character.

Let me restate this one little idea. I am a Crome Cowboy I have about 650K-1,000K to spend. I will most likely have at least 50K after cyberware. I do not need to spend more than 10K on weapons/armour, maybe 30 other other things and I then am left with about 10K that I could spend on whatever I wanted. So how much lead can you buy with 10K? Me i have played steet same that that 200K to spare after cyberware.Do you really think that he would have issues with having enough money and storage palces to suply a small army for a prolonged time?

The thing is that you shadowruners should be treat as being smarted then their players.At elast for the msot part. They know they world. They really worry about things as if were life and death, because for them it is.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Cynic project @ May 20 2005, 04:09 PM)
So how much lead can you buy with 10K?

Before taxes and shipping costs, you can buy more than 45,800 rounds of .45 ACP or 85,700+ rounds of 9mm Para online. And that was just a quick Google search hitting the first thing I saw.

Doing a little more checking, you can buy 31,400+ rounds of .223 FMJ straight from Winchester for 10K. For sport shooting. Where "sport" = anyone on the wrong side of your M-23.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Critias)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ May 19 2005, 07:38 PM)
Keeping enough ammo in your sock drawer, and not running dry at some point because you got a bad Ettiquette roll when trying to get more ammo from your fixer, should be a concern for your character.

Why?

It's stupid. I can go buy 100 9mm rounds right now, at 1 in the morning, from Wally World without even having to show an ID, for about $10. They don't bat an eye if I go "How many boxes you got? Four? Cool, I'll take 'em all. Thanks." Wash, rinse, repeat. I could have 2,000+ rounds very easily, inside an hour and a half (just thinking of how many Wal Marts are within fifteen minutes of here). Not counting the more expensive (about a dollar a round) hollow points I could go pick up from actual gun stores, once they opened.

Sure, keeping track of super-sexy APDS or AV rounds should be a player concern. But normal ammo? Etiquette rolls? Fixers? Horseshit.

Regular ammo has an Availability rating just like everything else. Maybe SINless characters *need* to buy it from a fixer, and the fixer can only siphon off so much every month.

Sure, if you want to be t3h r43l for today, you could be some shady guy who buys lots of ammo easily. But, if it were the same way in the SR world, regular ammo wouldn't have Availability. It would be Always.
Critias
Right. I understand it has an Availability rating. I'm just saying it's stupid.

In much the same way, it's stupid you can't ever get a permit for some items (knives, I think?), or that bows and arrows have different legality codes (because a bow without arrows, or an arrow without bows, is horribly dangerous and illegal). I know the rule. I just think it's dumb (like a lot of other little nitpicky stuff in the gear chapter).
Gambitt
Laws and politics govern the availability of weapons/ammo in the real world.
Laws and politics govern the availability of weapons/ammo in the world of shadowrun.
I dont see how one directly applies to the other.
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