Full Version: What should I be getting paid?
I am looking to get calibrated on payments for running in the shadows. Yes, I know that it will vary depending on reputation, difficulty of the job, character type, and experience, but I would still like to get the ideas of this forum for how much one could expect for various jobs. More than anything, I would like help knowing how much to expect to charge a Johnson for any given job for any given team/runner. Any help will be appreciated. I would also be interested in knowing if the character types (decker/sam/etc) should get paid differently, or if the fee would usually get split evenly.
Realistically, there should be differences in pay. Just make sure all of your players are up for haggling with each other as to why they're more or less valuable than the other team members before you go down that path.
~J
~J
Both of my current groups have a lot of overlap.
We don't work for less than 25K each. We might work for less than that when first starting out as a group, but after a run or two, it's 25K each MINIMUM or we walk. Half of that must be paid up front or, again, we walk. The up front money is for any purchases we need to make for this run, like disposable cars, wigs, new linguasofts, etc. Once we complete the run, we take the other half, add it to whatever is left, and split it evenly.
We're currently a three-person group(Face, Sorceror, and AR Samurai, had a decker but he dropped after two sessions). On our last run, the Dwarf was pretty fruity and wasn't necessary for the completion of the job while the decker was invaluable. We still paid everyone the same. Why? Because each char is more or less useful on certain jobs. If everyone is paid the same when they're useful as when they're useless, it pretty much balances out.
The same logic holds true in my other group. My char has been pretty useless on this run, but on previous runs he WAS the reason we succeeded. You win some, you lose some.
Some chars 'need' nuyen more than others. The solution is that if you want to spend other peoples money, you convince the group it benefits everyone as a whole for us to have it. We don't pay for your hookers, your drugs, or your bone lacing. But a medical clinic? Yeah, we might be on board for that.
We don't work for less than 25K each. We might work for less than that when first starting out as a group, but after a run or two, it's 25K each MINIMUM or we walk. Half of that must be paid up front or, again, we walk. The up front money is for any purchases we need to make for this run, like disposable cars, wigs, new linguasofts, etc. Once we complete the run, we take the other half, add it to whatever is left, and split it evenly.
We're currently a three-person group(Face, Sorceror, and AR Samurai, had a decker but he dropped after two sessions). On our last run, the Dwarf was pretty fruity and wasn't necessary for the completion of the job while the decker was invaluable. We still paid everyone the same. Why? Because each char is more or less useful on certain jobs. If everyone is paid the same when they're useful as when they're useless, it pretty much balances out.
The same logic holds true in my other group. My char has been pretty useless on this run, but on previous runs he WAS the reason we succeeded. You win some, you lose some.
Some chars 'need' nuyen more than others. The solution is that if you want to spend other peoples money, you convince the group it benefits everyone as a whole for us to have it. We don't pay for your hookers, your drugs, or your bone lacing. But a medical clinic? Yeah, we might be on board for that.
SR3 suggests using around the characters lifestyle in pay, to make sure they can eat. The copanion book has a much better break down. Wetwork and extractions usually pay about 20k, they're the top, unless you count 'snatch the protoytpe', which I think was about 5-10% of the value. Then up it from there due to difficulty and rep, that sort of thing.
Usually once my team is a team, we get flat pay as a team, up to us how to distribute. For newer 'groups', basically all independent, the PC's usually get their pay offer seperately, to avoid anyone capping a fellow runner just after the run so that they get a bigger cut. It's happened before.
Usually once my team is a team, we get flat pay as a team, up to us how to distribute. For newer 'groups', basically all independent, the PC's usually get their pay offer seperately, to avoid anyone capping a fellow runner just after the run so that they get a bigger cut. It's happened before.
Hey Modesitt, why not bone lacing? As the shaman in my group, I don't really need much cash, and usually throw a good chunk of my share into the riggers vehicles, or cyber for the sam. Pretty straight forward, if he's still up to shoot because of that bone lacing, I have a better chance of living through the run.
| QUOTE (Modesitt @ May 20 2005, 01:21 AM) |
| We don't work for less than 25K each. We might work for less than that when first starting out as a group, but after a run or two, it's 25K each MINIMUM or we walk. Half of that must be paid up front or, again, we walk. |
I see. Well if the GM agrees that it's the going rate, it's okay. But it's the GM who decides that.
Swing Kid : The real question is what power level are you confortable with? It's obvious that if the average paycheck is 100K, you'll get very powerful PC with top notch cyberware, programs and focus within a few sessions. If it average at 10K, the power level you'll observe in the first sessions will be maintained in the short term and will increase slowly. If you are not an experienced GM, I recommend a low base paycheck. Then have each mission fluctuate around that based on common sense.
If players walk, that's okay. Just tell them to shell out half their lifestyle expenses because they found no other run in the following two weeks and then present either next week's run (if it's readdy) or the same run with a few of the names changed. Offer roughly the same wage. Warn them through their contact that they're getting a prima donna reputation that isn't yet earned. They'll get the idea. Beside, it's much better to start too low than too high. The adjustments after a few runs are much less painful.
| QUOTE (Charon) |
| If players walk, that's okay. Just tell them to shell out half their lifestyle expenses because they found no other run in the following two weeks and then present either next week's run (if it's readdy) or the same run with a few of the names changed. Offer roughly the same wage. Warn them through their contact that they're getting a prima donna reputation that isn't yet earned. They'll get the idea. Beside, it's much better to start too low than too high. The adjustments after a few runs are much less painful. |
If the PCs walk, and you as a GM insist on not taking the hint, and offer a job with the same pay, the players will walk. Good luck playing with yourself.
Don't knock it 'till you've tried it. I've had some pretty interesting runs and downtimes adventures engaging in mental masturbation where I played GM and PC. I can also say that so far I've been a bigger threat to my current PCs' continued survival than other GMs.
I prefer to call it "short fiction, with dice and rules."
Old habits... You know. Your term is more correct. MM would more appropriately refer to posting here.
Johnson’s will always offer an amount to each member or a flat sum the teem will divide as they see fit, most groups split it evenly unless there is a unexpected expense (rigger gets more if he looses a drone)
There is also the issue of expenses, Johnson’s will sometimes provide things like disposable cars but not always, this will affect the price (especially considering the number of disposable cars that wind up in a chop shop).
The problem with the prises quoted in SRComp and MJLBB is that there frightfully low especially when you consider that some of these runners have over a million nuyen in hard wear (m 2-4 mill if they have to replace it on the street) or magical skills that can earn a base rat of 100nuyen an hours (for wards) and climbing quickly. The characters that suffer the most are the million nuyen riggers, with 600k worth of drones and a lifestyle that will provide space for them these characters have fixed monthly expenses of 16k as a minimum. If a drone gets damaged that goes up buy tens of thousands. The best paying runs in MJLBB would get him maybe 5k, and that is a big job.
The prises in the modules are better guides.
I have taken jobs paying anywhere between 20k and 250k (going for the bounty on a blood mage 3 teem members and 5 ringers)
As to other characters paying for stuff, I have done it but not often. The teem really needs to be very close to have that happen, at least you need to know that the samy your buying wear for will be beside you on your next run
Really you can decide the average pay rate but tell the players before they build characters so they don’t have characters that have monthly expenses several times there income, you can still have a dry patch now and then the players just know what there used to earning.
Edward
There is also the issue of expenses, Johnson’s will sometimes provide things like disposable cars but not always, this will affect the price (especially considering the number of disposable cars that wind up in a chop shop).
The problem with the prises quoted in SRComp and MJLBB is that there frightfully low especially when you consider that some of these runners have over a million nuyen in hard wear (m 2-4 mill if they have to replace it on the street) or magical skills that can earn a base rat of 100nuyen an hours (for wards) and climbing quickly. The characters that suffer the most are the million nuyen riggers, with 600k worth of drones and a lifestyle that will provide space for them these characters have fixed monthly expenses of 16k as a minimum. If a drone gets damaged that goes up buy tens of thousands. The best paying runs in MJLBB would get him maybe 5k, and that is a big job.
The prises in the modules are better guides.
I have taken jobs paying anywhere between 20k and 250k (going for the bounty on a blood mage 3 teem members and 5 ringers)
As to other characters paying for stuff, I have done it but not often. The teem really needs to be very close to have that happen, at least you need to know that the samy your buying wear for will be beside you on your next run
Really you can decide the average pay rate but tell the players before they build characters so they don’t have characters that have monthly expenses several times there income, you can still have a dry patch now and then the players just know what there used to earning.
Edward
It also depends on some variables of your game, like how often the runners will be running...
Using the following assumptions:
In 5 years a runner should be able to 're-create' themselves (i.e. end up with about 1 million Y more stuff than when they started).
If you run every month, thats 60 runs, so each run would have to pay you an average of ~16,667 Y plus whatever expenses you might encounter living a high lifestyle for those 5 years adds 10,000 Y per run to that figure...
The economics of SR are pretty whacked, but it soulds like the 25K minimum might be a good place to start.
If it is impossible to make 1 mil in 5 years in the shadows, then the million dollar men that seem so common there would be impossible.
I think a large part of the 'problem' with the pay per runs is the ridiculous cost of most of the 'toys'. Reducing the cost of toys vs the cost of everyday goods will make lower run payments make sense. 10 Y a bullet and 10K per disposable rifle means that a runner has to make money hand over fist to even replace 'used' toys. .1 Y a bullet and 1K per rifle would mean that a runner can get by on much less.
Using the following assumptions:
In 5 years a runner should be able to 're-create' themselves (i.e. end up with about 1 million Y more stuff than when they started).
If you run every month, thats 60 runs, so each run would have to pay you an average of ~16,667 Y plus whatever expenses you might encounter living a high lifestyle for those 5 years adds 10,000 Y per run to that figure...
The economics of SR are pretty whacked, but it soulds like the 25K minimum might be a good place to start.
If it is impossible to make 1 mil in 5 years in the shadows, then the million dollar men that seem so common there would be impossible.
I think a large part of the 'problem' with the pay per runs is the ridiculous cost of most of the 'toys'. Reducing the cost of toys vs the cost of everyday goods will make lower run payments make sense. 10 Y a bullet and 10K per disposable rifle means that a runner has to make money hand over fist to even replace 'used' toys. .1 Y a bullet and 1K per rifle would mean that a runner can get by on much less.
| QUOTE |
| Hey Modesitt, why not bone lacing? |
Upgrading the riggers vehicle can make sense. My Rigger has a standing offer - You give him 5K, you get your own ejection seat.
It's mostly just a difference of groups. My groups typically have PCs that don't trust each other too much. I imagine your PCs probably trust each other a lot more. Granted, I have seen entire groups spontaneously decide to give one another Christmas presents.
Personally, if someone has a role and wants to be better at it - They spend their money on it. You're free to leave at any time and do your own thing. You'd be expected to leave anything the group paid for with the group.
@Charon:
If a GM refuses to pay my chars enough to make it worth their while, they don't just sit on their hands and wait patiently for the GM to give them a new run. They simply go off and do something else that makes them money until they get a job that pays enough.
If a char can crack a maglock, a char can make money stealing and selling cars. Go look at the amount of money you would make stealing and selling JUST Jackrabbits, the most common car on the road. If you made 20% street value off of each(Guessing that the Fence will typically come out on top in negotiations), you'd make 3,260 nuyen EACH. You are essentially paying him to NOT go off and play Grand Theft Auto: Seattle.
This isn't the only example of this. Pretty much any character who wants to can find some way to make money during downtime. Shadowrunning not paying enough? Oh well, back to writing software.
| QUOTE (Modesitt) |
| We don't work for less than 25K each. We might work for less than that when first starting out as a group, but after a run or two, it's 25K each MINIMUM or we walk. Half of that must be paid up front or, again, we walk. The up front money is for any purchases we need to make for this run, like disposable cars, wigs, new linguasofts, etc. Once we complete the run, we take the other half, add it to whatever is left, and split it evenly. |
I'm glad that works for you, but in my campaign you'd be doing an awful lot of walking. How many people on the team?
Well, that or you'd be jumping straight to the kinds of runs that command that kind of pay, namely the ones that are probably going to get you killed if you really ask that much that quickly.
~J
Well, lets break it down
A) You're paying a group of people to commit crime(s), so you have to make it worth the possibility of going to jail and/or possible death.
B) You're paying the group to be professional in the way they go about things. Otherwise you'd just hire a gang.
C) You can expect a certain element of deniability. For instance, if they get caught by LS or (insert security agency of choice), you're expecting that they won't just hand over the details on how to contact you.
D) In most cases, you're expecting the group in question to have the gear that they need and/or get it themselves.
Depending on the group and the run, you're expecting the charges could amount to:
A) Murder
B) B&E
C) Theft
A) You're paying a group of people to commit crime(s), so you have to make it worth the possibility of going to jail and/or possible death.
B) You're paying the group to be professional in the way they go about things. Otherwise you'd just hire a gang.
C) You can expect a certain element of deniability. For instance, if they get caught by LS or (insert security agency of choice), you're expecting that they won't just hand over the details on how to contact you.
D) In most cases, you're expecting the group in question to have the gear that they need and/or get it themselves.
Depending on the group and the run, you're expecting the charges could amount to:
A) Murder
B) B&E
C) Theft
E) You're paying them significantly less than the value of what they're doing. For example, if a run will net you ~¥100,000 worth of assets and intangibles, you don't pay ¥120,000 or even ¥60,000 to get it done.
F) The true cost of a run is significantly more than the cost of hiring runners. Hiring the Johnson, paying possible bodyguards for the Johnson, having contingencies for the noncompletion of the run or betrayal by the runners, these things all cost money.
~J
F) The true cost of a run is significantly more than the cost of hiring runners. Hiring the Johnson, paying possible bodyguards for the Johnson, having contingencies for the noncompletion of the run or betrayal by the runners, these things all cost money.
~J
| QUOTE (Modesitt) |
| Pretty much any character who wants to can find some way to make money during downtime. Shadowrunning not paying enough? Oh well, back to writing software. |
Yes most any character could make money on the street doing other things than runs. But they would have to be doing a lot of little things rather than a single run. This means it will be far more likely that they will run into the Star, make mistakes, etc. Also, any crime spree would likely attract the attention of Lone Star, and even if it didn't it would end up with other negative effects such as security levels drastically increasing due and/or value of said action drastically decreasing (you don't really expect the fence to give you the same pay each time do you? he has to be able to sell the thing off or he aint making shit off the deal).
| QUOTE (toturi @ May 20 2005, 01:50 AM) |
| If the PCs walk, and you as a GM insist on not taking the hint, and offer a job with the same pay, the players will walk. Good luck playing with yourself. |
Yeah, you say that but it never really happens.
If player are trying to dictate me their terms IC, good luck. You'll have to discuss it with me OOC.
And one GM has as much weight about how the game will be conducted as all the player together if they are putting up a united front. Since they pretty much never do, the balance of the power is in the hand of the GM because there are a lot less GM than players on the market, after all.
I'm not saying that to be a prick or appear to be a dictator. I try to run an ejoyable game. There is some dialogue. But by and large, I've always run pretty much exactly the style of game I wanted in any given campaign and no player has ever walked on me for it. At worst we'd agree on a shorter campaign so I'd get a certain style of play out of my system. For one thing, it's easier to find compatible new players than a competent new GM. Secondly, the game is in my experience more enjoyable if the GM like what he does than if the game is perfectly tailored to the player's taste but not to the GM's taste. I'm talking with experience from both side of the fence. The guy who does most of the creative work deserve to create something he likes. If my players really want to try something different, they are free to pick up the GM mantle for a few sessions and they sometime do.
If the PCs all walk because they honestly like the way they're getting paid, the GM should take the hint. It shouldn't be a common occurrance though. Especially when you have PCs with fixed monthly expenses that eat up almost all of their pay -- when 95% of your pay is devoted to 'maintaining present standards', then the character is not getting paid enough. Not in the least.
The person running the game should be slapped if he isn't willing to adjust the style of play to something between what the players want and what he wants. It doesn't matter if he's the only only one willing within a hundred miles -- if he doesn't want to work with the players to come up with something they'll enjoy as well as he will, then he isn't a GM. He's someone running a game for his own amusement.
That is not to say that the GM should just pay out the way the players want. But it is to say that if the players on the whole want a better paying game, then the GM should oblige them. Not paying out enough to give them a chance to advance anywhere is nothing but arbitrarily limiting the mundanes -- awakened don't actually need money. They can do advance quite well without foci. Not easy, but possible.
Actually, it'd be interesting to see if there's a corrollation between games that don't pay well and games where mundanes are quickly outstriped by awakened. I doubt it's all the cases -- my group doesn't pay out well, but I've never felt drastically outdone by the awakened. Out-plotlined sometimes, but not outdone. That's really changed lately though.
The person running the game should be slapped if he isn't willing to adjust the style of play to something between what the players want and what he wants. It doesn't matter if he's the only only one willing within a hundred miles -- if he doesn't want to work with the players to come up with something they'll enjoy as well as he will, then he isn't a GM. He's someone running a game for his own amusement.
That is not to say that the GM should just pay out the way the players want. But it is to say that if the players on the whole want a better paying game, then the GM should oblige them. Not paying out enough to give them a chance to advance anywhere is nothing but arbitrarily limiting the mundanes -- awakened don't actually need money. They can do advance quite well without foci. Not easy, but possible.
Actually, it'd be interesting to see if there's a corrollation between games that don't pay well and games where mundanes are quickly outstriped by awakened. I doubt it's all the cases -- my group doesn't pay out well, but I've never felt drastically outdone by the awakened. Out-plotlined sometimes, but not outdone. That's really changed lately though.
I've had a tendancy to deal with this in one of two ways, as a player.
1) If the probable costs of a run (odd equipment, transit, bribes, etc) are more than 50% of what I'm getting paid, I won't do the run. That doesn't mean 'get the run done for bargain basement', that means 'get the run done right.' As a runner, you have an obligation to keep overhead down, both for yourself, and for your employer (based on the fact that it'll just get around that you charge too much). But sometimes you have to ICly put your foot down and say "Listen. You can either pay a small amount of money to maybe have this done right, or you can pay more for the certainty that it will be done right. This connects to the below:
2) My PCs won't run for less money than they think they're worth, unless it's a cause they believe in. Witness, doing Brainscan - I didn't ask for pay for that one. Same with hunting down psycho blood magician types, say. If someone tries to pay our team less than what we're worth, we'll just say, "No. You came to us looking for quality and certainty. If you can't afford to pay for that certainty and quality, hire someone with a success rate that isn't above 98%." Our 'worth value' is based on the average pay for runners, increased amorphously by our success and stealth rate.
If the Johnson still won't increase his rates, we'll suggest someone less pricey to him and walk. That way he'll still have a recourse for what he wants done, we keep our rep, and we don't go broke. And, in a round-about way, it gets out that said Johnson (or his funders) is unwilling to pay for stealth and silence, and that run may get your ass all over the news.
And, as to the thing about awakened progressing sans foci: I've never once bought a foci past starting. They're just too damn expensive. I've made some, but that's different, since the price is so much less.
1) If the probable costs of a run (odd equipment, transit, bribes, etc) are more than 50% of what I'm getting paid, I won't do the run. That doesn't mean 'get the run done for bargain basement', that means 'get the run done right.' As a runner, you have an obligation to keep overhead down, both for yourself, and for your employer (based on the fact that it'll just get around that you charge too much). But sometimes you have to ICly put your foot down and say "Listen. You can either pay a small amount of money to maybe have this done right, or you can pay more for the certainty that it will be done right. This connects to the below:
2) My PCs won't run for less money than they think they're worth, unless it's a cause they believe in. Witness, doing Brainscan - I didn't ask for pay for that one. Same with hunting down psycho blood magician types, say. If someone tries to pay our team less than what we're worth, we'll just say, "No. You came to us looking for quality and certainty. If you can't afford to pay for that certainty and quality, hire someone with a success rate that isn't above 98%." Our 'worth value' is based on the average pay for runners, increased amorphously by our success and stealth rate.
If the Johnson still won't increase his rates, we'll suggest someone less pricey to him and walk. That way he'll still have a recourse for what he wants done, we keep our rep, and we don't go broke. And, in a round-about way, it gets out that said Johnson (or his funders) is unwilling to pay for stealth and silence, and that run may get your ass all over the news.
And, as to the thing about awakened progressing sans foci: I've never once bought a foci past starting. They're just too damn expensive. I've made some, but that's different, since the price is so much less.
I try to think about how else a job could get done.
If you want general mayhem, like say shooting up a building, killing a guy with moderate or less security, or hijacking a truck, hire the Black Rain.
Figure
500 for the boss, who will do nothing but assign a group of guys to do it. 500 more for the lieutenant actually in charge of the team, and 200 each for the 10 guys. So 3000. But they're some what unreliable.
A 5 man merc team will do the same jobs for 5000, if you want to be sure it's done right.
So, for any job that actually needs Shadowrunners, rather than just muscle, the price starts at 10,000 for the job. The more skills you need, the more reliability you need, the more subtlety you need, the more magic you need, the more the price goes up.
A job is NEVER worth X PER RUNNER. It is worth X . The per runner thing is just plain silly.
"I need some one to paint my house. I'll offer $200 per person working on it. Hope there's only 2 or 3."
Bigger teams have the advantage of generally making runs easier. That's it's own payoff. And honestly, if you've got a six or seven person team, you can be doing leg work for more than one job at a time.
If you want general mayhem, like say shooting up a building, killing a guy with moderate or less security, or hijacking a truck, hire the Black Rain.
Figure
500 for the boss, who will do nothing but assign a group of guys to do it. 500 more for the lieutenant actually in charge of the team, and 200 each for the 10 guys. So 3000. But they're some what unreliable.A 5 man merc team will do the same jobs for
5000, if you want to be sure it's done right.So, for any job that actually needs Shadowrunners, rather than just muscle, the price starts at
10,000 for the job. The more skills you need, the more reliability you need, the more subtlety you need, the more magic you need, the more the price goes up.A job is NEVER worth X
PER RUNNER. It is worth X . The per runner thing is just plain silly."I need some one to paint my house. I'll offer $200 per person working on it. Hope there's only 2 or 3."
Bigger teams have the advantage of generally making runs easier. That's it's own payoff. And honestly, if you've got a six or seven person team, you can be doing leg work for more than one job at a time.
| QUOTE (Bearclaw @ May 20 2005, 12:50 PM) |
| And honestly, if you've got a six or seven person team, you can be doing leg work for more than one job at a time. |
Ugh... You obviously don't GM much... I have enough trouble keeping my group doing one job.
The way I play it is generally the Johnson's have a set amount of money to spend. They find out how many people are in the group and divided it up so it comes out to $X per runner.
Why?
1) If anyone else joins up, they weren't in the original contract, so he doesn't pay 'em
2) If anyone dies, he keeps the difference (he can get his cut when he comes to claim it)
It also helps because it discourages the group from deciding to dump other PCs. That goes into out of game stuff that just isn't any fun.
I've GM'd a decent bit, thank you very much. And I've had a party preparing for a run, while one of the group was doing preliminary legwork for a job that they had dropped in their lap as a "favor" for a powerful individual.
Anyway.
I have used the "per runner" thing myself, to decide how much it's worth to the characters, then just did the math. Usually though it's not necessary. Unless it's a "no one ever knew you were there" kind of thing, I always make sure there's a decent bit of loot around, so the runners can turn a profit.
100,000 ended up being much less then the run all over Seattle and the NAN was worth, but the guy with the box they were supposed to find and return was riding in a Prairie Cat, which greatly eased the complaints 
Anyway.
I have used the "per runner" thing myself, to decide how much it's worth to the characters, then just did the math. Usually though it's not necessary. Unless it's a "no one ever knew you were there" kind of thing, I always make sure there's a decent bit of loot around, so the runners can turn a profit.
100,000 ended up being much less then the run all over Seattle and the NAN was worth, but the guy with the box they were supposed to find and return was riding in a Prairie Cat, which greatly eased the complaints
As was suggested before (can't remember the threads) I have each player keep two active characters at all times and treat all of them as members of the same loose team. No player is allowed to run more than one character during a game, but having more than one by player allows to customize the team a bit more before a mission. It helps with game continuity when specific characters are in ICU, or off initiating / learning Thai Cooking / finding themselves. It also means that my players will often have one character engaged in legwork for the next run while their other character is completing the current job. I've even encouraged character-swapping to make it easier to deal with a player's last-minute absence ffrom a gaming session, and it seems to help the team function better.
I usually pay the team a fixed amount with bonuses & conditions, i.e. 40K for retrieving this file, but only 20K if you end up killing the scientist to get it, etc.. I'll use per-runner rates when the team needs some expertise on the sidelines and wishes to hire one of their other characters to assist without participating in the main run (mostly specialty services like medtech, surveillance, transportation). I've almost never had runners killing each other or their NPC associates over pay, since I impose very bad consequences for behavior like that: loss of street rep, long stretches of crappy jobs, relocation, vendettas, etc..
I usually pay the team a fixed amount with bonuses & conditions, i.e. 40K for retrieving this file, but only 20K if you end up killing the scientist to get it, etc.. I'll use per-runner rates when the team needs some expertise on the sidelines and wishes to hire one of their other characters to assist without participating in the main run (mostly specialty services like medtech, surveillance, transportation). I've almost never had runners killing each other or their NPC associates over pay, since I impose very bad consequences for behavior like that: loss of street rep, long stretches of crappy jobs, relocation, vendettas, etc..
Supply and Demand. If the job could be done by a lot of people then it is worth less, if it requires special talents the team possesses, then it will pay better because there is not as many teams who could do it. Also, what is the time frame? If the Johnson has plenty of time to find a team and arange the run, then he can shop around, but if it has to be done now then he will have to 'price it to sell'.
Meta game wise, ask yourself these questions:
1) How ofter in game time dose the team run?
2) How many toys do you want them to have?
3) How strong of a motivator do you want money to be?
Now I find it cool when they will pay you X to do the job, but if you can also do A, B, and/or C, we have bonises avalable. Even if Mr Johnson dosen't offer the bonises, if the team does manage to pull off more than asked he should give them a bonus. As long as the extra is helpfull and dosen't endanger the Johnson or his employers. (The mission was to kidnap a scientist, but we also got his notes and materials).
Meta game wise, ask yourself these questions:
1) How ofter in game time dose the team run?
2) How many toys do you want them to have?
3) How strong of a motivator do you want money to be?
Now I find it cool when they will pay you X to do the job, but if you can also do A, B, and/or C, we have bonises avalable. Even if Mr Johnson dosen't offer the bonises, if the team does manage to pull off more than asked he should give them a bonus. As long as the extra is helpfull and dosen't endanger the Johnson or his employers. (The mission was to kidnap a scientist, but we also got his notes and materials).
| QUOTE (Bearclaw) |
| I've GM'd a decent bit, thank you very much. And I've had a party preparing for a run, while one of the group was doing preliminary legwork for a job that they had dropped in their lap as a "favor" for a powerful individual. |
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come across as insulting. However, I run groups of 6-9 people online (which means I have all the advantages I can have for a large group) and I simply can't imagine running one job for the main group and separate jobs for the rest of them for any significant amount of time. I tried it once for a week, and I pretty much had to put my job on hold. Making it a regular component of my game... Well, they'd literally have to pay me, since my boss wouldn't be any more. I certainly can't imagine doing it like that for table top without a second GM (at which point, you might as well make two games).
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||
If the PCs walk, and you as a GM insist on not taking the hint, and offer a job with the same pay, the players will walk. Good luck playing with yourself. |
Do you routinely attempt this level of emotion blackmail any time the GM doesn't do exactly what you, the player, want?
To me, it just sounded like Charon was being realiistic. Any team that insists on getting a minimum of 25,000 nuyen per run will find there are plenty of teams willing to take the run for less. They would still get jobs, but they would be rarer and more dangerous.
IF a someone won't GM the game the I the player want to play.. yes, I leave.
Usually, it's a question of style, but not always. If I'm not fond of the style of game being run and I'm feeling like I'm not getting the advancement ability that I should, then it's a pretty sure thing I'll walk. If I'm enjoying the game, then I'll probably continue -- and make it pretty clear that I'd like to advance faster. Doesn't mean I will advance as fast as I want, but it does speed things up a little. I loathe playing the exact same character long term -- and getting paid not enough to upgrade anything really bugs me.
Now.. advancement in Shadowrun is decided by 2 things. Nuyen and Karma. Karma awards? High karma pay outs are fun, and advance all characters really fast. (Even metalheads, despite opinions to the contrary. Double digit skills ARE good things, and all stats at RML or higher, unaugmented are useful.) High nuyen games advance all characters fast too -- more so the metalheads, unless there's karma for cash, because foci take karma to bond.
Usually, it's a question of style, but not always. If I'm not fond of the style of game being run and I'm feeling like I'm not getting the advancement ability that I should, then it's a pretty sure thing I'll walk. If I'm enjoying the game, then I'll probably continue -- and make it pretty clear that I'd like to advance faster. Doesn't mean I will advance as fast as I want, but it does speed things up a little. I loathe playing the exact same character long term -- and getting paid not enough to upgrade anything really bugs me.
Now.. advancement in Shadowrun is decided by 2 things. Nuyen and Karma. Karma awards? High karma pay outs are fun, and advance all characters really fast. (Even metalheads, despite opinions to the contrary. Double digit skills ARE good things, and all stats at RML or higher, unaugmented are useful.) High nuyen games advance all characters fast too -- more so the metalheads, unless there's karma for cash, because foci take karma to bond.
Thanks for putting this thread up - I almost forgot about it.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| How many people on the team? |
In my two groups, four(Samurai, full Hermetic mage, Wheel Mage, and conjurer/rigger) and three(Face, Samurai, Sorceror).
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Well, that or you'd be jumping straight to the kinds of runs that command that kind of pay, namely the ones that are probably going to get you killed if you really ask that much that quickly. |
Current run for the foursome - Break into a high-security Mitsuhama compound(Defenses start with two electric fences and a minefield around the place), break into the safehouse of a rival team of shadowrunners that is inside the compound, and extract a KE officer from under their noses. The officer may or may not be willing, we're not sure. Pay is our minimum of 100K, game is typically high karma.
Current run for the threesome - Find and steal a secure datavault belonging to a paranoid globe-hopping decker. The datavault is somewhere in Seattle. We haven't actually started this run yet, the GM just read all of us the email the Johnson will send out. So I don't know how rough this will be. This run is also 100K, but for a reason. It wasn't personally sent to us, it was just a general broadcast to a bunch of runners in Seattle, 100K to whoever gets it. This means the dangerous part of the run could be trying to get the datavault to the Johnson, dodging other runner teams across Seattle. This game is typically low karma.
| QUOTE (Slacker) |
| Yes most any character could make money on the street doing other things than runs. But they would have to be doing a lot of little things rather than a single run |
Which is exactly why they're running in the first place. If you bring the pay down past the point where I can make more money stealing and selling one or two cars a week, I go steal cars until the next job comes along.
| QUOTE (Slacker) |
| you don't really expect the fence to give you the same pay each time do you? he has to be able to sell the thing off or he aint making shit off the deal |
We're not talking about buying survival knives and selling the trauma patches at a profit. This is selling stolen cars at 20% of retail price. I know my own groups often buy cars off of fences for when we need something disposable. If someone can't make a profit buying something at 20% of retail and reselling it, they don't deserve to be in business.
Yeah, for that kind of run I'd go in the ¥90,000-¥120,000 range. I'd still only give ~30% up front, most likely, or more in the form of non-liquid assets.
~J
~J
If you think that a 5 jackrabbit a month crime spree will be noticed buy the star you really don’t have a very high background crime rate in your game.
The biggest time I can see these problems coming up is when a player wrights up a million nuyen character with 25K in monthly fixed expenses and then finds out the average income is going to be 10K per player per month. The GM really should be telling the players what there characters are used to earning before character creation. Of cause there can be player to GM discussion on this point to come up with a game style that will be enjoyed but that figure should be known.
The biggest time I can see these problems coming up is when a player wrights up a million nuyen character with 25K in monthly fixed expenses and then finds out the average income is going to be 10K per player per month. The GM really should be telling the players what there characters are used to earning before character creation. Of cause there can be player to GM discussion on this point to come up with a game style that will be enjoyed but that figure should be known.
I just read all of the posted replies, and I must say, there is some great information there. I am interested in seeing more actual numbers if anyone has the time. Lets assume for this discussion that we have the following team:
Street Sam
Shaman
Combat Mage
Decker
Rigger
Now, lets assume that this team survives a ten year career, and that in that career they went from untalented nobodies (new characters) to top-notch, top dollar professionals, and that their reputations and talents rose at a rate that each year they were 1/10th more talented and 1/10th more respected in the shadowrunning community. Remember, this is just to calibrate actual earnings, and yes, I realize that this cannot be used as a definitive fee-guide, as there are still other variables.
So, with this assumption, what should the first year version of this team (team, not individual) expect for a B&E Prototype steal that would be considdered moderately difficult for this team (Say, stealing the secret recipe for Ninja-Burger's new McRonin burger)? Then, what could the 10th year version of the same team expect from a B&E Prototype steal that would be considdered moderately difficult at that point in their careers (say, stealing Deus's CPU). How about on their 3rd year, 5th year, and 8th year? What about wet-work runs, insurstions, or all out investigations.
I am not honestly expecting anyone to draw up an excel chart showing these ranges, but I would be interested in the forum's ideas on the subject. Think of it as Mr. Johnson training 101.
Thanks again for the help.
Street Sam
Shaman
Combat Mage
Decker
Rigger
Now, lets assume that this team survives a ten year career, and that in that career they went from untalented nobodies (new characters) to top-notch, top dollar professionals, and that their reputations and talents rose at a rate that each year they were 1/10th more talented and 1/10th more respected in the shadowrunning community. Remember, this is just to calibrate actual earnings, and yes, I realize that this cannot be used as a definitive fee-guide, as there are still other variables.
So, with this assumption, what should the first year version of this team (team, not individual) expect for a B&E Prototype steal that would be considdered moderately difficult for this team (Say, stealing the secret recipe for Ninja-Burger's new McRonin burger)? Then, what could the 10th year version of the same team expect from a B&E Prototype steal that would be considdered moderately difficult at that point in their careers (say, stealing Deus's CPU). How about on their 3rd year, 5th year, and 8th year? What about wet-work runs, insurstions, or all out investigations.
I am not honestly expecting anyone to draw up an excel chart showing these ranges, but I would be interested in the forum's ideas on the subject. Think of it as Mr. Johnson training 101.
Thanks again for the help.
Its going to take a hell of alot more than 5 Jackrabbits to make up 25K. Think about it this way. When you steal a car off the street it is a used vehicle. According to the Rigger 3 build rules that takes off .60 of the Markup factor on it (subcompact car's normal mark-up factor being 1.00). That means in the case of a jackrabbit 60% is taken off retail price before you even get the car to a fence. There are many things a fence/chop-shop have to do to prevent the car being traced back to them and to sell it off somewhere else. So to sell it to a fence at 20% of current legal value of the car might still be quite a bit, but let's just say you do sell it to a fence at 20% of current value.
New jackrabbit (E) costs 15,500 . Now take off the 60% for it being used. That leaves its current legal value at 6200. Now reduce it to the 20% you may be able to sell it to a fence for and you are only getting 1240 . And that is being generous.
Who the hell is going to want to buy a stolen Jackrabbit anyways? If you are willing to take the risks of owning a stolen car you either want something with class or some piece of shit that is dirt cheap because you can't afford jack.
New jackrabbit (E) costs 15,500
. Now take off the 60% for it being used. That leaves its current legal value at 6200. Now reduce it to the 20% you may be able to sell it to a fence for and you are only getting 1240 . And that is being generous. Who the hell is going to want to buy a stolen Jackrabbit anyways? If you are willing to take the risks of owning a stolen car you either want something with class or some piece of shit that is dirt cheap because you can't afford jack.
The aftermarket for stolen cars is not in whole cars but in parts... That's why the places you take the stolen cars to are called 'chop shops'. The component parts of a stolen car are much harder to id than the whoel stolen car...
So, jackrabits, the most common car on the road will have a large market for spare parts. The cars are broken down into parts and sold to mechanics who then pass them off as new or re-manufactured parts.
So stealing 5 jackrabits a month (a no risk activity) gets you enough for a middle lifestyle. Running, which is much more dangerous and requires much more skills and equipment better pay a lot more than stealing jackrabbits does...
If you can steal ford americars instead of jackrabbits, you make even more money...
So, jackrabits, the most common car on the road will have a large market for spare parts. The cars are broken down into parts and sold to mechanics who then pass them off as new or re-manufactured parts.
So stealing 5 jackrabits a month (a no risk activity) gets you enough for a middle lifestyle. Running, which is much more dangerous and requires much more skills and equipment better pay a lot more than stealing jackrabbits does...
If you can steal ford americars instead of jackrabbits, you make even more money...
Looking at some handy dandy crime statistics for Atlanta, GA there were around 1,975 cars stolen every month there in 2002.
Our all singing all dancing jackrabit stealing team of 4 guys, stealing 20 rabits a month (to make middle lifestyle) would only account for around 1% of the number of cars stolen than month.
Our all singing all dancing jackrabit stealing team of 4 guys, stealing 20 rabits a month (to make middle lifestyle) would only account for around 1% of the number of cars stolen than month.
| QUOTE (Edward @ May 21 2005, 04:16 PM) |
| The biggest time I can see these problems coming up is when a player wrights up a million nuyen character with 25K in monthly fixed expenses and then finds out the average income is going to be 10K per player per month. The GM really should be telling the players what there characters are used to earning before character creation. Of cause there can be player to GM discussion on this point to come up with a game style that will be enjoyed but that figure should be known. |
I completely disagree. The GM should be paying the characters an amount that makes sense. If the character's gear has that much upkeep, they're probably specialists or otherwise highly effective characters that will be similarly expensive to hire. Sure Riggers pay out orifices you didn't know existed for their vehicles and drones, but they command similarly impressive pay rates. Same with hermetic mages with elemental summoning costs.
If a character has that much upkeep without the abilities to make it worth paying them enough to keep up with it, they're going to quite naturally proceed to the poorhouse.
Edit: of course, if you mean the GM's going to only offer ganger-class runs at ganger-class pay no matter the abilities brought to the table, yeah, that should be something discussed beforehand. If the GM's going to roll with the characters, though, just go with what makes sense and balance will flow naturally.
~J
My take on it has always been if you set up a character to have huge expenses, but don't buy yourself the high-level contacts and infra-structure you need to maintain them, you set yourself up to lose your starting equipment. It's not my fault as GM if you bought a bunch of shirts and no hangers, dig?
Also, I let players bargin, to a point, and if they bargin well, they get more money. I tend to also give tiered rewards - "get the paydata" pays ten grand, "don't kill anybody" is a bonus, "don't be seen" is another bonus, "Don't make a copy and sell it to someone else" is a third, etc, so the good players get more money. Basically, the higher their percentage score would be in SC:Chaos Theory, the more of the max fee they get.
I make even top notch characters work cheaply for a new fixer or johnson at first. - - What the characters are trusted with by their associates is almost as much a factor, in my mind, as what they are capable of, so I see nothing wrong with "Hey, go strong arm Vincenzo, down at the Kit-Kat, he's been runnin' numbers outta the back and it's BS. You settle him good, I'll give youse a little walkin' around money, trow you a bone on sumpthin' else" type missions.
I like to screw with their headmeats a little, too - maybe offer them discount cyber from that company's specific line of toys, or have an Ares Johnson show up and pay them with 15K worth of Ares product instead of 10k cash. I also like to make them make a little B&E mini run for supplies, if they insist they need something key to a run that's a little exotic.
There's also a social factor-I think the players should be bound by the characters they chose to make. If you've seen the (mediocre) Shaft remake, you'll remember the character Peoples - he was a tough, elite, successful criminal, but he had that old "etiquette 1(3) (criminal)" going on, so he had to find someone else to extend his social reach. If they make a team that's all 1,000,000 cyber-butchers or a ritual circle unto itself, and no handlers,(I call this the "lecropolis" effect after that ATHF where one guy says he's there because "[he's] the only one that looks normal enough to go into town and buy food), they're going to have to roleplay a solution to the social problem they gave themselves. They chose to have characters with no social, financial, or practical acumen when they bought themselves that 6th die in submachine gun instead.
I actually had a party once that was three sammys and a mage. They ended up taking over a street-level BTL gang because they needed rides. See, none of them took a drive skill, none of them were social enough to get contacts to do it, they didn't want to continously pay drivers, and they couldn't just take the bus to jobs - so I told them they either took BS 'protection' type jobs until they got the karma for some 'life skills' or they figured out how their characters would actually solve that problem. After about ten OOG minutes of scheming, the mage (the 'smart' one) says "Why don't we just . . . make someone do it?" and we were off. The funny thing? They had an effing BLAST subverting the gang, so it all worked out.
They point being, those players built characters incabable of securing employment commensurate with their capabilities, characters really only fit to be someone else's employees - instead of making fleshed out characters, they made min-maxed thugs, so I didn't feel obliged to give them work that would pay their way.
If they really won't work for what I'm paying, to the point it turns into a member measuring contest between me and them, I offer them something worth huge bucks, and make sure they earn the fee. A run that will pay for a panzer doesn't seem like such a great deal anymore when you suddenly realize dealing with the opposition actually requires a tank.
I pay the players and let them fight about the split - shadowrun, to me, is a caper movie with trolls, and a good caper movie should have a fight over the split.
Also, I let players bargin, to a point, and if they bargin well, they get more money. I tend to also give tiered rewards - "get the paydata" pays ten grand, "don't kill anybody" is a bonus, "don't be seen" is another bonus, "Don't make a copy and sell it to someone else" is a third, etc, so the good players get more money. Basically, the higher their percentage score would be in SC:Chaos Theory, the more of the max fee they get.
I make even top notch characters work cheaply for a new fixer or johnson at first. - - What the characters are trusted with by their associates is almost as much a factor, in my mind, as what they are capable of, so I see nothing wrong with "Hey, go strong arm Vincenzo, down at the Kit-Kat, he's been runnin' numbers outta the back and it's BS. You settle him good, I'll give youse a little walkin' around money, trow you a bone on sumpthin' else" type missions.
I like to screw with their headmeats a little, too - maybe offer them discount cyber from that company's specific line of toys, or have an Ares Johnson show up and pay them with 15K worth of Ares product instead of 10k cash. I also like to make them make a little B&E mini run for supplies, if they insist they need something key to a run that's a little exotic.
There's also a social factor-I think the players should be bound by the characters they chose to make. If you've seen the (mediocre) Shaft remake, you'll remember the character Peoples - he was a tough, elite, successful criminal, but he had that old "etiquette 1(3) (criminal)" going on, so he had to find someone else to extend his social reach. If they make a team that's all
1,000,000 cyber-butchers or a ritual circle unto itself, and no handlers,(I call this the "lecropolis" effect after that ATHF where one guy says he's there because "[he's] the only one that looks normal enough to go into town and buy food), they're going to have to roleplay a solution to the social problem they gave themselves. They chose to have characters with no social, financial, or practical acumen when they bought themselves that 6th die in submachine gun instead. I actually had a party once that was three sammys and a mage. They ended up taking over a street-level BTL gang because they needed rides. See, none of them took a drive skill, none of them were social enough to get contacts to do it, they didn't want to continously pay drivers, and they couldn't just take the bus to jobs - so I told them they either took BS 'protection' type jobs until they got the karma for some 'life skills' or they figured out how their characters would actually solve that problem. After about ten OOG minutes of scheming, the mage (the 'smart' one) says "Why don't we just . . . make someone do it?" and we were off. The funny thing? They had an effing BLAST subverting the gang, so it all worked out.
They point being, those players built characters incabable of securing employment commensurate with their capabilities, characters really only fit to be someone else's employees - instead of making fleshed out characters, they made min-maxed thugs, so I didn't feel obliged to give them work that would pay their way.
If they really won't work for what I'm paying, to the point it turns into a member measuring contest between me and them, I offer them something worth huge bucks, and make sure they earn the fee. A run that will pay for a panzer doesn't seem like such a great deal anymore when you suddenly realize dealing with the opposition actually requires a tank.
I pay the players and let them fight about the split - shadowrun, to me, is a caper movie with trolls, and a good caper movie should have a fight over the split.
My current group of new players are just starting out, so they're the low men on the totem pole, but they don't mind. They realize it takes time to build up some street cred and get a reputation, but in the meantime the paychecks are gonna be a bit small. The thing is, they're all mundanes, so when they need a mage I decided not to give them a standard mage-for-hire, instead I set them up with a Free Spirit who isn't interested in cash, he's more interested in getting their karma. So if they need that magic that badly they have to part with some of it, so they try real hard not to have to use magic when they don't absolutely need it, but magic is so damn handy they're often really torn about it. Little does the dumb troll character know, but I had them go against an adept with a Force 4 weapon focus Katana, so after defeating the guy he's got about half a million nuyen just sitting there without realizing it while he finally just bought his first cell phone and still eats soy-ramen. Ah the things you can pull with new players who aren't familiar with the world yet, plus, that adept will come calling again one of these days to get his focus back.
Kagetenshi
The problem with paying an amount that makes sense is that you can wind up with a teem consisting of a rigger with 25K in expenses, in a teem with others that have low expenses and will happily do low risk low pay runs, its about making shore that the teem has people that do the same level of work.
Johnnycache, I disagree with you one a few points.
First you talk about having the infrastructure and contacts to maintain your equipment, knowing a mechanic doesn’t help if you cant pay for parts, and nearly every character has a fixer contact one would assume that fixer is his regular employer and knows the characters capabilities. Even if it’s a level 1 contact that just means he wont do you any favors, not that he thinks you’re a street punk that cant do jobs worth real nuyen.
A sliding pay scale is a good idear but its the average that matters much of the time
Top notch characters will have difficulty living on those cheep runs, and there starting fixer contact should be giving them better, only if they had to move base city would I expect them to have to prove themselves starting anywhere near the bottom, this should be strictly a part of a plot, not the default. If I had a regular employer that gave me 30K and was asked to do a job for 500 (what your arm bending is worth) I would refuse.
Alternative payment types can be risky, usually it will only be taken when the characters have enough money to pay there fixed expenses, to many characters 15K in gear is worth 5K because that is all they could sell it for and they need to pay the rent more than anything else.
Your 3 samys and a mage game is an extreme example, but I assume that each of them took one of there 2 free contacts as a fixer that knew the kind of jobs they where good at and such. That is the person that would be getting them jobs, without a good negotiator they will not be payed as well as they might and they may have some issues with legwork (although a Decker contact will take care of that for a share of the payment) but they will be getting jobs a teem of that type can do marching teems to jobs is what fixers are for,
Your teem with the car problems made one critical error, they should have purchased cars with auto nav (or even pilot modals) not great in vehicle combat but will get you to the meet safely, one of my favorite characters had a sports car with a drone pilot and voice activation, the character had no driving skill or rigging ability but the car would respond to commands like “take me to 23 market street” and “get me away from the shooting”, and as that character would say “whets the point of having a chick magnet car if you have to keep your eyes on the road”
Your right you should have to earn your pay but a fixer contact will know what you can do and set you up with jobs that mach your abilities and pay accordingly.
Edward
The problem with paying an amount that makes sense is that you can wind up with a teem consisting of a rigger with 25K in expenses, in a teem with others that have low expenses and will happily do low risk low pay runs, its about making shore that the teem has people that do the same level of work.
Johnnycache, I disagree with you one a few points.
First you talk about having the infrastructure and contacts to maintain your equipment, knowing a mechanic doesn’t help if you cant pay for parts, and nearly every character has a fixer contact one would assume that fixer is his regular employer and knows the characters capabilities. Even if it’s a level 1 contact that just means he wont do you any favors, not that he thinks you’re a street punk that cant do jobs worth real nuyen.
A sliding pay scale is a good idear but its the average that matters much of the time
Top notch characters will have difficulty living on those cheep runs, and there starting fixer contact should be giving them better, only if they had to move base city would I expect them to have to prove themselves starting anywhere near the bottom, this should be strictly a part of a plot, not the default. If I had a regular employer that gave me 30K and was asked to do a job for 500 (what your arm bending is worth) I would refuse.
Alternative payment types can be risky, usually it will only be taken when the characters have enough money to pay there fixed expenses, to many characters 15K in gear is worth 5K because that is all they could sell it for and they need to pay the rent more than anything else.
Your 3 samys and a mage game is an extreme example, but I assume that each of them took one of there 2 free contacts as a fixer that knew the kind of jobs they where good at and such. That is the person that would be getting them jobs, without a good negotiator they will not be payed as well as they might and they may have some issues with legwork (although a Decker contact will take care of that for a share of the payment) but they will be getting jobs a teem of that type can do marching teems to jobs is what fixers are for,
Your teem with the car problems made one critical error, they should have purchased cars with auto nav (or even pilot modals) not great in vehicle combat but will get you to the meet safely, one of my favorite characters had a sports car with a drone pilot and voice activation, the character had no driving skill or rigging ability but the car would respond to commands like “take me to 23 market street” and “get me away from the shooting”, and as that character would say “whets the point of having a chick magnet car if you have to keep your eyes on the road”
Your right you should have to earn your pay but a fixer contact will know what you can do and set you up with jobs that mach your abilities and pay accordingly.
Edward
Plus, cars are part of Lifestyle expenses (unless you have a Low lifestyle, and even that gets you a decent mass transit pass - you may wind up walking a few blocks, but you should be able to get to most areas). How many of the basic book archetypes have a vehicle skill? Not many. You don't really need a car skill unless you are involved in a high-speed chase.
Personally, I think GMs need to be clearer on what is or isn't "normal" pay in their world (filtered through what the character would know, of course). It would prevent a lot of misunderstandings if the GM added things like "That is a bit low, even for a snatch-and-grab, but you are expected to negotiate it up a bit."
Also, the whole group should coordinate a bit on the general power level and professionalism level of the group. It's not so bad if the street adept gets more money than he's used to, but it is bad if the rigger or face can't meet their normal expenses with what the group takes in. A bit of metagaming at character creation is fine, if it gets everyone on the same page as far as what to expect.
I think that, as professional criminals capable of pursuing other lucrative careers (legitimate or otherwise), doing dangerous work that also requires creativity, planning, and reliability - they should be making pretty big bucks. I understand the appeal of keeping the power level in check, but too much metagaming stinginess can lead to players who are bored and unmotivated because their characters are stuck in a perpetual rut. I think the life of a professional criminal should be more one of highs and lows - get a million one day, have your penthouse firebombed the next day.
Personally, I think GMs need to be clearer on what is or isn't "normal" pay in their world (filtered through what the character would know, of course). It would prevent a lot of misunderstandings if the GM added things like "That is a bit low, even for a snatch-and-grab, but you are expected to negotiate it up a bit."
Also, the whole group should coordinate a bit on the general power level and professionalism level of the group. It's not so bad if the street adept gets more money than he's used to, but it is bad if the rigger or face can't meet their normal expenses with what the group takes in. A bit of metagaming at character creation is fine, if it gets everyone on the same page as far as what to expect.
I think that, as professional criminals capable of pursuing other lucrative careers (legitimate or otherwise), doing dangerous work that also requires creativity, planning, and reliability - they should be making pretty big bucks. I understand the appeal of keeping the power level in check, but too much metagaming stinginess can lead to players who are bored and unmotivated because their characters are stuck in a perpetual rut. I think the life of a professional criminal should be more one of highs and lows - get a million one day, have your penthouse firebombed the next day.
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