During the past few games that I have had the opportunity to run I have noticed an increasing amount of amazing rolls among a few specific players in my group. Now, I don't know wether or not this is because I'm new to GM'ing and they don't think I'll catch on or wether they just don't want their characters to die. But it's really starting to get irksome...for example, I had this specific player up against a Nosferatu. It was a melee combat situation and somehow at the end of it all the character walked away without a scratch. Now, I would be inclined to just explain this as incredibly lucky dice rolling or good combat sense if this didn't seem to happen EVERYTIME! Also, this player seems to be rubbing off on another player in the group so having a fair and balanced game seems to go right out the window. I don't want to throw the group in an incredibly hard fight just to even the score because the rest of the players in the group are very honest about this sort of thing.
Just FYI, our table is not big enough to allow our entire group to play tabletop so we usually just sprawl throughout the living room. Does anyone here have any ideas or advice on how to help curb players "padding" the dice without alienating the players?

Check dice casually. Mix up where you sit so that you're near them sometimes. Use one of the other players as a plant to observe the dierolls. Wander the room sometimes instead of staying in one place.

Bring a shotgun to the game and kill them all, the bastards.

…What?

~J

Double-post them to oblivion.

~J

set up a die-rollin' spot in clear view--find a tray, or a few books of the same thickness that you can arrange into a rolling surface. you roll the dice, you do it on the die rollin' spot in clear view of everyone. anybody asks why, tell 'em it's to keep the game honest. no need to name names; the guilty ones, if there are any, will get the message.

i'd recommend against a big scene. cheating at RPGs is despicable, sure, but at least you've got players who are enthusiastic enough about playing to want to cheat. making a scene will drive them off--or worse, it won't drive them off, and they'll turn into a big fat wedge dividing your group.

I've tried that before actually. We had a player (this was D&D 1st ed BTW) that bought really small dice, and he would pick them up after every roll, unless it was a good one he'd actually roll. If he realyl rolled a 20, he'd shout out and point at it. If he was lying, he'd pick it up and say it quietly with a grin. So we bought him really big dice.

For a while, we did all roll in the middle of the table. It was a pain in the butt. But I did notice that a lot of people missed a lot more.

I'm actually in B's game, and have ran the games more than a few times as well. We both have the same problems with the same people. It's rough when the others are kicking trash because their magic dice work so well, and she's trying to keep up legitly.

Plan so far.... get a bigger table.

Like mfb says. we don't really want to make a scene. We're all good friends in and out of the game, so we'd rather deal with it subtley.

Could be they're cheating, and getting a bigger table is a good way to go not only for that reason but I've found if everyone's in the same general area they pay more attention.

On the other hand though they could have good dice, some of my dice are exceptional, and will roll over 4 all the time, these are my dice. Some of them roll really bad, these are the dice I let the GM borrow Others seem normal. They could just have some hot dice.

Let me put it this way, the last straw was when one of them rolled against 10 D with a 6 body, and scaled the damage to nothing. He was a new character, so I doubt his character had a higher then 7 combat pool

10D was after the armor reduction BTW

Say the players that you suspect them to cheat. Worked fine in my ED-group. After i made clear that i know of their cheating and won't believe (and treat) their high rolls as such, the rolls came back to become "normal".

But talk to them in a friendly manner, that's important imo.

Yeah. Unless you're very seriously righteously indignant about the whole thing, don't go in yelling and swinging and trying to bust up friendships or something. Most of the time (and it sounds like, in this case), gaming buddies are buddies first and foremost. Keep that in mind when you talk to them about it, whatever else it is you plan on saying/doing.

I've had a sneaking suspicion about some miracle drain resistance tests in my group..

In general I get really paranoid if anyone rolls dice, where I can't see them. - Especially when the GM does it.

Buy a dice caliper. Test any suspect die.

http://www.gamblersgeneralstore.com/Mercha...tegory_Code=21G

If you allow your players to use their own dice inspect each one before play. Put the unbalanced ones off to the side in a bucket clearly marked with the owner's name. This why they are removed from play but the owner can take them home and use them to cheat someone else.

Another sollution is to buy a large number of casino quality dice, test each for balance, and prohibit players from bringing their own dice.

Just ask to count every dice roll and say you are tracking probablilities for some gamer geeks at Dumpshock. Of course you will have to take notes and have multiple witnesses to the rolls for it to be accurate.

Then actually post a nights worth of die rolls and let us argue about it and get into flame wars, etc.

I've dealt with that problem. Heck, there are times when I was desperate enough to do it once or twice! (I"m sorry... I was young and foolish, and when it's cheat or lose your character, well... But now I GM so I'm expected to cheat ;P )

Some things to do...

While it's nice to have people roll before you get to them, that can lead to cheating. So you're going to have to decide between getting down on cheating or speed. I choose the former if it's necessary.

Rolls must be declared BEFORE they're rolled ('I am now rolling my dodge'). None of that practice roll thing unless they say so before rolling. Don't let them split hairs. Write out the letter of the law and stick to it with everyone (be fair).

Dice must be rolled in front of you (or your moderator, if you have one). You can't just roll them in front of another player and use them as a witness. If you do have a moderator, make sure it's someone you trust completely.

Define beforehand how dice must be rolled. Do they need to be shaken, or just picked up and dropped? Do you reroll dice which fall on the ground/under the couch, etc? Stick to these rules.

Subtly and in private (or through notes) indicate to the player your concerns (this may be inadvisable, depending on the player and how certain you are).

Make sure your players trust you as a GM, even if they don't trust the world. If they feel you won't let them get geeked by something small and inconsequential, they're less likely to feel the need to cheat.

Remember, you're the GM, cheat back! Don't make it obvious, but a few nudges now and again can make that particular player sweat a little (I do similar things for munchkins... The people who don't pay attention to their stats need the help, the ones who do need the challenge. But I do try to make sure the relative challenge is about equal.)

Enforce the rules equally for EVERYONE so the cheater doesn't think he's being picked on (even if he is).

If you have undisputable proof that someone is cheating, like Kag said, shoot 'em. Trust me, it's better that way.

My take on the whole number-of-dice/results-of-dice situation (i.e., cheating) is that players are at a game to have fun. At the end of the day, I educate my players in the rules of the game, but leave dice rolling to them. If a spineless moron needs to roll an extra die, or inflate the values of his roles, its his own pathetic sense of self-worth that's offensive to me, not his blatant cheating. Still, a player's gotta do what a player's gotta do.

That being said, I've had GMs who have dealt with players with ungodly magic dice by artificially inflating TNs for those players. It does not unbalance the game, if done properly--it just redistributes the probablility distribution which has been skewed by the magic dice.

Then again, as a going away present from a group of mine, I was once given a set of "cheat" dice with 2 20's (and no 1), 2 10's (and no 1), and 2 6's (and no 1). I fear that these evil dice are corrupting the good dice that they live with....

I have an understanding with my players: I don't fudge, you don't cheat. If you cheat, I get to fudge and I have a whole game universe to fudge with.

They don't cheat, I don't fudge. Things are good.

Don't tell anyone the TN, and have all your players tell you the results (i.e. I got three 1s, two 2s, four 3s, one 5, one 7, and two 326s).

If everyone has to tell you the rolls, and they are unaware of the TNs and modifiers you are applying, then it is harder to cheat. Those players that do cheat will get the message unless they are totally dense.

To be fair, do it to everyone.

I have to agree with Jray.

Tell everybody that you want to add a bit more suspense to the game so you aren't going to tell them their TN or exactly what they are resisting (i.e. don't tell them they just got hit with 10D damage, just say they got hit hard or some such). That way it won't look like you are making changes to game play specifically to counter cheating players.

It will slow down game play, but it will also seriously limit cheating.

I had a cheater. (it was blatantly obvious to everyone, but decorum prevented a major blow up)

first thing i did was stop giving target numbers. Course then he just "rolled" the highest number he could think of.

AT that point, I just added a Cheater modifer to all his TNs. AT that point he seemed to get about the same number of successes and failures as everyone else.

I've been there. Mostly while playing Exalted. Two different players getting spectacular rolls, one honestly and one cheating.

One would roll 10 successes on 7 dice (Yes that's possible in Exalted). He killed an uber rock elemental in one swing. Got 15 successes on 15 damage dice. Just a little less likely then one in a million.

He always sits on the other end of the table from me so I asked people to keep an eye on his rolls. They're always in the open and honest.

Another player was less then honest. He would sit with his arms around his roll, lean over it, and scoop it up real fast. Another player sitting next to him clued me in. I asked him to keep an eye on it and roll after roll the spotter would look at me and give me the "He's lying" head shake.

I took the player aside, said I observed some less then honest rolling coming from his end of the table, and to cut it out. He said he was nervous about his character dieing (He had been playing this character for atleast six months at that point and was really attached. He's accumulated over 250xp now and has been playing him for almost a year and a half.) so he was fudging; but, said he would stop.

That was that.

I like the "stop telling players the TNs" move - that will probably work.

If it doesn't clue him in that you're not sure he's reporting his results accurately.

If that doesn work, cheat back. Increase all his TNs and add successes to his opponent's rolls to balance things out again.

Just play his character's interactions cinematographically. You know, diceless, but reasonable. Let him roll, but declare what happens based on the story, not his rolls.

One thing I always wanted to try (haven't played in a meatbod game in a *long* time) related to mfb's finding an open spot to roll is to set up a big plastic salad bowl in the center of the room and have people roll in it. It's more of a beer-and-pretzels style of gaming, 'cause you'll end up with people chucking dice from all over the room at the bowl, but it might be interesting for a lark.

We have a guy who does this and has for years. He is doing one of two things:
a) using a weighted die (he has mentioned the microwave trick)
b) not rolling properly..ie "flopping" holding the die with the 1 up and trying to turn the die over on the table to help it land on a 20 or a 6.

He is also the kind of guy who freaks out if he rolls anything under a 15 on a d20 or a 4 on a d6.

One thing that helps is to use a dice cup and watch when they pick up the dice. I'm so poor at doing math in my head that I have to sit there and stare at my result for 10 seconds adding it up so if i picked up my dice real fast my friends would probably know I was fudging.

If you have a computer in the room or a laptop you could download a dice rolling program, say something about game speed and suspense and do all the rolls yourself. I personally don't like it and it puts more work in your hands, but just a suggestion.

How sad. If a person's identity is so wrapped up in how they roll on any given die, then they are probably fragile and need to be trated gently and fairly. Making everyone roll the same is probably your best bet.

And maybe you need to get the balance tester mentioned earlier in the thread.

Microwave trick?

I have never really had to deal with a cheater when it comes to dice rolls .
Usually if it is a suspenseful moment in the game we all stop and look at the dice rooting for the roll.We all hope he makes the roll to save the day .


I have dealt with a few players that fudge numbers during creation , but that is easy to stop . Just be active in creation with them and show them beyond any shadow of a doubt you can min/max the system better than they could ever hope to .

One thing I like to do is pay attention to the rolls, and then say something like "Hey Player_01, I think you may have accidentally counted a five as a six on that last roll, slow down on the pickup a little bit." They won't get mad cause to do so would tip everyone off that they're cheating. Another thing to do is bring up cheating in general terms and point out how lame you'd have to be to cheat in a roleplaying game (though you might want to avoid any meaningful looks while you're saying it).

-Joe

Sure, money-wise it is easy to screw up a long column of additions and subtractions, thats why we have accountants. But consistently rolling 15s on your 2 skill +2 combat pool rolls is highly unlikely and with less chances to screw up your addition than a gear list.

Hey ya'll.. thanks for all the help. Unfortunately, the player in question gets very uppity at any change in the status quo. I'm going to start keeping the TN's to myself since that seems to be the concurrent opinion and I'm hoping he doesn't whine about it too much. Thanks again!

Btw, can someone explain what this "microwave trick" is?? *utterly confused*

Yeah, Yahtzee cups and a big table in front of God and everyone is best.

Heres what I do, and it seems to work.

I am a big fan of Axis and Allies. So I always pull the game out and use the lid (which is huge) as a dice box. Put it in the center and everyone rolls in it. It has a really deep wall so even if they throw hard it is unlikely that it will come out.

To be honest I have cheated in the past. But there were extenuating circumstances

Once it was because the GM was being a dork and not telling a very dramatic story. He kept making everything so easy. So I started subtracting 5 from my dice rolls and failing a lot. Nothing like failing three climbing checks in a row to get the whole table standing up and throwing dice trying to save you as you plummet to your death.

The other time was the GM's fault again. I was playing a Ranger in D&D and I had spent all my points and feats so that I was really good with a bow. But the GM didn't consider me the "main character" so no matter what I rolled I would always mysteriously miss when shooting at a specific mob. Only the "main character" could save the day, or hit the main mob.

So I started fudging my rolls on everything else just to piss him off.

You are the anti-cheater. Or are you a game assasin?

I don't have any problems with cheating in my group, but one thing we do might help you out. When someone rolls a test, they leave all their successful dice on the table. This makes it easier for me to keep track of their number of successes when comparing opposed rolls. Using ranged combat as an example: The player rolls 4 successes with 6 dice on their attack test, they leave the 4 successes sitting out in front of them. Then I roll the NPC's dodge, and he gets 2 successes. I ask the player to remove 2 of the 4 dice sitting in front of them. Then I roll the NPC's body test, and compare the remaining successes.

You can say your doing this to make it easier for you to keep track of opposed successes, but in the mean time it gives you or the players sitting next to the suspect time to check out his rolls.

Hope this helps.

The problem is that they are spread out and not sitting at a table, so everyone rolls on what is available.

Right, that's the way we play too, but someone in the group is usually sitting close enough to see the rolls. I don't think anyone would be very comfortable leaving their dice out for people to see if they were misrepresenting them.

LOL...OMG..laughing too hard!! hehe *falls off chair*

Sorry..that last post from Fist3.0 was supposed to be from me. Damn sharing of computers! Damn sneaky ppl logging on while I'm not looking.

Another way for cheating to become less of a problem is to allow it.

Just ask for everyone to roll one at a time and in the open for everyone to see. Do most of your roll in the open tough, to instigate a climate of trust. It's more fun that way, anyway. Nothing like a spectacular failure or success at a critical moment in full view of everyone to get a rise out of the room. It's, oh, about a fourth or a fifth of the fun IMO.

It's not even hard to enforce. A simple rule of "No roll made out of GM sight counts". Who is gonna protest and on what ground? Any protest is countered by "Why don't you want me to see your roll?".

---

Plan B : I had a player who named his PC Plan B. It was a big troll wielding big guns. Because whenever Plan A failed, it was down to Plan B...

Plan B stands for Plan "boom". heheehee he heeeee

just ask her


" I chop the top off of the case"

This will all make more sense when she gets around to responding.

Plan B became our group name after several runs in which we were never able to make it out of the building or whatever w/out firing some sort of weaponry. We could make it in just fine, we could do the job just fine, we could even make it partially out the door just fine... but there was always that last second drone or security guard. Our mission completion rate is 100% though. Gotta love that. Anyway, that's when the whole "Plan B..when you care enough to send the second best" came into play. I swear, it's going to be one a t-shirt one of these days.