Hi all, I was just wondering what everyone thought was the weakest/most flawed part of char. gen? Wether it is unrealistic, clunky, makes no sense, etc...

For me, the big problem I have is the Contact system. This is absolutely horrible and makes no sense in a realistic setting. Out of everything they may change in SR4 I hope, hope, hope it is this.

200,000 for a friend?

starting with only 2 level 1 contacts?

What world did the game designers live in when they thought this up?

By this standard, me, a normal guy in his twenties would have to have 1,000,000+ just in contacts starting out, just to cover my friends for life. to cover all my friends from high school and college that I have right now.

Anyone and everyone knows more then two people casually.

How socially retarded to they imagine these Shadowrunner's to be?

My girlfriend and I have been going out for three years now, we will probably get married soon, I consider her a "friend for life" but I didn't spend $200,000 to "get her". She is works in finances at a multinational bank, so she would be considered a "contact". I have a friend that I have knowen since high-school who I hang out with all the time who is a bouncer, again a "contact" and also a "friend for life" but no, I didn't spend $200,000 "gaining his friendship" ether.

That's not including other friends, buddies from work, and people I know and family. My brother does computer networking and security (how much does useful non-dependant family cost in shadowrun?)

Anyways, contacts in shadowrun needs major work. At this time I use a tottally home made house rule system in my game, because the system in the books is compleatly unuseable in any realistic sense.

I think they should maybe make the contacts less useful, but give you more of them, at least it makes it seem like the Shadowrunner isn't a compleate loner and social loser to start with.

How about you guys? What do you think needs work/changes/ etc... in the char. gen system?

That's why it's called "Resources" during SR3 chargen; it's not actual cash outlay, but symbolic of favours, time invested, etc.

And of course, Level 1 contacts -- which will be by far the most common ones for most characters -- are only 5,000¥. For the price of one Friend For Life, you can know 40 contacts.

I think it's also important to remember that Contacts are "game usable contacts" -- I wouldn't make a character pay for the guy at the hot dog stand that he visits a couple times a week, since the chances of him being "useful" in game terms are pretty low, and likely very situational. That is, he may have witnessed a crime in the area that the PCs are investigating, but he's not going to be supplying them with black market weapons from the back of his hot dog stand. That said, if he is a black market vendor, then it may be more appropriate for him to be a paid contact.

Personally, I look at it this way. It's a game APROXAMTING reality. I follow something alog the lines of what Adam said for contacts, and the rest we just go with. You're never going to get it perfect. I like the skill setup of SR3 better than 2, although some things I disagree with. I guess the biggest problem I have is that most people have some random skill, but no one ever takes them in char creation. Like Taiwanese pastery.
Personally, I think it comes pretty close.


Edit:
On second thought, simplifing the rules for building decks and vehicles could be nice....

Yeah, I gotta agree. For a game system, it does a better job than most of recreating reality. It has its flaws, but they're easily overlooked in lieu of the entire context of the character creation process. About the only game that gets closer to reality is Rolemaster, but that can actually be a pain in the ass to make a character. So much so, that the process itself is the flaw.

I like the SR system. No complaints here.

For me, when you ask what's the "weakest part of character creation," I prefer to look at it as "what part of character creation do you think has the poorest design?"

For me, that would definitely be Resource allotments. I absolutely loathe buying equipment, contacts, spells, and all those other things with my Shadowrun characters -- it's just so tedious and requires too much bookkeeping for my tastes. Sad to say, but I've always liked how games such as World of Darkness's Storyteller system handled a character's resources. You have a set financial level and can pretty much assume you have access to anything you need within that level, then only list the items that were vitally important (without having to worry about how much cash you have to spend to do so).

But that's so very alien to the way Shadowrun was designed that it would be a major pain to try and incorporate it into the game at this point, especially since cash is a primary driving force for most characters.

It's still the "weakest" part of character creation for me, though.

The exchange of money for contacts at char gen is a mechanic, in most cases that is wealth that your character never actually had and is intended to be for game balance purposes only.

The problem is that this balance mechanic has nothing to do with the abilities of the person. A street rat you helped out when he was in troupe and can keep you posted on the gangs of Redmond and will take significant risks to do so because you saved his life (level 2 contact) is worth more than a street dock with an Alfa clinic that knows you just well enough to give you access to the clinic and sell you wear but wont be doing you any favours with it (level 1 contact). To my mind the second will be far more valuable.

What this creates is a situation where having living parents that care about you and know your alive (level 3 contacts), regardless of there ability to help you out of any trouble, will cost nearly half of the maximum starting nuyen

With street urchin as a contact type there isn’t much that is less useful, people wag thru toungs in front of hotdog vendors all the time, he wont do much for you himself but he could have valuable information, I wouldn’t say buying a hotdog 4 times a week (you and 500 others) would make him a contact willing to sell information to you but if you also knew him from the gun club (where he practises to defend himself if he is robed) you might get something from him, I think he would be useful in the same limited ways as a street urchin but in a different part of town.


The problem is that just about any profession can be useful to a shadow runner to a greater or lesser degree even doting grandparents, retired and living a sedentary life can hide you from authorities for a time, provided they lie well (witch is likely given the situation) there should be a difference in price between a contact wiling and able to provide you with a bolt hole when you need it and a contact wiling and able to mobilise a mercenary teem to free you with discounted payment to be payed when you can (my brother is the leader of a mercenary teem).

Edward

The main problem I had with character creation before the advent of BECKs was the difference between characer generation and advancement, this difference let to all sorts of gamey exploits of the chargen system where everyone would max their skills with skill points (ie take 3 skills at six rather than 6 skills at 3) because high level skills were much more costly after character gen. BECKs makes character generation and advancement much more 'fair' in that there is no real way to exploit differences in teh char gen and post gen advancement systems.

I also have probelms with the limits placed on starting characters. There is no magical starting point where all 'starting characters' begin, so the hard limitations seem rather silly, plenty of times, the advice for people making characters is 'get X after the first run' since you can't get it in character generation... Why didn't the character get is after the run just before this one?

Of course, I only have real 'trouble' with powerful characters when they are powerful compared to the rest of the party, not to the world at large...

To be fair, most character creation systems don't follow similar rules as they do for character advancement, and every single one I can think of has hard limitations on it. Even BeCKS (such as not being able to join a magical group or initiate). EDIT: And trust me, even BeCKS can be exploited, it's just exploited in different ways.

It might be possible to re-design the contact system so that the cost of contacts is based on a combination of ratings : how much they like you, their power level, etc (like the enemies and hunted flaws), so that Billy, the squatter fiend for life dosen't cost you the equivalent of a set of wired-2.

Yes, I don't like most character creation systems.

SJ's In Nomine
Champions
BECKS

Surprisingly char creation in the new D&D is very close to the 'recommended method' of character advancement... So you can replace your recently dead lvl 5 fighter (or whatever) with a new lvl 5 character and not come up with all sorts of ways to make your new guy uber.

[edit]
Any exploits in BECKS are esentailly also present in the advancement system.

This is one of the reasons that I didn't like the linking of karma costs to attributes, in that it unbalances a metagame rule while trying to balance an 'in game rule'

IMHO, ideally all 'metagame' rules should be balanced (like character advancement), but all 'in game' rules need not be. So I don't have too much trouble with the smartlink (highly unbalanced 'in game') but have plenty of trouble with stat linked karma costs (slightly unbalanced 'metagame')
[/edit]

I'm not crazy about the build point costs for elves, compared to dwarves. And yes, the two starting contact thing bugs me, too.

but i would say, MOST people you know could be useful to a point as a criminal, whether it be as a safe house, or just "forgetting" where you're going to be or if you've seen them around, which is mostly what a level 1 contact is for, and a bit of information.

I like the idea of a sliding scale, similar to the SSG housing builder. Things like, how well you know them, and they know you, how much they know about their work, and what it is they do, as usefullness to a runner. (sure, he might be the damn best hotdog vendor in seattle, but that information is likely to be un-useful to a runner.

For me, I think contacts should symbolize how much the person would do for you as a criminal.

My rating 1 contact with my sister is nice, but relatively useless in terms of anything more than "Oh, I didn't know he did this. He probably doesn't, you cops are wasting your time." This also may count as one-time favor things, since you use them and in general they go bye-bye.

Rating 2 is more a criminal contact. A fixer, a weapons dealer who you know can come through on a normal basis, that's a good contact.

Rating 3 contacts are the type you can trust, who will really help you. This weapons dealer might have special connections to get X, Y or Z and when looking for stuff in that area, the street index/availability is reduced or even ignored. APDS ammo is hard to find, but if you know someone who has great supply of it, he might just charge you and hand it over, no roll necessary.

This would at least justify a 200,000 expendature on a contact. If it allows you to drop the availability on ammunition by four, its probably worth it. No, definitely is. At the same time, it severely cuts down on the gear you can start with, so it mostly balances out.

one thing I wonder about is who makes cyber weapons. really, what use is some of this stuff. i mean if your super-spy needs an oral slasher, make one custom. I don't get it (I like it, but I don't get it)

I've never understood it myself. Especially items like Kid Stealth Legs that are actually named after a shadowrunner. I'd love to see cyberware in the core rules that were actually practical and plausible for commercial production (Datajacks, Cyberlimbs, etc.), not stuff added in just because it's "cool" or something a runner would want (such as Spurs), even though it makes zero sense for it to be there. That, and military/security/corporate-grade implants like Vehicle Control Rigs and Wired Reflexes.

Having only 2 contacts for free is a big flaw imo. I like the building point chargen as a whole, but for a character with a decent background story i usually give away some more contacts for free. I.e. having served in an army for 5 years or so lets you get away with a few buddys and contacts i guess. Not every connection needs to be a criminal one, don't forget that.

Well VCRs aren't exactly millitary-grade. Apparently ever since the Awakening the sudden appearance of astral space has made all but the most basic vehicle maneuvers incomprehensible without that bit of cyber; you need a VCR just to drive a cab these days.

As for the free contacts issue, I can kinda see where that's coming from, particularly in large groups everyong having a dozen contacts can be a paperwork nightmare for the GM, especially if everyone insists on contacting everybody on every run. I suppose though that I'd have made it (2*Cha) level 1 contacts instead. Seems to make more sense to me: charismatic people attract more friends than social deadweight.

In a perfect world, there's three basic grades of implants I'd like to see.

Military/Security/Corporate: This would include the high-end items like Wired Reflexes, Vehicle Control Rigs, Smartlink-2s, and Tactical Computers. Characters should have very limited access to these types of implants at character creation, and acquiring them after creation should be equally as difficult. Some of the more illegal items, like Retinal Duplication and Synthetic Fingerprints, would also be found in this category but would be highly restricted (generally only existing due to the intelligence community), but still possible to get your hands on if you have the right connections and enough money.

Commercial: This would include all of your run-of-the-mill implants that normal citizens would be interested in, or at least have available if needed. Replacement Cyberlimbs and organs, hunting-level Smartlinks, Headware Memory, and Datajacks. Most Bioware would fit in this category, too. Availability should be average, and prices should be reasonable and practical.

Street: These would be jury-rigged implants that you could only find on the streets, most of which would be unreliable but (usually) cheap and easy to get for a shadowrunner. It would include implants like Boosted Reflexes, Cyberholsters, and Spurs. Boosts to other implants, like cranking up the strength on a Cyberlimb would also fall into this category. Even the weird crap like modifying standard Cyberlegs into Kid Stealth legs would make sense if this type of category existed.

I think that would be a more sensible way to handle implants myself, possibly even getting rid of the whole Used/Alpha/Beta series of categories and instead treating each of the above categories that way in regards to their Essence costs. Then they could include a "Personalized" option or something that would be the equivalence of Delta, basically allowing you to get something at half the Essence but four times the cost.

And just think about how much easier it would be to customize character creation for a specifc type of campaign. Now you could just say "only Street implants and maybe one or two Standard implants" for your ganger-level campaign instead of having to come up with all kinds of strange exceptions and limitations on buying gear.

But I dunno. I'm just rambling so I'll shaddup now.

hmm, well first of all, given grid guide, i dont get where you get that you need a VCR to even drive a cab Blonde, as GG will do it for you for the most part, and the only time you need to make any driving test is if you're performing a stressfull maneuver, so i dont think a VCR is really needed for that. Also, putting a VCR in the mili spec category basically eliminates riggers from games, atleast from the start. Maybe thats what Doc is trying to do, however.

On the contacts issue, actually, i think setting contacts=to charisma would be fine. if you roll up a total loser (chr=1) it should be some sort of negative, being that you've only got that ONE person that even associates with you enough to call you a friend of some sort.

No, I'm not trying to "eliminate riggers from the game." I just don't think its sensible to have a VCR as a common everyday commercial implant when its the type of thing you'd (realistically) only find in the hands of jet fighter/commercial airline pilots or corporate security network personnel. Your common everyday person shouldn't have to rely on anything more than a datajack.

Now changing the rules so that a VCR isn't a "must have" for a rigger-type character is something I'm all for. It should be a very nice advantage, but not the requirement it is under the current rules. Even including a simple street-level boost for Datajacks would be a great idea. But an actual VCR, much like Wired Reflexes, should be the top-of-the-line implant that a rigger-type would want to strive to acquire, not be forced to have from the get-go.

Wow, I never thought about it that way before, but it makes SO much sense. On one end you have the cheap, unreliable, not-efficent, but still deadly (and thus not legal) stuff. In the middle is the public acess type stuff which is on the whole legal to get. And on the other is the mil spec "dear god thats expensive' stuff. Sr4 anyone?

Aku had another good point about possibly a more granulated scale for contacts. I LOVE that idea, because lets face it, I dont think my L3 mechanic contact (who is really only that buddy-buddy with me because I refer him to other people too) will get in the way of hot lead for me.

Doc, sorry, what i said didn't come out quite right, but as written right now,t hats what removing the VCR from chargen would do. If there could be some alternative, I would be all for the idea.

i think the first step, would be letting you, with a data jack, plug into an RC deck, and allow you to hop into drones. Set the response increase to +1/grade of 'ware that the jack is? (+1 for normal, +2 for beta, +3 for alpha?) Note, thats a flat increase, not a die increase, leave that to the VCRs themselves.

Finally, Lindt, i'm not sure which point you're referring too, if its about contacts=charisma, it's not wholly my idea, Blonde sugested chr*2, but that gives even the lowliest, most unattrivtive, un sociable person two friends, which my method prevents, and, i'd like to think, removes a slight bit of min maxing.

As to the VCR being needed to drive a cab thing, I was mostly being facetious. The thing is, those implants, for whatever reason, are considered extremely common, and are actually pretty cheap compared to much of the cyberware with comparable benefits. I've little idea why, but it would kinda make sense for companies to pay for anyone in the trucking or cabdriving industry to get at least a VCR 1; those things are cheaper than the cab you'd have to replace if the guy got in an accident, and VCR 2s are generally cheaper than a big rig plus cargo. I'd guess an insurance company would give huge discounts for drivers with rigs, which is why they'd be so common by then. Plus I bet that various governments would give a subsidy to those that do get a rig; fewer accidents means less money spent on transit cleanup and repair.

For contacts == 2*Cha I admit it was a quick fix. I guess it would be better to build up contacts rather like the SRC builds up enemies: with at the least Motivation, Power, and Knowledge levels. You'd get a certain number of free points, possibly based on Cha, and afterwards they'd have a sliding cost scale rather like the SSG's lifestyle rules do. At least that's what I'm thinking.

I'd prefer having contacts paid out of a 'contact' pool, not based on Cha, as this would tend to 'double value' Cha. Int is already 'double valued' because if provides karma for 'character skills' so you see plenty of characters with inflated ints, because they want to know who plato was, and do algebra, and know about thier favorite TV shows, and still have some 'runner useful' character skills.

but would they really prevent accidents under normal driving conditions? you aren't making a driving test going to the stuffer shack, so how is there a chance for an accident?

I agree having the build like SSg is a good thing, but since you aren't able to buy contacts after chargen, would something like that really be useful?

Well, the system would provide guidelines for what exactly a new contact can do for you, and how much they like you. Right now all fixers are created equal...

that or people would do stupid things at twice the speed.
I curently rate fixers and dealers by how many points of availability they can aquire for a period of time (a really good network can get lot of stuff without taking heat, whereas a lesser one might get burned if they try to get too much stuff), and I got rid of Cha rolls for aquiring stuff. it makes no sense for a person to talk a salesman into sellling to them (although I've had to do it before) convinsing them they arn't a cop sure, but that's only if they aren't a contact (L2 or 3)
having a street/civilian/corp level for cyber would definily cut down on the cyber use (not a bad thing) it would be much more plausable that way, I'm sure Ares doesn't make random cyber weapons for the illeagle market (but then again tabbaco companys have been charged with smuggling their own products) You could also aplly that to all gear. (why hollowpoints are harder to get than EX I don't know) or make street manufacured gear that is cheaper but less realiable than the real deal. (oh look, two whole new sorce books) looks like i've mearly succseded in making it more complex, I'll stop now.

I don't like how the cyberware system is so piecemeal. There is just certian things that a cybered indivisual should have, and having to select them all and pay the essence for them sucks. Let's face it, when you go out and buy a car IRL, do they list such features as headlights, windshield wipers, seats, door locks, . . .? Na, it's just part of being a car. I have alwies felt that the little things, data jacks, image link (a connection to the optical centers of the brain), opticam (not an actual camera, but a connection to the optic centers of the brain) , the darn thing that lets you 'think' into a radio, a small amount of head space memory, . . .you know, the small usefull things that won't unbalance a game should just be part of being a cyborg. (Kinda like how being a Mage or a shawman openes up a whole package of abilities and powers besides spells).

Treating cyberware as a more intergrated proccess makes sence. Example, a data jack is capable of transporting an indivisual (with the aid of a deck) into the VR world of the matrx, providing total visual, audio, and tactle input to the brain. So would it not be a simple software issue to use the same hardware to allow for the capture of sensory input, or for the overlay of an image over the user's field of vision? And since a indivisual in the matrix can 'talk' and 'hear' while there, how much of a stretch would it be for this hardware to also comunicate directly with an implanted or attached (via the data jack) trancever, allowing the cyborg to think what he wishes to send over the comm?

The body is a complex intergrated system, shouldent the cyberware be also. (of corse, this would make upgrading and adding cyber much more costly and troublesom) "Well, your CPU is running too old of an OS for that new cyber spleen you want, we will have to upgrade that too." (basicly adding stuff after charictor gen would cost more the more cyber you have)

I like it wagnern. it makes that "windfall run" a little harder on the cybered characters, always a good thing. and it also means that a starting char can just go "I want to do this" and not find out three sesions in that he read the flavor text wrong and can't use his display link to read the map from his headware mem.
(oh you've got a 'raku setup, we only have gear to upgrade ares' stuff... MwaHAHAHA)

Let me put this in perspective .
Out of all of those friends you have how many of them are really "lifelong friends" as you put it . I just turned 30 this year . Out of all of my "Lifelong friends "in high school and around that age I have spoken to two of them in the last three years .
Lets look at this another way . How many people can you call on when you are in a jam ? I mean a real jam .

Say something like ....
It is 3:38 AM on Sunday morning . You are knocking on your friends door covered in blood and scuffs from an obvious struggle. You "friend" answers the door and you look at him and say " I couldn't take it anymore . I killed her."
How does your "lifelong friend " react?

Or how about you tell a "lifelong friend" He raped my little sister but because he is the Sheriff's son he is walking on it .

Or maybe " I found out the mob was using the bar as a money front."


What are your lifelong friends going to do ?

That is the difference between the people you know and the people a runner knows .

I actually have friends like that. We have a flexible moral character about some things.

Me and my GM have been bouncing around the idea of how to implimnet 'integrated cybersystem' consept. The current leader is if someone buys 4 (3?) or more essence of cyber at gen, they are a cyborg, and the implants are invasave and integrated enough that they will recieve some cyberware essence cost free. The current list of these toys is small, basickly the stuff mentioned before. As a counter ballance we are thinking of upping the difficluty of finding upgrades (compatability issues) and having a surcharge based on how much essence you have left (the more ware you have the more compatability issues.) We are also toying with requiring constand grade amonght all the enhancements, but that could be too much.

On one hand I hate having to do all kinds of crazy bookkeeping during character creation. On the other, I like the "piecemail" way cyberware is handled, as it gives you more control over just how and what kind of build you're going for. I do assume that the "interconnectively rules" are a given for all types of builds, however... can't stand those stupid rules.

Personally, i think there should be packages of cyber available, for some of the less essential things, such as a communications package, with radio, headware, and the subvocal mike, and maybe the thingy that lets you keep multiple channels open, for a reduced essence cost than peicemeal would be. and other sets like that.

Quick Gripes on Shadowrun Chargen -

1. The rules for starting with martial arts are a total rip off. 2 skill points for a maneuever? WTF?

2. The inability to start with more specialization in a skill. I wish it was possible to start with, say, 4( or similar things.

3. The equipment ... ARRRRRRRGH. I've toyed with various ideas for making the book keeping in game go away.

a. One thought I toyed with was that runs did not pay out in discrete amounts. Instead, every negotiation would come down to "I'll wire the usual amount to your bank account". In game mechanical terms, this would boost your characters Resource Rating. As long as you had the correct contacts you would be assumed to automatically have available any and all equipment equal to your Resource Rating or less. You wouldn't roll anything, you'd just say "Ok, I'll bring 10 hand grenades on this run..." and that'd be it. I never really fleshed this idea out, although I should.

b. Change the general 'rules' of Shadowrun. The Johnson would generally give the runners what he thinks they'll need on the run, plus the usual paycheck. Some of the equipment might need to be given back. This would mean players are a lot more care-free about general equipment.

c. Have the runners always work for some corporation or other agency with a large, blank check. This means they don't stress out about every single last freaking nuyen. They just GET whatever they need.

As for actual char gen - I have a default set of random equipment that all of my chars use, like tactical comm units, cuffs, etc. I just copy/paste that in, add whatever is special about this char, and voila. Similar thing with cyberware. I typically use 'default arrays' where I've pre-calculated out how much essence and nuyen XYZ will cost and then just edit from there.

4. The total jacking over that is the costs for starting with spirits conjured. Especially for shamans.

My personal problem with chargen in SR3 is the really small list of active skills. I know that any skill you can think of can be added to the game, but for new players, a good comprehensive list of active skills would be more useful.

Tim

I like characters to scrounge for every nuyen. I don't run street level campains, more like middle class, where for the first while at least the characters have to think their way around because they spent all the last run's cash on medical bills and so they couldn't afford to fully refit. most of my PCs are pretty freelance, and pinning them to a corp would just make them another wage slave. I also prefer to do shopping between sessions, players get ahold of me , tell me what they want, and we work it out, then they have the gear for the next run (dependant on how long it takes to get) and it doesn't waste in game time. but I guess that depends on how you look at the SR universe. I figure there are about 100,000 "shadowrunners" in seattle, 10,000 of those are better than just freelance thugs and maybe 1000 are actual skilled urban mercinaries. all depends on your perspective.
I tell palyers to make them up, generally the first charracter only lasts a few runs, or I give them the karma to add things they think of later that I like. hence the Mciver skill. based on Int, no specialiations, a roll of the skill at anytime TN4 and the GM decides what the character could possibly do with the things they have available. (like resting a plant pot on a door latch to act as an alarm, as well as to set off a grenade, or to melt polishing wax to make imprint molds, or how to make an effective but cude submachine gun from a pen, a box of light pistol ammo, and a roll of duct tape.

Krazy, i was with you until that last example, god i hope that was sarcasm.

but getting to thecontacts issue, would anyone be interested in me attempting to make a flash contact builder? My idea was to make a list from Knowledge, Loyalty, and Accquisistion/negotiation as the defining factors, at somewhere between 3 and 6 points each (so a 9-18 point total), take that into 200K to see how much each point should be worth, and go from there. Unfortunately, i'm rather craptacular with any coding so it may not work, but heres to hoping.

And i just noticed, i don't see the actual costs for "purchasing" a contact at chargen anywhere, i had to reference the NSRCG for the cost...

Thanks adam, I finally did see it a little while ago, it's what i get for trying to look something up right after i wake up. I wasn't expecting it to be in a chart, so i was focusing on the silly things called words...

yes the last one was a little silly, I admit. but sometimes you just need some odd silliness in the darkness and grit.