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Shadow
Shooting.

Shooting someone who is standing still and giving you time to exercise proper shooting techniques is a piece of cake. Now shooting them while there running, and your diving backwards over a hover car is a different matter entirely. It is assumed that when your character fires a weapon at an opponent you are not aiming.

If you wish to aim you must stand still, and make no attempt to dodge for the phase in which you fire. Aiming gives you 1 of 2 benefits. It is an either or, you cannot get both. You can nullify one of your opponents beneficial TN modifiers OR you can make a called shot. Not both.

Called Shots.

If you wish to make a called shot you must aim for one simple action. During this action you cannot dodge or move faster than walking. You may crouch or lie prone. It is assumed that you are shooting for center mass. If you wish to shoot any other part of the body other than the upper Torso you must declare it. The further you get away from the Upper Torso the more successes you need.

Head, shoulders, lower torso: 2 Successes.
Arms: 4 Successes
Hands: 6 Successes
Upper Legs: 2 Successes
Lower Legs: 4 Successes
Feet: 6 Successes

What this means that if you wish to shoot someone in the head you must roll a minimum of 3 successes. The first two successes are used just to hit the head and are discarded and not counted toward any tests.
Eyeless Blond
"nullify one of your opponents beneficial TN modifiers "
Does this mean I can aim for a Simple Action and negate the partial cover +4 modifier? Doesn't sound right to me.

By the way, you may want to mention the benefits of each "type" of called shot. I think there should be additional effects if any wound is dealt, rather than the increased Damage Level thing we have currently. How about torso and Head maybe increases Power of the attack by 1 or 2, arms and hands would provide an additional +1 or +2 wound TN modifier to actions using the affected arm/hand, upper legs, lower legs, and feet redoce the character's Quickness by 1, 2, and 3 for purposes of movement; all, of course, listed respectively.

On the other hand, let's stay away from armor negation. It makes for clunkiness; just leave armor as some sort of mysterious protection that hovers over the entire body regardless of hit location; it's easier that way and leads to less confusion with people calculating how much armor their feet have by themselves.

And lower the Threshold on hands and feet to 5 successes. That's already insane right there; no need to make it worse.
Krazy
that's pretty complex and not terribly realistic. for most pistol combat 5m you should be point shooting which does not require aiming, and it is quite easy to get a head shot in (RL even after two shots to the chest.) and anything farther out you are aiming unless you are really good. I always assume that chars are shooting for center of mass as that is what all training courses that i have heard of teach (expt for a few, but they are mostly 2 body 1 head drills)
and aiming while moving is not that hard, unless you are shooting at med-long range. in which case the range mods stack up pretty quick. I do think that the implimentation of called shots and aiming is the problem, not the rule. (5m is really close, and most pistol combat occurs at under 3 in RL. is SR most pistol combat seems to be in the 10-20m range, or maybe that's just me) what would be good is ranged weapon rules when used in melee combat ranges. that would be usefull.
don't mean to piss on the parade, and perhaps I missunderstood the point
Ol' Scratch
It's too incomplete to give any real opinion. Besides the points already brought up, what's the reprecussions for the target of a successful Called Shot under this system? Also, why is shooting someone in the head -- a part of the body everyone instinctively does their best to keep safe -- more than twice as easy as shooting someone in the lower leg which has to stay still for at least a short period of time even when a target is running?
Umbrage
If I kick down a door and there's a bad guy standing directly in front of me, I might instinctly go for a head shot. I'm not going to take the time to stop and aim, my hand just reflexively goes up and I squeeze.

Your system would also seem overly complex when you have to also figure out staging.

Interesting though... Why did you create it? Do you consider the canon called shot rules broken?
Apathy
QUOTE
why is shooting someone in the head -- a part of the body everyone instinctively does their best to keep safe -- more than twice as easy as shooting someone in the lower leg which has to stay still for at least a short period of time even when a target is running?

Most times I would agree that shooting in the head should be more difficult than shooting in the leg. After all the head is smaller (less total exposed surface). In the specific instance of the target running, though, I think a leg shot would be much tougher. Even if the body and head of the runner are moving from left to right at a consistent speed, the legs are constantly changing speed, and changing position relative to the body's center of mass (infrontofthebody-behindthebody-infrontofthebody-behindthebody...)
Ol' Scratch
Yeah, but its a lot easier to predict exactly when and where those legs are going to be while someone is running rather than a head that's almost always going to be the most guarded part of a person's body (such as tucking it down to make it an even smaller target while running away).
Shadow
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
"nullify one of your opponents beneficial TN modifiers "
Does this mean I can aim for a Simple Action and negate the partial cover +4 modifier? Doesn't sound right to me.

Good Point I hadn't thought of that. I was trying to give a reward for aiming that was unique and not just another -1tn.
Shadow
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond,)

By the way, you may want to mention the benefits of each "type" of called shot. I think there should be additional effects if any wound is dealt, rather than the increased Damage Level thing we have currently.


The benefit would be armor reduction. I am designing a more realistic armor system to go with it. I have never liked the current one. The combat system is half abstract and half not. I want to make it all realistic,

QUOTE (Krazy)

that's pretty complex and not terribly realistic.

Forgive me if I disagree with you. grinbig.gif I based it on my experience shooting. Shooting someone in the head is neither instinctive or as easy as shooting them in the torso.

I do apreciate your perspective though, perhaps I need to revisit the Success adjustments.


QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

It's too incomplete to give any real opinion. Besides the points already brought up, what's the repercussions for the target of a successful Called Shot under this system?


Making a called shot in the system lets you shoot someone’s hand to affect their aiming, or slow them down by shooting them in the leg. It pairs with a hit location system I am toying with. (Figured I need to revamp SR3 a little since Fanpro is never going to do it).


QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

Also, why is shooting someone in the head -- a part of the body everyone instinctively does their best to keep safe -- more than twice as easy as shooting someone in the lower leg which has to stay still for at least a short period of time even when a target is running?

Because while it is harder to shoot the head than the torso it is always in line with the torso, aim a little higher and a little steadier. Yes people do try to keep there head safe, but in a fire fight you have to expose it to shoot. Perhaps though I should make it 4 instead of 2.

QUOTE (Umbrage)

If I kick down a door and there's a bad guy standing directly in front of me, I might instinctively go for a head shot. I'm not going to take the time to stop and aim, my hand just reflexively goes up and I squeeze.


No one instinctively goes for head shots. If they are shooting on instinct they point and shoot, often times closing their eyes. Professionals shoot center mass. The system is based on you being a trained professional so the basic shooting is assumed for center mass.

John Campbell
I'm of the opinion that making called shots for increased damage or bypassing armor should be abolished completely. I assume that anyone shooting is automatically trying to hit vital areas and bypass armor, and that the staging up of damage from their successes on the attack roll represents their success in doing so.

The called shot mechanic is basically broken, anyway... you're actually likely to do more damage just shooting at a TN of 3 than you are making called shots for increased damage at a TN of 7. The extra successes from the lower TN will more than make up for the lower base damage. (With 6 dice, you'll average 4 successes against TN 3 and only 1 against TN 7.)

Called shots for things like shooting a weapon out of a hand are fine, but they don't need a special mechanic. Just slap a TN modifier on for the small size of the target and go.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
I'm of the opinion that making called shots for increased damage or bypassing armor should be abolished completely. I assume that anyone shooting is automatically trying to hit vital areas and bypass armor, and that the staging up of damage from their successes on the attack roll represents their success in doing so.

That's my personal preference, too. The rules for aiming are all you really need to reflect someone taking their time to lay down a really nice shot, as opposed to shooting as best they can in a stressful situation... and those cumulative -1 TNs are insanely powerful in the end.

But then I'm also in the small minority of Dumpshock posters who actually relish the abstract nature of the game mechanics.
Shadow
I agree completely. Bypassing armor and increasing damage is a broken way to do it. I would liek an option for a much more realistic engagement. Hence the rules idea above.
Krazy
you have to remember that most of the combatants arn't battle trained, and even many shadowrunnrs arn't firearm specialists. I think that assuming an undeclared shot is for center of mass is fair.
shadow, I meant that your set of rules (threaholds and stuff) were complex, and the rule that you must aim to call the shot is unrealistic. at short range I can send a bullet to where I want without aiming. it's called point shooting. now that could be an intersting method of skill division, CQB and ranged?
and closing your eyes when shooting instintivly? WTF? ok, maybe you have a lot more npcs and pc that default to quickness.
hitting a leg is very hard (I'd say TN+6), unless the person is running at you, in which case I recommend failure to stop drills (two chest one head untill they stop)
finnaly weather you shoot center of mass or head is dictated my training yes, but pros don't only shoot center of mass. it kinda goes like this. untrained "I just wanna hit him"
slightly trained (armed guard) "A chest shot should bring him down" trained (cop) "Chest shots will stop him, and a head shot sure will, cuz he's right here!" and pro (HRT) "Target. shoot/ don't shoot. bang. reasses"
John, a TN3 when the other guy is only staging down 2's doesn't help much, and if your skill is that high, well, then you need more challenge.
scoundrel
QUOTE (Shadow)
Hands: 6 Successes

Does this mean that someone with less than 6 dice to throw can never hit someone's hand?
Aardvark892
QUOTE (John Campbell)
I assume that anyone shooting is automatically trying to hit vital areas and bypass armor, and that the staging up of damage from their successes on the attack roll represents their success in doing so.


I agree with John Campbell. More successes, if read this way, directly represent the PC trying to make his shot more effective, and therefore more lethal. Who's to say that, for example, three successes DOESN'T mean a head shot? A 6L shot from a hold out by a really good shootist that scores six or more successes could cause as much damage as a much heavier round, and that would say to me that his bullet his a more exposed/more lethal part of his target, like taking his ear off. Does that make sense?

Tim
Eyeless Blond
Gotta agree with John Campbel and others. In a game like Shadowrun, where there are exactly three deliniations between the most minor physical wound and one that can kill you in 15 seconds, a more "realistic" combat system with actual hit locations isn't really appropriate. I'm all in favor of leaving combat almost totally abstract, and using Called Shots for special effects, like blowing out tires, preventing people from holding a gun by shooting them in the wrist, keeping people from running by shooting their feet, that sort of thing.

Also:
QUOTE
Does this mean that someone with less than 6 dice to throw can never hit someone's hand?
Scoundrel brings up an excellent point here. to help out with this you might want to implement a special dice rolling mechanic, say that for every 6 points that you beat the TN you get an additional success? But of course this makes things even more complicated, doesn't it?
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Aardvark892)
A 6L shot from a hold out by a really good shootist that scores six or more successes could cause as much damage as a much heavier round, and that would say to me that his bullet his a more exposed/more lethal part of his target, like taking his ear off. Does that make sense?

I largely agree with you in principle, as long as you really make no distinction between body parts in the rules, but I would like to point out that taking off an ear is hardly serious damage. If the outer ear is completely severed it might barely be a Moderate, but otherwise damaging it wouldn't be more than a Light -- it's a small cartilaginous flap with little in the way of blood vessels.

Unless, of course, you meant firing at the ear from the side, which is another matter entirely.
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