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I know this is kind of off-topic, but I thought here is a good story to refute the whole "Friends in Melee" bonus.

42 Midgits vs 1 Lion

EDIT: Yes, it's fake. But still funny. Apparently some guy faked it to win an arguement with a friend about who would win a fight between a lion and 40 midgits.
is it wrong that i'm chuckling?

Seriously, they prolly weren't acting together, and just randomly throwing themselves at it. no benifit for them
Herald of Verjigorm
Well, lets do some math.

Midgets: B: 4, S: 3, Reach: -1, 3M (estimates)
Lion: B: 8, S: 8, Reach: 1, (Str+2)S, Whirling (even big cats can spin when they want to)

It did take a whole 12 minutes, which can also be counted as 240 combat turns, so it's clear that the lion wasn't getting anywhere close to a kill a round.
Herald, you forgot to factor in the SUT and Battletac that the midgets have. biggrin.gif
And the innate ability "terrifying roar" that acted as a stupifying effect on all 42 dwarfs.
This is a classic case of the pack attack.
Using SR rules and assuming the midgets are untrained and unarmed (bod 2, str 2 CP 2)

The midgets will be attacking 6 at a time however the max friends in melee bonus is +/-4.

First round the midgets may not be in position so we could loose some.

Second round we have
6 midgets each with 4 dice target 5
1 lion countering each with 7 dice target 8 (this is preferable use of reach)

this gives the midgets a probable win with 1-2 net successes. But may win occasionally

Of cause the lion has maybe 8 body and is soaking 2M stun so he will only rarely take damage. If this hapons early in the fight the penaltys may tip the balance in favour of the migets

It will be a long and protracted fight with an uncertain final victor although many migets will be downed

If the midgets are trained to basic competency (skill 4 CP still 2) then it changes to this

Midgets 6 dice target 2
Lion 7 dice target 7

The midgets now have a probable 4 net successes the lion is soaking 2D with 8 body, he will take an average of a light wound from each attack, and die soon.

This is an issue with the friends in melee rules.

Ol' Scratch
Actually, if the midgets are defaulting and the lion is using his Reaction, and assuming (for whatever reason) that the lion has Whirling, the target numbers will be Midgets TN 4 with 3 dice (plus up to +3 CP), Lion TN 3 (with its total +2 Reach advantage) and 6 dice (plus up to +6 CP). The midgets are doing 3M Stun damage while the lion is doing 10S Physical damage.

So no, the midgets wouldn't stand a chance under those rules. They're out target numbered, out damaged, and out diced. And every time one of them attacks, the lion gets to attack right back with a minimum number of dice equal to theirs even if they're using their full Combat Pool.
Youíre assuming the lion has whirling.

How the hell dose a critter get a mauver.

Ol' Scratch
I was going on the Herald's stats and the entry for Tiger's in Critters for everything else. And even without Whirling, the midgets don't stand much of a chance (though it does account for why it took so many Combat Turns above). Without it would be TN 4, 3+3 dice, and 3M Stun damage versus TN 6, 6+6 dice, and 10S damage, with the lion getting almost unlimited counterattacks in addition to his own attacks with his superior Initiative and Reactino scores.
Crimson Jack
is it wrong that i'm chuckling?

Not when humanity does dumbass stuff like fighting lions. Jesus.
I'd give the lion multistrike, too. They're pretty big and one good swipe could definitely hit more than one midget.

I wish I could see something like that.
It's worth noting that the midgets who supposedly took on that lion are trained combatants in a nationally recognized fighting league, not simple civilians who paid for a few months of instruction at the local McDojo. nyahnyah.gif
Crimson Jack
Yes, but still midgets.
Don't be ragging on the midgets...+1 body and +2 strength go a long way in compensating for their shortage of vertical dimensions.
Crimson Jack
Right. I'll assume that's a joke. nyahnyah.gif
I never make jokes.
Uh, guys, it's clearly a fake.
Crimson Jack

Who cares. Its fun to think about.

Now what if they were midget PIRATES. Arrr....
Reign Maker
Midgets are sneaky and evil...they might use foreign objects... you know throw a chair in the ring, have some razors in their wrist bands... never trust a midget. I have seen midget wrestling!!!!
LOL oh my.

Gotta be fake mind. Jesus, the lion is named (Panthera Leo), can anyone say thundercats?
Mister Juan
Please! Stop! It hurts! biggrin.gif

Somehow, I can't believe we (the human race as a whole) have came to this.
If we now have whole leagues of midgets fighting lions, when are is the "Running Man" reality tv show coming out?
Guys, it is a fake. It is a very obvious fake. The BBC never posted such a story because one was never written because it never happened. In fact, it's a fairly old fake. This was making rounds a month ago. Plenty of these have been done before. You guys didn't fall for the CNN and BBC zombie scares, did you?
Reign Maker
The Evil Pirate Midgets just want you to think it is a fake..trying to save face at losing to a lion!! They got to you already, thats to bad.
QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc)
LOL oh my.

Gotta be fake mind. Jesus, the lion is named (Panthera Leo), can anyone say thundercats?

Panthera Leo is the scientific name.

Just goes to show we need better education systems.

LOL sorry my bad. Just reminded me straight up of thundercats.

I never was any good at Biology.
I was there and i swear that damn lion had wired reflexes 3! eek.gif
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I was going on the Herald's stats and the entry for Tiger's in Critters for everything else. And even without Whirling, the midgets don't stand much of a chance (though it does account for why it took so many Combat Turns above). Without it would be TN 4, 3+3 dice, and 3M Stun damage versus TN 6, 6+6 dice, and 10S damage, with the lion getting almost unlimited counterattacks in addition to his own attacks with his superior Initiative and Reactino scores.

Where are you getting those target numbers.

I will accept your assertion that a midget has 3 skill and 3 combat pool and al applicable stats at 3 (there training has covered for any disadvantages of being a midget in terms of strength and body) to be honest a recognised fighting leag probably has better skill than that if not stats.

Melee combat starts at target 4. with max friends in melee for the midgets there target number I reduced buy 4, that being 0 (becomes 2). The lionís target number is increased buy 4 becoming 8 to which he apples his point of reach making it 7 which is functionally the same as 6.

Now the lion you gave skill (reaction 6) and 6 points of combat pool, but that combat pool will quickly be expended. If he puts it all into one attack as you suggested he will get a probable 2 successes while the midgets (that take one action per combat turn and apply full CP to every attack) have 6 dice TN 2 for a probable 5 successes, lion must soak 3S stun successfully soaking this about of damage is possible but given the number of times it is being required to do so it should be defeated in relatively short order.

Now the midgets are going to suffer loses, due to chance and due to spending their CP attacking and not having anything left to defend when the lion attacks, although there are metagaming timing tequniques that /may/ alleviate this risk even without that the midgets have the numbers to absorb a significant number of casualties.

Ol' Scratch
I'm assuming the midgets have no Melee Skill, which is the general assumption for all average metahumans.

Base TN 4 for both parties. Midgets get the Friends in Melee bonus, but suffer from a Strength defaulting penalty, evening out their TN to 4. The lion is a skilled combatant using Reaction like other critters and has Whirling to offset his penalty due to all the midgets (giving him a +1 penalty to his attacks but not to his counterattacks). He also has a total Reach advantage of 2 (+1 for him, -1 for the short-limbed midgets) which he uses to lower his own TN. Thus the lion's final TN is 4 +1 - 2, or 3 or a TN of 2 on his counterattacks. Without Whirling, his TN is 4 + 4 - 2 or 6 both ways.

With Whirling, the midgets are dead, no contest. Each time one attacks the lion, they're pretty much going down due to the superior target number alone even if they use their max Combat Pool (and that's me being nice by letting them using Combat Pool despite being unskilled), as they'll only average 3 successes versus the lion's 5 or so, which is enough to stage his attack to Deadly.

Without Whirling, they midgets have a shot of whittling the lion down, but its going to take a bit of time and there will be quite a few losses.
If the midgets have no melee skill and are defaulting to STR then they can not apply there combat pool to there melee skill, so they are well dead wether or not the lion has whirling.

I maintain that I can see no way for the lion to get whirling, it is a martial arts tequnique and as far s I know critters cant get them.

The article specified that the midgets where a fighting league, it is assumed that skills key to your occupation are at 3 for average metahumans, as members of a fighting league 3 in unarmed combat is the minimum I could see them having.

I dispute that midgets have -1 reach, I donít recall anything having that including small stocky animals but it makes no difference as it is the difference between target 7 and target 6 for the lion which we all know is no difference at all.

The 2 key differences of opinion we seem to have are.

Can a lion have whirling?
Do the members of a professional combat league have at least 3 in unarmed combat?

If youíre right the lion wins
If I am right the midgets win

At least in SR.

John Campbell
If we assume that the midgets are Bod 2, Str 2 (small human specimens, not dwarves), Reach 0 (dwarves don't get a Reach penalty, so I don't see why midgets should) and unskilled, and the lion is using the Tiger stats from Critters - Bod 8, Reac 6, Reach +1, 10S damage, 6 CP, no maneuvers (critters don't use Martial Arts) - I think the midgets are going down, but it'll take a while.

The midgets can't use Combat Pool when defaulting to attribute, so they've only got two dice to throw. Their friends-in-melee bonus offsets their defaulting penalty, but they need to get past the lion's Reach, so they're throwing 2 dice at a TN of 5, and averaging 0.67 successes.

The lion, as a critter, uses Reaction without defaulting penalty, so he's throwing 6 dice at a TN of 8 (friends-in-melee penalty), and averaging 0.83 successes, giving him a slight edge in any individual contest. On top of that, the lion gets to use his combat pool, so he's got 6 more dice with which to selectively tip the balance on some of those contests. Further, when hits do land, the lion's resisting 2M Stun with 8 Body dice plus any pool he wants to use, while the midgets are resisting 10S with only 2 Body dice plus pool, so the lion's got pretty good odds of completely soaking hits, while the midgets are all but guaranteed to take at least an M on a successful hit.

On the other hand, the midgets have, cumulatively, a lot more Karma Pool than the lion does.

If we assume that the midgets have at least a couple of dice in Unarmed, though, the lion's going down. The lowered TN plus ability to use pool gives them a hefty edge in average successes in every contest. They might lose one or two midgets to lucky swipes before they can get past the lion's ability to soak damage, but they'll win.

Assuming that they're not human midgets, but average dwarves (Str 5, Bod 4) also gives them the edge, even unskilled. They don't get the better TN, but they have high enough Strengths to basically bury the lion in dice, and 5M blows can't just be shrugged off the way 2M blows can.
Ol' Scratch
Just as a note, dwarves have full human-sized torsos. Midgets do not. Reach -1 makes perfect sense based o that.
Reign Maker
What if the midgets take some kamakazie...... damn dopers!
Crimson Jack
That its fake takes nothing away from its comedic value. If anyone is interested, you can read about its fakery at snopes.
If this was even remotely real the midgets would not be untrained Brawling 3 with close combat would approximate a rookie wrestler.
Even assuming the midgets are capable fighters, the lion will win.

You do not take into account that the lion will quickly be against a wall, thus limiting the amount of midgets that can surround it.

Secondly, the lions longer reach and swift reactions will seriously demoralize any unarmed combatant trying to get close to it. If the midgets do not swarm the lion, then the lion will cap off the closest one every time they move in.

And swarming anything deadly, in a world with no magic healing, is not something people just do.

Humans, or midgets, use weapons to win. You'd have to grab a broken leg from one of your fellow midgets and stab the lion with the pointy end to have a chance to defeat it.

In short, lion wins.
Your grasp of what humanity does is tragically wrong. We kill. We are the deadliest predators on this planet. Not becuase we make tools, weapons or think. It is becuase we as a race will do things even Ants don't do. If hundreds of thousands of us die in taking out an enemy we feel it is justified. Unarmed people have been known to swarm over machine gun nests, riot cops, and national guard units. So don't think for a moment we would not swarm a lion.
QUOTE (lorthazar)
Not becuase we make tools, weapons or think.

Er, yes it is!
Yeah, uh, I think we definitely are the baddest motherfuckers on the planet because we make tools, use weapons, and think.
Ol' Scratch
Emphasis on the last one.
Reporter: You're taking 20 to 1 losses!
Chinese General: Yes, and soon there will be no more Japanese.

People will swarm. People will keep going. Depending on culture, they'll swarm tactically, or just attack en masse and kill the opponent when it's too tired to fight back. That being said... it doesn't always happen. Have to reach the proper mindset first.

There are other insects which do this too though (bees), so it's not restricted to people. It's also not what makes us the deadliest predator -- that's tool use and the killing for pleasure. What it does make is us is one of the scariest predators.
Ants will do this, there was a documentary on ants that I endured while working at the petrol station one night that showed a type of African army ant (swrafu????) that had trails hundreds of meters long, could kill and strip the flesh from a man if he was unable to run and villages where only safe because they spent all night sweeping them away from the homes with burning rolls of newspaper.

The footage of the ants taking down a chicken wis quite apt, the chicken eater 10 before one managed to get past, and 50 before they took it down.

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