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Demonseed Elite
Been thinking a lot about Shadowrun and how you change a game and yet have it remain essentially the same. That got me thinking about the core things I feel need to be preserved from one version of Shadowrun to another, so it's still Shadowrun. Setting aside, because that's fairly easy to keep if you try at it, here were the top three things that came to me.

Legwork - The period of time before the run. Working contacts, setting up the plan, doing the digging. Legwork is one of those things I've felt was a really critical, but often overlooked, piece of Shadowrun. The run itself is the truly exciting part, but the contacts are often where I put the long-term dramatic emphasis. The shadowrunner calls in a favor from his contact to get him through the run, but what happens when the contact needs a favor back? What happens if the people the runner worked against find out his contact leaked him information? Will there be retribution? What did the runner have to do to make the assistance worth the contact's while? I would say to preserve this sense, any version of Shadowrun should have mechanics for contacts, information searches, acquiring gear, fencing the loot, and the like. The network of exchanges that goes on between the actual runs.

Tactics - Every run starts with a plan. And then the plan goes to hell. If the runners keep their cool and apply smart tactical decisions on the fly, they can usually pull their asses out of the fire. This is sort of a mantra of Shadowrun; so many of the fictional pieces revolve around how the plan goes to hell and how the runners figure out a way to survive and succeed. The tactical part is important to me; Shadowrun isn't really a game of total chance (dice rolls aside). It's about making the smart choices and taking the appropriate actions, because failure to do so is lethal (see my third section). And it's about teamwork. Shadowruns are done in teams, in the classic A-Team/Mission: Impossible/etc. style, where everyone has a role and if anyone screws up, everybody is screwed. That's part of tactics. Any version of Shadowrun should have mechanics in place to represent player choice and emphasis on the action he believes is correct to take. Luck, courtesy of the dice, factors into any decision, but planning and choice should also. It shouldn't be as simple as "pray you roll well."

Lethality - Shadowrunning is a deadly business. In the last half of the twenty-first century, the human body is a frail and nearly-obsolete anachronism. Deckers cut through the Matrix at the speed of light with their minds, Mages call the powers of the heavens down to the earth, Street Samurai can kill a man before he knows what hit him, but they can all be taken down by a punk with a lucky shot. The human body is still frail and shit happens. And though near-deadly wounds are common, mankind's innovation has found ways around them. Cybernetics, bioware, nanotechnology. Build a better runner. The reason why the future of these technologies are so bright is because what nature gave us falls short much of the time. The game mechanics need to remain lethal, to remind runners they operate in a dangerous world, and that lack of planning or losing one's cool likely means death. And because in a lethal world, the siren's call of technological replacement is seductive.

To me, if the rules reflect and stress those three points, you can play with the rest all you want.
Eyeless Blond
Those are good, but I'd add a couple more:

Rarity of Magic - Magic in Shadowrun, as was put elsewhere, is the great equalizer. Megacorporations rule the world, and have cash resources that can stagger the mind, but the rarity and uniqueness of magic, its incapability to be mass-produced, gives the shadowrunner, if not an advantage, then at least the illusion that he has one. Magic should never be as common as a +1 sword in D&D; this means that, for the sake of the setting, magic items usable by PCs should either not exist or be inconsequential enough that not every megacorp on Earth will have equipped their guards with it. At the same time, it should be present and have such a significant impact on every aspect of the game world.

"Small fish: meet big fish. Big fish: meet lunch." - No matter how big the runners get, there should always be bigger fish out there. This applies especially if you're on a street level campaign, but no matter the level you're at there should always be some sort of power that your runners must walk small around. This kinda ties in with Lethality above, but kinda needs its own bullet point, because a consequence of this is that there will--and should be--some levels of power that are just beyond what a character can reach. This means things like megacorporations, large secret (preferably oppressive) government organizations, high-Force free spirits, Great Dragons, and, even (though I gag to say it) Immortal Elves. As to that last one though, I wouldn't really mind that much if all of them developed some sort of really painful disease and died horribly, slowly, and alone. mad.gif
SR4-WTF?
Mystery - What are in the shadows? Who is to know. There needs to be a web of rules for discovery and thwarting discovery of identity. How does the Small Fish keep from becoming lunch? He has to cover the tracks made in the Legwork and during the run execution. But the threat of discovery also has to be there, and it all needs several levels of scaling. The bigger splash you made, the more effort the Big Fish will put into discovery, the more effort the runners need to put into thwarting. Likewise, and this is really a tie-in to Legwork, the runners must have a complex set of options for detecting themselves.
Penta
Something I also add, though I imagine I can set off a debate:

Relevance - This is something I find essential. I remember reading ShadowBeat, London, and similar SR1-SR2 era books. I started with SR in about, oh, 1994-95. It had...zero relevance to me.

I'm going to be very oppositional to stuff I've heard here.

Forget the 80s. The 80s are dead.

Most players who might have entered SR since SR3 probably can't even *remember* the 80s very well. I can't, and I was born in 1983.

It has no relevance. Like a game based off of themes from the 1970s.

If all SR gaming must have 'throwback' characteristics, which I suppose is inevitable...Let the throwback be to, at most, the early 90s. Preferably the mid-90s.

Grunge. Nirvana. Alanis Morisette. A lot of people rediscovering just what it meant to be on the edge of technology.

Corporations not as independent actors (as much as they were in the 80s), but increasingly forced to cede power to governments and NGOs. That point where a lot of things seemed bright, but we had our first hints of darkness on the horizon.

(We can't abandon the idea of the extraterritorial megacorp, granted, but we can dial it back.)

As much as those who are 25-30 might have fond memories of the big hair 80s...

I don't. I don't even remember them.
Kagetenshi
Mystery is a big one. In my opinion a lot of this has already been lost in 3rd edition since FanPro took over—I'm sick and tired of knowing the answer. It started even before, come to think of it: Renraku Arcology: Shutdown was weaker than it could have been, in my opinion, because it was too free with information. Quite frankly, I'm iffy with Deus having been spelled out in the GM information section—having him in the in-character portions was just an awful choice. If something absolutely needs to be spelled out, an approach like Denver, with three completely different spelled-out items for each mystery, is far superior. Then when Brainscan came along and spelled out Deus' motivations

Governments. This is another thing we've been seeing in SR3 under FanPro that needs to be reversed and badly. We need governments to leave the picture and fast. They're starting to become non-negligible, actually worthy of notice by the Big Ten and the corporate court. UCAS citizens (for example) should be second-rate citizens behind Ares citizens, Shiawase citizens, etc. etc. etc. The corps are having their power as independent actors reduced, and that to me is unacceptable.

Actually, I just read Penta's post, and it pretty much sums up everything I disagree with. For reference, I was born in 1985, so the "we're too young for it to be relevant" argument doesn't hold much water.

More if and when I think of it.

~J
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
Governments. This is another thing we've been seeing in SR3 under FanPro that needs to be reversed and badly. We need governments to leave the picture and fast.

I have to disagree vehemently here. I want more Government and, in particular, lots more Media involvement in the shadows. I already have a tough enough time seeing governments willingly giving up all their power to corporations (it's the weakest part of the backstory in my opinion, right up there with how easily every country changed so drastically in just 20-40 years from now), but seeing them just sit idly by and letting them continue to dominate the world stretched my disbelief tons more.
SpasticTeapot
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE
Governments. This is another thing we've been seeing in SR3 under FanPro that needs to be reversed and badly. We need governments to leave the picture and fast.

I have to disagree vehemently here. I want more Government and, in particular, lots more Media involvement in the shadows. I already have a tough enough time seeing governments willingly giving up all their power to corporations (it's the weakest part of the backstory in my opinion, right up there with how easily every country changed so drastically in just 20-40 years from now), but seeing them just sit idly by and letting them continue to dominate the world stretched my disbelief tons more.

It's a bit like 1930's Chicago, except you have megacorps instead of Al Capone. The government is happy with the current situation because they're recieving massive amounts of bribes and, due to the fact that almost everything is extraterritorial in Seattle, don't have to do very much. The gangs rule the low parts; the corps rule the treetops. This is, of course, one of the big reasons why the Big D was a popular presidential candidate; after all, how can you bribe someone who's older than recorded history and has almost anything he could possibly want?
NeoJudas
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE
Governments. This is another thing we've been seeing in SR3 under FanPro that needs to be reversed and badly. We need governments to leave the picture and fast.

I have to disagree vehemently here. I want more Government and, in particular, lots more Media involvement in the shadows. I already have a tough enough time seeing governments willingly giving up all their power to corporations (it's the weakest part of the backstory in my opinion, right up there with how easily every country changed so drastically in just 20-40 years from now), but seeing them just sit idly by and letting them continue to dominate the world stretched my disbelief tons more.

The whole Governments vs. Megacorporations is a topic that isn't really SR4 restricted, but I guess if we were to put in our opinions here on how Source materials for SR4 might go, then hey this works.

I personally find DE's original post fitting. As for the "Relevance" issue that Penta put forth, I would argue "Ignorance of History is only an Excuse to Not Learn from It". Certainly there was a lot of material from the first edition stuff (and second, and even third) that really was fluff. But we also need to keep in mind that proliferation and availability of that fluff in some form should probably continue. Perhaps as PDF's on websites, etc... okay, some it is already happening now. I would also argue Relevance if only because sometimes it is the small details that trigger that most massive and extensive of storylines. I know that's how two or three of the older metaplots in the SR universe actually got started. Minor Details in some earlier work that got bloated up into something more entertaining.

And while I'm thinking of it ....

Metaplots- I know there is an official storyline out there still, and for those in dev/ptester land, don't try to jibe me otherwise. I knew of them and I have still had the opportunity here/there to hear of them. What I would like is some kind of helpful information for those GM's/Game Groups out there as to the directions of the various Metaplots going on at the development level in a simplest terms kinda way. I don't necessarily mean the ultimate details, but at least a short list of the likely directions without having to have some kind of "official developer GM confirmation" of a character and/or scenario. Especially given the often counter-responsive counter-effective rulings the developer GM winds up giving (come on, Illusion target number equal to OR on a gun that is laying there, but a 4 if it is on the person and the person with all their gear is going invis????).

As to Rarity of Magic. I would only point out that ultimately that is a GM/Game Group decision. I know of many AD&D GM's (of all editions) who think that a +1 sword should be rare and not seen until Level 7 where other people think that the first Ancient Great Red Dragon with all it's lair should be slain by no later than Level 8. Same holds very true for Shadowrun (or any game system involving magic). Yes, magical pervasion can influence the storyline/metaplot potential, but it is something that ultimately individuals/groups decide upon.

In Truth; if it were me, I'd personally tell the Game Developers to get their noses completely out of the job of story development and just stick to mechanics. Let the rest of the gamers and those people who submit material to decide the Storylines. They do that, and the biases in regards to game mechanics will take care of itself. Story Stuff/"History" will then go to everyone else where is bias is welcome to run rampant.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE
Governments. This is another thing we've been seeing in SR3 under FanPro that needs to be reversed and badly. We need governments to leave the picture and fast.

I have to disagree vehemently here. I want more Government and, in particular, lots more Media involvement in the shadows. I already have a tough enough time seeing governments willingly giving up all their power to corporations (it's the weakest part of the backstory in my opinion, right up there with how easily every country changed so drastically in just 20-40 years from now), but seeing them just sit idly by and letting them continue to dominate the world stretched my disbelief tons more.

I disagree regarding the governments—I view Shadowrun governments as much more like Prohibition-era US government than anything we have today, and that change took less than forty years (and less dramatic events than VITAS/the Awakening/UGE/Goblinization!). I agree wholeheartedly regarding the media—a good investigative journalist plus some smoking guns can be as effective as an extended campaign of shadowruns, if not more so. They should be the ultimate corp weapon against other corps and Shadowrunners alike.

~J
Penta
That's the thing, Kage.

On the federal level, government during Prohibition was the cleanest it had ever been, and would only get better as time went on.

It was state and local governments who were corrupt as hell. But the federal government was clean.
Kagetenshi
I wouldn't call a government that would let prohibition hit the lawbooks, much less become a constitutional amendment, "clean". Regardless, it's the local governments of that era that I'm looking to as my model of the Shadowrun world.

~J
Penta
I meant clean as "not being bought and sold".

Not smart.

Also, prohibition was a popular effort, pushed on by the populace.

(The whys and wherefores can take up a library.)

Next:

Yes, but you're referring to *national* governments.

There are, also, massive differences between the national and state/local governments back then.

These matter when projecting into any 21st-century context.
  • Bureaucracy - I can't emphasize this enough. In the 20s and 30s, most state governments (and just about every local government) were part-time institutions. There basically was no bureaucracy. A professional government worker was an oxymoron. The idea of the civil service hadn't really come into fashion. Not so at the federal level. There, government had become professionalized since the 1880s, with the civil service as we know it basically set (reforms have come about periodically, but they hardly touch much), complemented by legislators whom, unlike their state counterparts, were full-time legislators. Add on the first appearance of the oversight units (The GAO was founded in 1921), and corruption was very difficult in the federal sphere. (Among the civil service, which is what matters. Political appointees have always been presumed dirty until the appearance of, and usually regardless of, proof to the contrary, and thus have no real power beyond what the civil servants *allow* them to exercise. Piss off the civil service, and the political appointee can be left bleeding on the floor of the halls of power.)
  • Next, the end of the Machines. Yeah, this can be debated. However, after 1920, they went downhill quick. By the 70s, they were gone, and are very unlikely to come back. The machines were key to the corruption of the Prohibition era; However, they never got beyond city or, at most, state politics.

Does that mean there's no corruption at the federal level? Nope.

Teapot Dome is a great example of it.

But that was the work of political appointees. After Watergate, they hardly have the freedom to maneuver that they did in Harding's administration.
hermit
QUOTE
Governments. This is another thing we've been seeing in SR3 under FanPro that needs to be reversed and badly. We need governments to leave the picture and fast. They're starting to become non-negligible, actually worthy of notice by the Big Ten and the corporate court. UCAS citizens (for example) should be second-rate citizens behind Ares citizens, Shiawase citizens, etc. etc. etc. The corps are having their power as independent actors reduced, and that to me is unacceptable.

NO. That would be uber-cheesy and highly unrealistic. Corruption, yes. Behind-the-scenes corporate puppet mastership, certainly. Even private armies, okay, so long as they're not on par with true national armies. But *replace* nations? Hell no! That would be totally against how corporations actually work.

QUOTE
I wouldn't call a government that would let prohibition hit the lawbooks, much less become a constitutional amendment, "clean".

You could call them zelotic, but upholding prohibition isn't unclean governance. Not all religious or ideological fanatics are corrupt (though admittedly, most are).
Penta
I think most would be too much, too.

For every corrupt religious fanatic, there are usually 9 non-corrupt ones.

It's the only way the corrupt ones get anywhere.

(And re Prohibition: It really did seem like a Good Idea At The Time. In retrospect, we know it was a bad one, but how were they to know that?

If you fault em, it's more appropriate to fault em after a few years of it when it should have been clear (and, actually, was to even a lot of prohibition supporters) that the effort was a failure, but wasn't stopped. Say, after 1924.)
Wireknight
1. Amorality
What I like about Shadowrun is that it has fantasy and cyberpunk elements, but is at its core a crime drama, and the default character, the shadowrunner, is the criminal. Attempts have been made through every system's evolution to reward good deeds and punish evil ones, in adventures and in reward mechanics, but at the end of the week, your character has probably gotten people they don't know fired, killed working stiffs who happened to get their paycheck through work as cops and guards, and, if they're a magician with elemental manipulation spells, broken the Geneva convention. Fireball sticks to kids. Your character might try and do good deeds to offset the fact that they make their living through amoral (or even immoral) acts, but in an amoral world that reflects our own, it's how well you play your character, not how good you play them, that really counts.

2. Danger
Everyone bleeds. Injury is something to be worried about. Even if your character is the toughest bastard that cybertechnology, bioware, regular exercise, and handfuls of steroids can produce, a bullet to the head isn't something you can shrug off. You need armor, because you are still, at the core, a fragile being of flesh and blood. Magic makes this even more true. Even if you've replaced every inch of your surface area with nigh-impenetrable armored cybernetics, a well-placed manabolt can drop you as easy as a strung-out chiphead. You need to be careful. Wear as much armor as you can get away with given the climate, the social norms, and jurisdictional laws. Keep magical backup around. Be paranoid, be prepared, because you are in danger.

3. Limited Suspension of Disbelief
Yes, there is magic in the world. Given this as a fact, a great deal of suspension of disbelief is possible. You should not, however, have to regularly tell yourself "it's just a game". People can't lift trucks over their heads, magic can't alter time/space, and all technology is on some level a plausible evolution of technological advancements, real and predicted, of the real world. Why can't you have a micro-fusion-powered gun that shoots pellets of antimatter? No one would develop something like that, and even if they did, it's so far beyond current technology that it'd seem like having a computer in a Wild West setting. Why aren't there flying cars? Have you seen how people drive when they only have two dimensions to worry about? The medical and insurance industries would fall apart. Shadowrun is fantastic, yes. It is not, however, fantasy.
Bomber
OMG - rational, mature, non-combative debate!

I can die happy!

Insert flaming after biggrin.gif
Penta
Everybody kill Bomber!

Bomber: Don't encourage em.
SR4-WTF?
I always have seen SR era corporations and governments in a roughly equal strength stalemate. The power balance change coming about because of the combination of outsourcing of civil servants (Lonestar for example), global companies that are currently in the power range of the weakest countries continuing to increase in size, and the widespread turmoil created by URGE and the Crash.

As Penta pointed out the civil service is relied apon by elected officals and the top layer of bueracrates they appoint to actually run government. If the civil service becomes largely corporation run the corporation could use that conflict of interests to make it a much more corp friendly world.

As a result governments would be hardpressed to assert the true extent of their true powers over corps within the government's jurisdiction. For example few people in NA realise that they don't actualy own the land they think they do. It is closer to say all land is on permanent lease from the government. But if a 6th world government takes full action based on that against a large corporation the corporation is big enough, and enough safe harbours outside the country, and enough resources to hit back at the government hard. Or at least ruin whatever career and life the uppity political leader(s) formerly had.

On the flip side corporations must still give some leeway to governments because their populations, for democracies, and/or militaries still give a power base to back a semblance of judicial systems. Plus the governments also perform a service for the corporations, to maintain stability it markets they operate in.
Penta
Actually, that's something I meant to address.

Allowing for how *unlikely* so many things like LS is...

Contracting out has only happened *at city levels*, maybe state levels. There it is actually realistic: Towns contract for police services all the time, usually to the state police or other municipalities. States don't usually contract out functions like that, and Seattle is sort of weird, and we've never heard much of anything about the states otherwise.

In our case, we're concerned here with national governments.

Those, my friends, have very little outsourcing. The civil service still lives.

There's still the FBI, still CIA, still all the agencies we know and love in the Federal Government.

There can never be outsourcing of federal functions in any significant way.

Why? Because once you outsource those, *you lose the purpose of your existence*.

The way I see it:

The power of corporations has had a sort of wave effect.

From 2001 to 2030 or so, governments ruled.

From 2030 to 2060, corps more or less held the edge.

2060 to 2070, stalemate.

2070 on, even including the sustem failure? Government power is on a slight upswing.

SR4-WTF?
For years now there have been state prisons that are corp run. Also look at all the private service companies the US military is using right in the theatre of war.

QUOTE
There can never be outsourcing of federal functions in any significant way.

Why? Because once you outsource those, *you lose the purpose of your existence*.


I never said it would be smart idea. Given the outcome I am suggesting it would be a very shortsighted mistake. But shortsighted options are not always rejected.
Demonseed Elite
I think suggestions like Relevance and probably even Mystery fall mostly under setting, as I'm not sure what kind of mechanics go along with them. I'm not sure I agree with Relevance, but I do agree with the idea of Mystery. I will say that it is tough though, when writing current material, to include the unanswered questions. Like Deus, that was mentioned. I mean, we couldn't really leave the Arcology sitting shut down in Seattle without addressing and dealing with it again at some point.

I very much agree with WK's Amorality suggestion though, and that's one I'd add to my own list. Mechanically, there shouldn't be any attempt to guide shadowrunners towards being heroes; they are anti-heroes. Sometimes they do some good things, but they do a lot of bad things too. It's the nature of their work and part of the theme of living the SINless life.

QUOTE
Metaplots- I know there is an official storyline out there still, and for those in dev/ptester land, don't try to jibe me otherwise. I knew of them and I have still had the opportunity here/there to hear of them. What I would like is some kind of helpful information for those GM's/Game Groups out there as to the directions of the various Metaplots going on at the development level in a simplest terms kinda way. I don't necessarily mean the ultimate details, but at least a short list of the likely directions without having to have some kind of "official developer GM confirmation" of a character and/or scenario. Especially given the often counter-responsive counter-effective rulings the developer GM winds up giving (come on, Illusion target number equal to OR on a gun that is laying there, but a 4 if it is on the person and the person with all their gear is going invis????).


This part confused me, NJ. I'm not sure what you're asking for there. nyahnyah.gif
hermit
Okay, now here goes my list (apart from what has already been said):

- Twisted Fantasy
Dragons owning multinationals they bought with their hoard. Elves setting up fantasy-tinged fascist regimes. Orc underclass workers demonstrating for civil rights. freaky creatures and spirits applying for recognition/citizenship. The way Shadowrun takes traditional fantasy cliches and gives them a modern, real-world twist has always made the setting enjoyable and fun for me. It's realistic, in a way, but with enough fantastic elements to becoem a unique and fantastic setting nonetheless, and remains slihtly tongue-in-cheek even when adressing real-world issues (in a surprisingly mature and neutral tone, too).

- No Morality
Unlike AD&D or most other RPGs, the SR world doesn't judge the charactrs by their actions. There is no alignment, no classes, no superior entities (like D&D gods) who tell you that you'Re evil/good and have to act accordingly or face some sort of punishment. It gives the player much more freedom to make decisions for themselves, and doesn't force them into some sort of premade moral frame (Paladines do this, thieves do that).
tjn
In regards to Shadowrun's morality, or lack thereof, I personally have always appreciated the irony of the game's PC's being the only ones that give a damn. And they're criminals, through and through.

In a world of infinite grey, where the only motive for the corperations is profit and where the government is jaded and unresponsive to the concerns of the average chummer, the only person who strives to make the world a better place is the same person who breaks the law as a profession.

That's not to say every Shadowrunner is Robin Hood; the point is they have the choice. They can just as easily posion a shipment of Snak-Time treats destined for elementry kids for their payoff, or they could steal the line from our good buddy Jean Reno: "no women, no children."

But it comes down to their choice because no one else will and because of that, it makes them unique and intriguing characters to play.
hermit
Speak for yourself, tjn Of my major characters, only one tries to make the world a better place, and that only in the small frame of his 'hood. The Rigger nly cares for herself and about four other people, and the terrorist ... well, is a terrorosit. He wants revenge, nothing else, and will smash anyone who stands in his way (or die trying).

the Rigger currently is engaged in Brainscan, though, working for the good side, and constantly bitching to the rest of the team about how little that nets and how much more she loses than gains. She's pretty close to just walking away, the only reason she hasn't is because she's got some personal matters to see to with Deus now.
SR4-WTF?
QUOTE
I think suggestions like Relevance and probably even Mystery fall mostly under setting, as I'm not sure what kind of mechanics go along with them.


A better name I should have used instead of Mystery maybe is Cloak & Dagger? What Kagetenshi is talking about is not what I ment. What I was talking about are mechanics such as:

1) Astral signatures left by spell casting.
2) Tracking magically by physical samples.
3) SINs and faking identification or taking on other identities.
4) Surveilence and counter surveilence. Microphones, cameras, whitenoise generators, etc.
5) The whole of encoding/decoding stored data and transmissions.
6) Stealth and stealth detection. Security systems and such.


Postscript: I don't fully agree with Kagetenshi. I can live with a good amout of data given to the GM. The runners -eventually- uncovering, or mostly uncovering motives? Well if nobody hears a good story told is it still a good story? wink.gif Perhaps things have been revealed in a bit of a ham-handed fashion at times, but I'm not sure it is uber critical to fully stop all that.

[EDIT] The reason I don't consider it uber critical is that the GM can treat it as an opinion of the facts given from one point of view and perhaps with some errors. Why can't a villian lie in a motivation revealing monologe? What is the whole of all the true, objective facts? A level of unknown is then retained. [/EDIT]

I will repeat what many here have, that the Universal Brotherhood is a good example of metaplot and hidden story being revealed over time. We do now mostly know what is motivating the insect spirits, and this came about naturally due to their uncovering.
tjn
QUOTE (hermit)
Speak for yourself

I do believe I did... indifferent.gif

Outside of power-vengence fantasies against "The Man," what point is there to specifically play criminals as the accepted base PC of the accepted base game setting, enless the criminals have some inheirant difference then the people on the other side of the law?

You get to play with a lot more toys on the other side of the fence. But there's also a lot less freedom, individuality, and ability to make a choice on that side of the fence.

As a runner, you have the choice to mire oneself in that great murky grey, or rise above it. Or if you're particularly anti-social, descend below it.

The point is, the PC has that choice. Everyone else is just following orders, be it from their manager, CEO, or stockholders.
hermit
Sorry, that cayme out much harsher than I intended. smile.gif

QUOTE
Outside of power-vengence fantasies against "The Man," what point is there to specifically play criminals as the accepted base PC of the accepted base game setting, enless the criminals have some inheirant difference then the people on the other side of the law?

Pursue a variety of personal agendas, including personal vendettas, hiding/running from someone/thing, or just having been booted out of your corp/army/organisation and know nothing else but fighting and breaking, and thus, making the best of what little you learned in your life.

QUOTE
As a runner, you have the choice to mire oneself in that great murky grey, or rise above it. Or if you're particularly anti-social, descend below it.

And one's above is the other's below. I doupt that, in the world of SR, you could get everyone to agree on *one* thing that's considered good. Even Tanamous members could well be convinced they're on the 'good' side. Countrary to that, in a moralist system like D&D, even the most evil demon KNOWS he is evil, meaning he has the same moral scale everyone has, and just consciously chose to be t3h ub3r ev3l!!!11!

QUOTE
You get to play with a lot more toys on the other side of the fence. But there's also a lot less freedom, individuality, and ability to make a choice on that side of the fence.

There's more. You get to live much freer if you don't choose the path of criminal shadowrun activity. You can walk down the street and pass a lone star surveillance drone without having to worry about your face being identified, and a FRT being dispatched to deal with you, capture you and toss you nto an orbital prison facility for the next four hundred years. You get a regular, dependable income, and won't have to live by the day. You get all the anemities a SIN brings - from being able to get loans from banks to being able to buy cars and anything legally. And you get the good feeling of being on the 'right' side; right being the majority in society.
Freedom? There's not unlimited freedom in the shadows. There's the constant fear of someone closing up to you, be it someone you crossed, the law, or Lofwyr's agents. There's the 'shadow paranoia'. There's never knowing whom you can trust. You may call that freedom, as in "I can do whatever I want and the law can kiss my chromed ass". I don't see much freedom in this. Rather, desperation and a decent amount of "fuck you", but not freedom.

QUOTE
The point is, the PC has that choice. Everyone else is just following orders, be it from their manager, CEO, or stockholders.

Depends on how NPCs are played. I, for one, assume they have personal agendas too they try to push, however limited they are within their social group. In a corp, a character could well conspire against his superiors, sell out others, even plan to kill his boss and get his job .... same with the mob (just that 'kill the boss' is a far more likely option there). Also, Reporter NPCs might want to get that story published no matter what, mechanic NPCs might want to raise money so they can pay for the Gene Therapy that would cure their Corea Huntington.
The point is, in SR, EVERYONE has an agenda. At least in SR according to hermit. You may play the world otherwise, but from what I read from MJLBB, I am closer to how the devs intended SR to be played.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Penta)
Something I also add, though I imagine I can set off a debate:

Relevance - This is something I find essential. I remember reading ShadowBeat, London, and similar SR1-SR2 era books. I started with SR in about, oh, 1994-95. It had...zero relevance to me.

I'm going to be very oppositional to stuff I've heard here.

Forget the 80s. The 80s are dead.

Most players who might have entered SR since SR3 probably can't even *remember* the 80s very well. I can't, and I was born in 1983.

It has no relevance. Like a game based off of themes from the 1970s.

If all SR gaming must have 'throwback' characteristics, which I suppose is inevitable...Let the throwback be to, at most, the early 90s. Preferably the mid-90s.

Grunge. Nirvana. Alanis Morisette. A lot of people rediscovering just what it meant to be on the edge of technology.

Corporations not as independent actors (as much as they were in the 80s), but increasingly forced to cede power to governments and NGOs. That point where a lot of things seemed bright, but we had our first hints of darkness on the horizon.

(We can't abandon the idea of the extraterritorial megacorp, granted, but we can dial it back.)

As much as those who are 25-30 might have fond memories of the big hair 80s...

I don't. I don't even remember them.

Relevance? And what "relevance", pray tell, does D20 Modern or Godlike or D&D 1st edition have?

The point of playing one RPG instead of another is to enjoy a different experience specific to that RPG, right? Like, if I want to feel Arthurian I'll play D&D 1st edition. If I want to feel dead, I'll play Paranoia. If I want to feel smart, I'll play some old boxed Avalon Hill game from the 70s like Kingmaker or something.

When does "relevance" come into the equation?

When I play Shadowrun, I play it in order to have fun with the 80s. I've posted a couple characters in the main forum and all of them are 80s caricatures. And the 80s aren't totally irrelevant...80s music is enjoying an upswing in popularity.

I just don't understand how people can think the 80s are dead. If the 80s were truly dead, we would no longer have mullets, now would we?
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Bomber)
OMG - rational, mature, non-combative debate!


What's wrong with combative debate?
SR4-WTF?
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jun 5 2005, 10:38 AM)
QUOTE (Bomber @ Jun 4 2005, 06:25 PM)
OMG - rational, mature, non-combative debate!


What's wrong with combative debate?

*wounds Ronin in the groin*

Nothing....when you are on the giving end. cyber.gif
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (SR4-WTF?)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jun 5 2005, 10:38 AM)
QUOTE (Bomber @ Jun 4 2005, 06:25 PM)
OMG - rational, mature, non-combative debate!


What's wrong with combative debate?

*wounds Ronin in the groin*

Nothing....when you are on the giving end. cyber.gif

*dies of massive blood loss*

Actually, I think it's fun to both give and recieve. Only through Homeric style struggle are both sides strengthened. Or, as someone once put it, any viewpoint which needs to be shielded from rational attacks is not a viewpoint worth having.
tjn
QUOTE (hermit)
Sorry, that cayme out much harsher than I intended. smile.gif

S'ok

QUOTE
Pursue a variety of personal agendas, including personal vendettas, hiding/running from someone/thing, or just having been booted out of your corp/army/organisation and know nothing else but fighting and breaking, and thus, making the best of what little you learned in your life.

I'm talking from an overall game design stand point. Why choose the standard PC type to be a criminal in the default setting of the game? Not specific cases of what may have drove individuals to a Shadowrunning lifestyle. What makes being a criminal work in the default setting?

Those laws themselves are the only difference between a law-abiding citizen and the Shadowrunner. Laws are a form of societal control, ostensibly for the safety and protection of all. But in SR's dystopian seting the protection of the law gets shifted dramatically towards the protection of the few in power. But it still is a form of societal control.

So we place our protagonists in situations which highlight this discrepancy in order for them to come to their own decision. If the protagonists don't come into conflict with the corruption of the law they won't come to the point of climax. And the reaction to that relevation is one of the defining themes of Shadowrun, in my opinion.

QUOTE
And one's above is the other's below. I doupt that, in the world of SR, you could get everyone to agree on *one* thing that's considered good. Even Tanamous members could well be convinced they're on the 'good' side. Countrary to that, in a moralist system like D&D, even the most evil demon KNOWS he is evil, meaning he has the same moral scale everyone has, and just consciously chose to be t3h ub3r ev3l!!!11!

Personally, I've never been a fan of absolutes, in SR or D&D. I tried to avoid utilizing words such as "good" or "evil" because of the reactionary nature that they provoke. The defining character of the murky grey, for me, is apathy and the unwillingness to make a stand. Shadowrunners, by being forced to confront the corruption of the system are forced to make hard choices about their own morality, rather then just floating along in their life and letting the laws of the society dictate their morality.

QUOTE
There's more. You get to live much freer if you don't choose the path of criminal shadowrun activity. You can walk down the street and pass a lone star surveillance drone without having to worry about your face being identified, and a FRT being dispatched to deal with you, capture you and toss you nto an orbital prison facility for the next four hundred years.

True, there is less a risk of physical imprisonment, but in SR's setting that's not always the case. If a LS detective has to meet his quota, getting the right criminal is less important then closing the case. Besides, no one is truely innocent, right?

But what does this physical freedom cost? Adherance to corrupt, self-serving laws that benefit the few. It's a mental shackle that the average chummer never critically thinks about.

QUOTE
You get a regular, dependable income, and won't have to live by the day. You get all the anemities a SIN brings - from being able to get loans from banks to being able to buy cars and anything legally.

But those are the lucky ones. Those without the cooshy jobs in the corporate towers have to struggle and grind out a living and barely making ends meet. To say nothing of those without SINs.

QUOTE
And you get the good feeling of being on the 'right' side; right being the majority in society.

This goes back to the apathy of the murky grey and the reliance upon dictated laws to guide their morality. Personally, this lack of critical thought isn't a good basis for a protagonist. It just isn't interesting if the character only "goes with the flow."

QUOTE
Freedom? There's not unlimited freedom in the shadows.

I didn't use the word unlimited. There is no such thing as unlimited freedom. Something will always limit a character's freedoms.

QUOTE
You may call that freedom, as in "I can do whatever I want and the law can kiss my chromed ass". I don't see much freedom in this. Rather, desperation and a decent amount of "fuck you", but not freedom.

It isn't "I can do whatever I want" (that's a part of the power-vengence fantasies I spoke of earlier). It's the fact that the protagonist has the oppertunity to say "I choose to do X, not because of the laws, not because someone tells me, or any other outside reason. I choose to do X, because I have chosen to do it."

In the default setting the criminal is most apt to make that leap to a dynamic and interesting character.

QUOTE
Depends on how NPCs are played. I, for one, assume they have personal agendas too they try to push, however limited they are within their social group.

The emphasis is mine, because that's the crux. The protagonists are largely free of the limitations of their social group because their being criminals. They have to make the personal choice to save or splatter. The murky grey just relies upon the accepted societal norms to dictate their morality. The Shadowrunner is forced to make that choice for themselves.

QUOTE
The point is, in SR, EVERYONE has an agenda. At least in SR according to hermit. You may play the world otherwise, but from what I read from MJLBB,

Of course they have their own agenda, I never said otherwise. But their agendas are almost always completely selfish in orientation, and limited by their circumstances. They might have plans to get that promotion, or whatever, but they never stop to critically think about their choices. What does it mean to "restructure" a department? How many people were fired in the sake of the bottom line? Is it the right thing to do? Is saving 0.06% worth ruining hundreds of lives?

Or what about the outcome of an "unannounced public trial?" Was the information gleaned worth the death of fifty kids? Would the exec even know that his decision (that consisted of a verbal go over the phone) was responsible for killing those kids?

Shadowrunners literally have the blood on their hands. They can see the concequences of their choices. The choice and it's concequences are in their face, forcing them to critically think about the situation. Unlike the exec, who sees only the fact that sales rose 3.54% over the last quarter.

QUOTE
I am closer to how the devs intended SR to be played.

I'm going to refrain from responding to this.

EDIT- Wow, I apologize for the length.
SR4-WTF?
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (SR4-WTF? @ Jun 5 2005, 10:40 AM)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jun 5 2005, 10:38 AM)
QUOTE (Bomber @ Jun 4 2005, 06:25 PM)
OMG - rational, mature, non-combative debate!


What's wrong with combative debate?

*wounds Ronin in the groin*

Nothing....when you are on the giving end. cyber.gif

*dies of massive blood loss*

Actually, I think it's fun to both give and recieve. Only through Homeric style struggle are both sides strengthened. Or, as someone once put it, any viewpoint which needs to be shielded from rational attacks is not a viewpoint worth having.

It was probably the irrational attacks that Bomber was thinking of.
tjn
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
When does "relevance" come into the equation?

Cyberpunk was in large part relevant and a reaction to the 80's, and as SR was inspired in part by the genre, I can understand the attraction to some is centered in the 80's.

If SR's setting had remained static and the default setting was still 2050, we wouldn't be having this debate.

But SR's setting isn't static, but rather it's dynamic and advances (more or less) at the same pace as the real world. And in my opinon, that means it should stay relevant and contemporary to the current times, just like the original cyberpunk genre was contemporary to it's own times. Within the bounds of SR's setting, of course.
Ellery
I'm not quite sure where people get the idea that international corporations were more dominant in the 1980s than they are now. People were more aware of them; now we take them for granted. But, for example, which company owns Chrysler now?

SR does have an 80's feel in some ways (especially when it comes to electronics!), but changing the feel doesn't mean abandoning cyberpunk and the idea of megacorporations that are effectively countries unto themselves. That game wouldn't be Shadowrun. To some extent, the game can be shifted into a 00's feel, but better still is to make the setting timeless. Then we can still play it in another 5 years without feeling as though it's an anachronism.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (SR4-WTF?)
[EDIT] The reason I don't consider it uber critical is that the GM can treat it as an opinion of the facts given from one point of view and perhaps with some errors. Why can't a villian lie in a motivation revealing monologe? What is the whole of all the true, objective facts? A level of unknown is then retained. [/EDIT]

I'm fine with that, but in my opinion it should be backed up by the book that that could be the case—specifically, it shouldn't be supported heavily in the game information sections, and should be cast into doubt in at least one significant way in the in-game sections (for instance, take all the mystery surrounding Juan Atzcapotzalco—I don't believe that's been spelled out anywhere). To give credit where credit is due, I believe the Ibn Eisa affair has also been left with very little hard information, but neither of those of those have really come into the limelight.
QUOTE
I think suggestions like […] Mystery fall mostly under setting, as I'm not sure what kind of mechanics go along with them.

That's certainly true, it isn't a mechanical issue. However, it's something that's been changing in ways that I consider undesirable, so it's definitely something I wanted to mention.
QUOTE
I will say that it is tough though, when writing current material, to include the unanswered questions. Like Deus, that was mentioned. I mean, we couldn't really leave the Arcology sitting shut down in Seattle without addressing and dealing with it again at some point.

I understand that—for the record, even though I thought things like what I mentioned made it a much weaker book, it's still in my top five list of all-time best Shadowrun books. That being said, at the least it would have been nice if there were still some serious doubt as to whether or not Fuchi was involved, as opposed to a "oh, yeah, it wasn't them" attitude. I'd have liked to see less information on what woke Deus up in the GM information section, and more on how it might have happened—with hooks ranging from accidents to viruses to Fuchi to any number of things. Certainly we as GMs can make anything we want up, but at least in my opinion it makes it better if even the players who have read the thing cover-to-cover and run the Arc six times are still left guessing about which possibility is true in this particular version of the game. When it comes to the resolution of the Arcology and Brainscan, I would have liked to see a few things—first off, the characters getting a counteroffer from Overwatch (of some variety, even if they can only pay in vast amounts of fake IDs and permits or whatever) rather than "oh, we're the good guys, scrap your run with the Johnson and come help us kill an AI". Optimally, I'd have liked to see the players never get told what they're being hired to go into the Arcology to do, or better yet be actively lied to about it—appealing to the characters' sense of higher good is an easy non-starter for a lot of groups.

More on the question of governmental power later.

~J
tjn
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I'd have liked to see less information on what woke Deus up in the GM information section, and more on how it might have happened

While on some level I kinda agree, but having players who don't metagame is better. If you have players who are capable of seperating IC and OOC knowledge and are adaptable enough to break from canon, there isn't a problem in putting the pieces together so that they make sense for the GM.

But from a storytelling perspective, having major unanswered questions is a significant put-off to the reader. While the ideal is that people answer the questions for themselves in play, that doesn't help sell books. But answering the questions raised in the supplement will, in that those that don't have a group to play with will stop buying if they have no prospects to ever see the conclusion and those with groups would only pick up the supplements that they would directly use. By writing a story (with a beginning, middle and end) in addition to the supplement, you hook more buyers.
Ellery
Leaving completely incredible, impossible-seeming things unexplained is a significant put-off. It looks as though the details weren't fleshed out because the author didn't want to expose the impossibility of the scenario.

However, leaving plausible things ambiguous--as with UB/bug spirits--is a fine tactic, and one widely used by mystery stories (which are rather popular; one could look at the Harry Potter series as equal parts mystery and fantasy). Eventually, one uncovers the mystery, but it doesn't have to happen in a single sourcebook. Revealing details over several books is a good way to sell more books (from the publisher's point of view), and to extend the suspense and excitement (from the reader's point of view).
Kagetenshi
QUOTE
While on some level I kinda agree, but having players who don't metagame is better. If you have players who are capable of seperating IC and OOC knowledge and are adaptable enough to break from canon, there isn't a problem in putting the pieces together so that they make sense for the GM.

I disagree wholeheartedly. For example, I'm in a group that is currently in Chicago late on August 22, 2055. For reference, that's the day reports of giant insects attacking people first hit Eagle Security, and the day before the containment wall goes up. We've been separating IC/OOC knowledge fairly well—we actually ended up walking into a UB building almost totally unarmed, and gave the GM quite a start by doing so. We know that any number of things can be changed from canon. The fact remains, though, that at some basic level we, the players, know what's going on. Considering that Bug City is a plotline that happened about a decade ago means that I can't expect anything else, but if someone is keeping more up-to-date there's definitely a lot to be gained in the atmosphere of a game by not knowing exactly what's going on, or better yet having only a vague idea.
QUOTE
However, leaving plausible things ambiguous--as with UB/bug spirits--is a fine tactic, and one widely used by mystery stories (which are rather popular; one could look at the Harry Potter series as equal parts mystery and fantasy). Eventually, one uncovers the mystery, but it doesn't have to happen in a single sourcebook. Revealing details over several books is a good way to sell more books (from the publisher's point of view), and to extend the suspense and excitement (from the reader's point of view).

I guess that's more what I wanted to say. Things like the UB becoming established in canon as just another do-gooder organization that has ads in sourcebooks, no more or less important than Karl Kombatmage, significantly in advance of their being revealed as what they are is more what I'm looking for.

Not enough sleep last night, apologies for coherency breakdown. I'll try to clarify when I get my words straight.

~J
tjn
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
The fact remains, though, that at some basic level we, the players, know what's going on.

Without having a shared basis of understanding, collective storytelling can not happen; that basic level must be there or we never agree on anything that happens.

When we sit down to play SR we all come in with preconcieved notions about the basics of what goes on. There's Johnsons, some conflict, a dash of moral ambiguity, and a fusion of science fiction and fantasy. It's the details that we may or may not know.

But knowing (or not knowing) the details is a personal choice. Some like the heavy air of uncertainty as they uncover mysteries for the first time. Others could run through the same module for the fifth time, so long as they had fun. Regardless, it's a personal choice for that particular group.

QUOTE
Considering that Bug City is a plotline that happened about a decade ago means that I can't expect anything else.

So long as the players are willing to roll with departures from canon, it's fully possible to run Bug City with a heavy air of uncertainty. Want to throw the players for a loop? Make the UB the good guys.

Change it so that they're the only group of people who know about the threat the bugs present. They organize bug hunts, and draw most of their recruits from those who have lost family members to the bugs and play off their need for justice and revenge. Sure they empower people: they empower people with the courage to kick insect ass. Well, try to anyways.

Have a multinational corp with some amount of influence be the real haven of the bugs. Have Ares and the UB shine on primetime commercials with large lighting behind the symbols. Make the UB the heroes after the bugs fall. And once, after the players' guards are down, then corrupt the UB - especially those that fought side by side with the PC's.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (tjn)
Without having a shared basis of understanding, collective storytelling can not happen; that basic level must be there or we never agree on anything that happens.

We need a shared basis of understanding, yes, the shared basis of the history of the world. Bug City is now history, which is why I go on to say that I can't expect anything else. Brainscan is arguably history by now but much less so, for example. We don't need to all understand the reasons behind events in progress.

And just in case you're going to answer "so don't read the book", a decent chunk of our group both plays and GMs.

QUOTE (tjn @ Jun 5 2005, 06:30 PM)
QUOTE
Considering that Bug City is a plotline that happened about a decade ago means that I can't expect anything else.

So long as the players are willing to roll with departures from canon, it's fully possible to run Bug City with a heavy air of uncertainty. Want to throw the players for a loop? Make the UB the good guys.

Change it so that they're the only group of people who know about the threat the bugs present. They organize bug hunts, and draw most of their recruits from those who have lost family members to the bugs and play off their need for justice and revenge. Sure they empower people: they empower people with the courage to kick insect ass. Well, try to anyways.

Have a multinational corp with some amount of influence be the real haven of the bugs. Have Ares and the UB shine on primetime commercials with large lighting behind the symbols. Make the UB the heroes after the bugs fall. And once, after the players' guards are down, then corrupt the UB - especially those that fought side by side with the PC's.

I can do all those things. Guess what game it isn't afterwards?

~J
tjn
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
We don't need to all understand the reasons behind events in progress.

Again, that's your belief. I personally feel that it would sell more, and thus be better for the game overall, if the events in progress were presented as a story without any major holes for the GM to be forced to fill in.

It allows GMs who are either lazy or pressed for time to have a default to work with, it allows players to have a better basis for understanding, and it sells the books to those who haven't a prayer of ever actually playing in a game.

Now there are some that like that heavy feel of uncertainty when they game, and there is nothing wrong with that. A few modifications to canon and suddenly the players are now suspecting everything they once held to be "true." But that requires a willingness to modify canon to suit one's tastes.

QUOTE
I can do all those things. Guess what game it isn't afterwards?

Does it still have Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, Trolls or even Dragons?

Does it still have large, multinational corporations that have more influence then many governments put together?

Does it still have people wielding magic side by side with those who replace their body parts with machinery?

All wrapped up in a dystopian future?

Personally, I'd hafta say it's Shadowrun. But maybe I missed a game when perusing my local gaming store.
Critias
Great. Y'know, I was just thinking to myself, "we really need another conversation to devolve into a what matters more, mechanics or setting, argument."
Kagetenshi
As far as I can tell we're arguing over what parts of setting are important and what is or is not desirable when creating setting. Mechanics, while certainly part of the original discussion, are not part of our sub-argument.
QUOTE (tjn)
Personally, I'd hafta say it's Shadowrun.

And personally I'd have to say it isn't, no more than The Lord of the Rings is still The Lord of the Rings if you switch up the climax so it's Sam fighting Frodo for the ring at the end rather than Smeagol.

~J
scoundrel
QUOTE (tjn)
Again, that's your belief.  I personally feel that it would sell more, and thus be better for the game overall, if the events in progress were presented as a story without any major holes for the GM to be forced to fill in.

It's very possible to tell a good story without bringing everything into the light at once. This is a fact well known and oft-used by authors of stories that span more than one book.
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