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The Stainless Steel Rat
I don't think I'm alone here thinking that the Full-Autofire rules need some tweaking. I just can't seem to wrap my head around the concept that the more bullets you fire the less likely it is that ANY of them will hit the target. This all-or-nothing approach is... less than desirable. I realize that in this game we aren't trying to simulate reality, we're trying to model it. A subtle but important distinction, IMHO.

Anyway, I'm thinking about introducing a new mechanic to my campaign, and really wanted to get a Dumpshock consensus on it, so please be brutally honest and tell me what the major holes in this idea are so I can fix them if I can (before my PCs capitalize...) First I want to say upfront that this will add another layer of complexity and time to an already slow system, but it beats the all-or-nothing concept and is faster than the old roll-for-each-round system, which may be the most accurate model.

OK, first determine # of bullets fired (I'll have more to say on his later)

Divide # of bullets into two groups - Damage and Spray

Treat the bullets in the Damage group just like the core rules (each gives +1 to power level and +1 to recoil, every 3rd adds 1 to damage code)

The bullets in the Spray group will be used to lower the target number. These will not add to the recoil for purposes of TGT#. The number of bullets required to reduce the TGT# by 1 depends on the range. I haven't yet play-tested this, but I'm thinking:

Short: 2 bullets of spray per -1 tgt#
Med: 3 bullets of spray per -1 tgt#
Long: 4 bullets of spray per -1 tgt#
Extreme: 7 bullets of spray per -1 tgt#

[Edit] Also thinking each -1 to tgt# will result in a +1 to a target's dodge attempt [/Edit]

What I'm trying to model is that in some cases a gunner will be trying to saturate an area rather than trying to put every round into the target, and the ratio of Damage to Spray models how tight a grouping the gunner is trying for.

The main thing I'm worried about is a PC doing some number crunching, and determining the optimum shot (X total rounds, with Y allocated to damage, and Z allocated to spray) and doing that every time. Having some experience with Auto-Fire IRL, I know that it is incredibly difficult to fire an exact # of rounds, but the gunner will have some control. I propose having the player declare a Short, Medium, or Long burst, then roll the following table to see how many rounds they actually fire:

Short Burst: 3+1d6
Medium Burst: 6+1d6
Long Burst: 9+1d6

So there it is: One extra roll per auto-fire action, and a little more tgt# calculation for a big jump in realism.

I need feedback!
Modesitt
I'd almost never use anything but sprays. I don't need any recoil-compensating accessories and I hit just as often or more often than the guy going for deadly bursts. As I'm shooting with lower target numbers, I'm more likely to get more successes and stage up damage to deadly levels.

Note that this means automatic weapons are more accurate than sniper rifles within their ranges, as they can simply flick on their mag vision and shoot a ton of bullets for lower target numbers than the sniper could ever dream of.

Edit: Quick and dirty solution(as I try not to just be a critic): Instead of lower target numbers, take a page from the CC and improve the Searching Fire rules. Make it an either/or thing - Either Damage or Spray. Every bullet you let spray is a bonus die on the attack test, but if you use this rule you can't stage up the damage with successes. This means you're much more likely to score a hit, but as you aren't aiming at as much, you don't do as much damage.
The Stainless Steel Rat
QUOTE

Note that this means automatic weapons are more accurate than sniper rifles within their ranges, as they can simply flick on their mag vision and shoot a ton of bullets for lower target numbers than the sniper could ever dream of.

Well, I tried to account for that by increasing the number of spray rounds required at farther ranges. Example:

Runner is firing full-auto at Goon with a 7M SMG at extreme range.

Declares a Long Burst, rolls a 4 on the burst-die, so lets off 13 rounds.

Allocates 7 rounds to spray (-1 tgt#) 6 to Damage (+6 tgt#, new DMG code 13D)

With his Rtg 3 Mag, base tgt# drops to 4, +6 for recoil, -1 for Spray = 9. Then calculate other modifiers as normal and you are easily looking at tgt# 12+. Hardly as effective as Sniping (Unless Runner has some rediculous amount of recoil comp, but those rules are already broken - let me just try to fix one thing at a time)

Also, I'm not trying to be defensive - I want help finding the holes in this idea, and appreciate your input. I just don't see this as big an issue as you make it out. Can you break down an example to show broken-ness?
Edward
The first incorrect assumption is that you can not choose exactly how many rounds you wish to fire, using ether firing mode controls on the gun or a smart link system it is possible to choose the exact number of rounds you wish to expend. Although my firearms experience is limited to bolt action rifles and double barrelled shotguns I do appreciate what your saying as related to today’s weapons but SR weapons are typically equipped with electronic firing control and those few that are not do not warrant a separate mechanic.

What bothers me about the automatic fire rules is that the presence of a 9th and 10th bullets affects the accuracy of the first, this defies logic to my mind, are you really les likely to hit with at least one bullet if you fire 10 than if you fire 3.

Edward
RangerJoe
See also: searching fire rules. M&M, I think.
Mortax
QUOTE (Edward @ Jun 4 2005, 04:22 PM)
What bothers me about the automatic fire rules is that the presence of a 9th and 10th bullets affects the accuracy of the first, this defies logic to my mind, are you really les likely to hit with at least one bullet if you fire 10 than if you fire 3.

It's something that has always bugged me 2. My group is trying to work out a better mechanic now, I'm hoping we can figure something out.

Love the sig, by the way. rotfl.gif (Edward & RangerJoe)
The Stainless Steel Rat
Yeah, smartlinked gunners can definately choose the exact # of rounds fired. I should have been specific about that in my original post, so the randomized burst rule would not apply to those.

And as far as the 10th round affecting the accuracy of the first, the only feasible work-around is going back to the 1st ed rules: roll for every bullet. This sucks! Combat is already slow, that would bring it to a near standstill.
Herald of Verjigorm
An alternate work around would be to make all FA bursts as suppressive fire and increase the damage codes of SMGs and ARs.
Edward
This has been preposed before and I know it has issues.

When firing full auto take the highest dice rolled and work out how many bullets fired would result in that being a success, that number of bullets hit, number of successes is the number of dice that rolled that number (usually one)calculate damage based on eth number of bullets that hit.

Issues include the loss of a tactical decision on how many rounds to fire (always fire as many as you can afford to use) and interaction with dodging (do you use the number of bullets fired or that hit for dodge TN, and do if you could have scored net successes after dodge with even les bullets do you still hit with this lower number of bullets (the first bullet was still set on path before the 4th, why would the target be more able to dodge the 1st bullet because I later fired a 4th.

This is both bad for balance and to much trouble to calculate in game but it is the most logical way to deal with it I know without rewriting the entire mechanics from the ground up, they are working on that right now, but I doubt the problem will go away.

Edward
Modesitt
QUOTE
Runner is firing full-auto at Goon with a 7M SMG at extreme range.

Declares a Long Burst, rolls a 4 on the burst-die, so lets off 13 rounds.

Allocates 7 rounds to spray (-1 tgt#) 6 to Damage (+6 tgt#, new DMG code 13D)


Your example is wrong.

Billy Bob is walking along, when suddenly a punk goes by on a skateboard and pimp-slaps him, performing a Knockdown attack. Billy Bob fails the body test and hits the pavement hard. Growling, he gets to his feet and takes out his SMG. He's on a hill and the kid is going fast, so the sucker's out at extreme range already. Billy Bob has an SMG and a rating-3 imaging scope.

So he points it at the punk and does a medium burst, rolling a 3 and getting a 9-round burst. So he puts 7 into the first target as a spray and declares the other two is to shoot out the window behind the guy as a second target.

TN: 4, -1 for spray. 7M SMG, 13D damage.

There's no rule against using a scope even with autofire. If you want try obscenity, try running the above scenario, but remember tracers give -1 TN for every 3 shots fired at any range beyond short. They stack with scopes.
SpasticTeapot
Or, you can just rule each shot as a seperate shot. I'd also give the Uzi full-auto, but decrease the damage code of SMG's (except for a few exceptions) to 6L to reflect the fact that they use what I'm told is relatively weak ammo, and to maintain game balance.
Also, I present a particularly elegant bit of SMG design: the H&K MP7
http://www.hkpro.com/pdw
Arethusa
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
decrease the damage code of SMG's (except for a few exceptions) to 6L to reflect the fact that they use what I'm told is relatively weak ammo, and to maintain game balance.

Augh. Stop. This is beginning to hurt.
Critias
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
...decrease the damage code of SMG's (except for a few exceptions) to 6L to reflect the fact that they use what I'm told is relatively weak ammo...

Told by who that it's weak compared to what?

The frail, fleshy, parchment-wrapped husks that carry around (meta)human souls find even an individual round from a submachinegun terrifyingly potent, on average.
lorthazar
Want a touch more realism calculated the TN for that first bullet, roll for your attack, take the highest number and add the Recoil compensation then subtract your target number. That is how many bullets hit. From there you can decide if you want do staging, individual bullet hits, or santa claus leaving a log in the fire. indifferent.gif

Shrapnel
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
Also, I present a particularly elegant bit of SMG design: the H&K MP7
http://www.hkpro.com/pdw

From the HK Website:

4.6 x 30 Ammunition Technical Specifications
Cartridge Length: 1.5 in. 38mm
Projectile weight: 24.7 grains 1.6 g
Case length: 1.18 in. 30mm
Ballistics/Velocity: 2379 fps 725 m/sec
Ballistics/Muzzle Energy: 312 ft/lb 420 joule
Projectile composition: Copper plated solid steel bullet

Looks like somebody's jealous of the FN 5.7x28... wink.gif

As far as full auto bursts are concerned, you can already split them into bursts of 3, correct? Why not fire multiple bursts at the same target?

For instance, instead of a burst of 10 rounds, why couldn't you fire a burst of 3, 3, and 4 rounds each. It means 3 dice rolls instead of 1, but each earlier burst would have a higher chance to hit, and each later burst would suffer from previous recoil.

To make the damage easier, you could even add up the total number of rounds that hit and stage up accordingly, and use one damage roll for the entire burst, instead of resolving each burst separately.

Would this work?

(As a side note, I am still stuck in 2nd Edition, so have no way of knowing if this has already been addressed in 3rd Edition. Please go easy on me... smile.gif )
SpasticTeapot
QUOTE (Shrapnel)
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ Jun 4 2005, 06:34 PM)
Also, I present a particularly elegant bit of SMG design: the H&K MP7
http://www.hkpro.com/pdw

From the HK Website:

4.6 x 30 Ammunition Technical Specifications
Cartridge Length:  1.5 in.  38mm
Projectile weight:  24.7 grains  1.6 g
Case length:  1.18 in.  30mm
Ballistics/Velocity:  2379 fps  725 m/sec
Ballistics/Muzzle Energy:  312 ft/lb  420 joule
Projectile composition:  Copper plated solid steel bullet

Looks like somebody's jealous of the FN 5.7x28... wink.gif

As far as full auto bursts are concerned, you can already split them into bursts of 3, correct? Why not fire multiple bursts at the same target?

For instance, instead of a burst of 10 rounds, why couldn't you fire a burst of 3, 3, and 4 rounds each. It means 3 dice rolls instead of 1, but each earlier burst would have a higher chance to hit, and each later burst would suffer from previous recoil.

To make the damage easier, you could even add up the total number of rounds that hit and stage up accordingly, and use one damage roll for the entire burst, instead of resolving each burst separately.

Would this work?

(As a side note, I am still stuck in 2nd Edition, so have no way of knowing if this has already been addressed in 3rd Edition. Please go easy on me... smile.gif )

Actually, that's what we do already. I guess it's technically reasonable to say "I fire eight one-shot bursts" as opposed to "I fire three three-shot bursts". I will admit that reducing the damage to 6L would be a little stupid; what if we simply upped light pistols to 7M? A good shot with a small-ish pistol will kill you; a good shot with a "heavy" pistol (9M) just makes it a little bit easier.
weblife
Umm.. I fail to see the problem with the current rules?

RC of -6
Tracers (or even the ones from CC that doesn't reduce P)
9 bullets
Mag 3 vision

TN 4, any range

+3 recoil, -3 tracers, TN 4!

Damage 7M base for an SMG, 16D (or 20D if the overdamage is translated to +2P each).

Why, exactly, is it harder for you to hit? - Tracers are easy to get. RC -6 is not hard to get.

The Stainless Steel Rat
QUOTE (Modesitt)
So he points it at the punk and does a medium burst, rolling a 3 and getting a 9-round burst.  So he puts 7 into the first target as a spray and declares the other two is to shoot out the window behind the guy as a second target.

TN: 4, -1 for spray.  7M SMG, 13D damage.


Here is the root miscommunication leading to our disagreement. The table that I put together is based on range:
  • Short: 2 bullets of spray per -1 tgt#
  • Med: 3 bullets of spray per -1 tgt#
  • Long: 4 bullets of spray per -1 tgt#
  • Extreme: 7 bullets of spray per -1 tgt#
In your example you used 2 rounds to reduce a target # at extreme range because of image magnification. I submit that image magnification does not actually move your target any closer to you, it simply lowers the base target number as though it were closer than it actually is. The number of spray rounds required will stay the same.

Now what do you think?
The Stainless Steel Rat
QUOTE (RangerJoe)
See also: searching fire rules. M&M, I think.

They're in the CC (pg.103 I think)

Have you had success using them? Every 3 rounds fired adds 3 to Tgt#, and provides an additional d6 for the firing test. Even with tracers that is a net +2 to tgt# for an additional die. Pack in a lot of RC and I'm sure you can make it worthwhile, I just don't like the idea of a rule that is supposed to make things easier to hit actually increase the tgt#.

Oh yeah, as a bonus the damage does not stage up.
Shrapnel
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot)
Actually, that's what we do already. I guess it's technically reasonable to say "I fire eight one-shot bursts" as opposed to "I fire three three-shot bursts". I will admit that reducing the damage to 6L would be a little stupid; what if we simply upped light pistols to 7M? A good shot with a small-ish pistol will kill you; a good shot with a "heavy" pistol (9M) just makes it a little bit easier.

As far as the "8 one-shot bursts", I thought the rules said bursts had to be at least 3 rounds or more, unless you run out of ammo on your last burst, then it would count as a short burst.

Also, as far as lowering the damage of SMGs using pistol ammunition, even pistol ammunition gets a considerable boost in velocity when fired out of a 10" barrel instead of a 4" barrel. The same would work in respect to rifle ammunition fired out of a short barrel, which would have lower velocity. For instance, IRL they currently have AR15 pistols, which usually have a 7 1/2"-11 1/2" barrel. If these were used as a SMG in the Shadowrun world, 6M or 7M would be more than reasonable for a damage code, due to the shorter barrel length, and lower velocity.

As for reducing the damage down to 6L, that has already been done for some of the smaller machine-pistols, such as the Scorpion, which tend to use weaker rounds such as .32 or .380. Most full-size SMGs tend to use at least a 9mm cartridge, and some use a .40. This higher pressure cartridge, combined with the slightly longer barrel length, could more than account for the 6M or 7M damage code. When you start talking about 9mm +P+, in combination with a 10" barrel, you are starting to reach the lower end of rifle velocities.

If you want some real fun, try some "weak" pistol ammunition in a 16" carbine. The extra barrel length makes quite a difference.

I personally leave most of the damage levels alone, and just take into account that most of the smaller pistols just use smaller cartridges. Of course, I am no expert on the subject. I do like the work that Raygun has already done on the subject, and I say it's worth looking at, if you haven't already. He seems to be the resident expert on the subject. Just my opinion, of course.
Modesitt
QUOTE
Here is the root miscommunication leading to our disagreement. The table that I put together is based on range:


No, the root is that I forgot to proofread my post. Originally, it was a Long Burst just like yours, then I changed it to a medium burst as that worked equally well.

It's simply a 7M SMG shooting at TN 3 in my example. Still, if you can't stage THAT up to deadly, you shouldn't be a runner.
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