Johnnycache
Jun 7 2005, 02:01 AM
I have two quick questions about physical barrier:
1: The spell says it forms a dome - but assumes you are on the ground. Could a levitating character use it to form a
bubble? 1.5 would be: Is the barrier mobile? (My mage is a scuba enthusist)
2: The whole "goes down if it gets hit with one heavy pistol shot" thing again - I've always read "Penetrated" to mean "reduced to zero BR" in that spell, my principle thought process being "Why are there rules for reduction and replenishment in BR if you can just shoot through it?" but I'm finding some people here have an . . . alternate view.
I'm mostly interested in thoughts on 1, because my group sees 2 my way
, but I'd like to hear arguments on both sides, if people feel like rehashing it. If the majority opinon on PB would be that it does go down, what change to drain would you recommend for re-desiging it to make it work like a standard barrier? Like a bubble shaped only, mobile, standard barrier version?
How much pressue could that take. . . ?
Mortax
Jun 7 2005, 02:15 AM
1. If it is a personal barrier, I'd say yes. I guess if not a personal, I'd prolly allow it to move if the target it was cast on was moving. Not sure if it is target area or target. If area, then no. But a personal barrier would work, less drain too.
2. I've always just treated it like armor, if it goes through then fine, but the barrier stays up. The may have made a change in 3rd I'm not aware of though, so keep this in mind. SR 2.5!!!! hehehe. Um, anyway, if the damage is large enough maybe, but an explosion that big would likely geek the mage anyway.
Hmmm, that reminds me, I need to finish making my adept that only cast barriers.... hehehe. Toss a grenade, the put high level blast barrer around the target......
Edit:
On the note of question one, I've never seen the text that says PB keeps air from flowwing or not, but I'm told that it doesn't. For your guy a custom personal water barrier spell might be good.
Or you could surge and get gills.
Sorry, couldn't resist the opertunity to make fun with surge.
Johnnycache
Jun 7 2005, 02:43 AM
I was gonna just say water molecules were
bigger then air molecules.
The SR 3 rules for the barrier say it can lose rating points like a normal barrier, but they come back at the start of a turn.
BUT they also say it dissapears entirely if an attack "penetrates" it - at issue is the little codicil that lets you shoot through barriers treating them as armor.
Mortax
Jun 7 2005, 02:45 AM
Ah, that's a change from second. That's why I'm off.
My group doesn't like some of the rules in both 2nd and 3rd, so we play a hybrid.
Now I just have to fix deckers......
SR4-WTF?
Jun 7 2005, 04:06 AM
As a side note water molecules are actually smaller than most atmospheric components. The MW of H20 is only 1+1+16=18. The two most common atmospheric gases that make up roughly 99% of the atmosphere (outside of water vapour), nitrogen and oxygen, are MW 14+14=28 and 16+16=32 respectively.
Water has some very wierd intermolecular action going on that holds it together. However given enough pressure differential, from say traveling into the ocean depths, that binding force could be overcome and the water would pass through an air permeable membrane at a disturbingly rapid rate. It would possibily be fresh water through a reverse osmosis effect as the larger salt molecules get held back, but salt water vs. fresh water just changes the way you drown.
note that the (crazy) FAQ rules concerning the weight-resisting properties of barrier spells will probably put a damper on your plans, if you choose to follow the FAQ.
heh. i mades me a pun.
Mortax
Jun 7 2005, 04:55 AM
nice, I like the joke.
And yes, I'm aware that water molocules are larger, that was more my mind going off on a tangent. With all the Calculus I have to do, it does that. <g>
Anyway, what are the weightbearing rules? I'd go with something along the lines of either:
1. How much weight can something of a given barrier rating hold.
2. Levitate spells allow you to lift based on magic rating successes ect, somthing similar for preasure resistance of spells?
Just make sure you don't go too deep.
Johnnycache
Jun 7 2005, 07:46 AM
| QUOTE (mfb) |
note that the (crazy) FAQ rules concerning the weight-resisting properties of barrier spells will probably put a damper on your plans, if you choose to follow the FAQ.
heh. i mades me a pun. |
Well, I figure that's focused weight on a thin plane. This will be distributed weight on a perfect sphere, so it should take a little more before it starts to go, right?
And sr4, don't be silly. Water is clearly larger then air.
Herald of Verjigorm
Jun 7 2005, 02:09 PM
If you can get a sea spirit, you don't need anything else (well, except for a way to deal with the beasties down there). Check the CC section on diving where it mentions magical aids.
To form a bubble you would need to stop the air from going out of the top of the dome, not stop the water from coming in the bottom, though the surface tension of water should help you out a lot. Making a sphere would make more sense assuming that the barrier would be less permeable to water.
In the interest of encouraging creative uses of magic I would definately allow it, but probably come up with some leakage rate based on the barrier force so that it wouldn't work as well as shape water or that breath underwater spell for this. Maybe have it last force x magic minutes, or something like that. Have it last half as long with a hemi-spherical barrier as a spherical one. Of course you would also be running out of air in there reasonably quickly.
Also every 10 meters of water will compress the air by half in an open shape, or double the leakage rate for a sphere. If the magician makes a sphere the barrier should implode at some depth unless they can reshape it, or have an air tank to add air countering the pressure as they go down.
Shadow
Jun 7 2005, 06:17 PM
If you combine it with alter pressure and temp then I think it would work well. That is the basis for a Deep Sea Explorer I made.
Oh and I forgot shape water. Maybe you could just use shape water to make a bubble of water or something.
Johnnycache
Jun 8 2005, 02:38 AM
You guys think hard. I just want a bubble that doesn't shrink or leak, and by bubble, I mean sphere. Barrier's harder to cast then oxygenate or summoning a weak water spirit, and the only added benefit would be keeping my stuff dry...
Also, what about just a sphereoid physical barrier, suspended around the character . . .because I decided that'd be usefull while levitating. And by usefull, I mean freaking cool looking.
The real benefit is one spell that does many many things. For instance why learn levitate if you can form a physical barrier underneath yourself and move it around at will to fly. Each spell you can replace with a general purpose one is 5 karma or whatever saved. If you let people go too far with this kind of thing they can be the ubermage while learning only a handful of spells and unbalance the game. Thats why when somone comes up with a cool not exactly as intended use for a spell I like to let them do it, but make it less effective somehow than the spell devoted to doing that in more ways than simply higher drain.
nezumi
Jun 8 2005, 05:11 PM
That's what the drain code is for. The difference between an M and an S code, especially when already sustaining other spells, can be substantial. Although truthfully, casting your sphere of coolness and flying around like the bubble man is easier on the mage drain and sustaining wise than bullet barrier and levitate.
Johnnycache
Jun 8 2005, 05:21 PM
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| That's what the drain code is for. The difference between an M and an S code, especially when already sustaining other spells, can be substantial. Although truthfully, casting your sphere of coolness and flying around like the bubble man is easier on the mage drain and sustaining wise than bullet barrier and levitate. |
No, no, again you guys with the physics.
The sphere won't actually lift me, just stay centered on me if something else does. I was anticipating having to use some other motive means, such as levitating. Which would then make it a little harder then bullet barrier and levitate, since hit would be Pbarrier++ and levitate.
SpasticTeapot
Jun 8 2005, 05:51 PM
| QUOTE (Johnnycache) |
| QUOTE (nezumi @ Jun 8 2005, 11:11 AM) | | That's what the drain code is for. The difference between an M and an S code, especially when already sustaining other spells, can be substantial. Although truthfully, casting your sphere of coolness and flying around like the bubble man is easier on the mage drain and sustaining wise than bullet barrier and levitate. |
No, no, again you guys with the physics. The sphere won't actually lift me, just stay centered on me if something else does. I was anticipating having to use some other motive means, such as levitating. Which would then make it a little harder then bullet barrier and levitate, since hit would be Pbarrier++ and levitate. |
I personally like the idea of a spell that centers you in the middle of the sphere, allowing you to roll around. You could squash people for force(L) damage plus a high chance of knockdown, and you'd likely do little more than bounce a little if you fell off of a 15' ledge.
The name of the spell?
Rory's Improved Hamster Ball.
Nikoli
Jun 8 2005, 05:58 PM
ROFL. But, if you take the Geasa "Change name to Nibbles" the damage increases to Force+2(L)
Apathy
Jun 8 2005, 06:11 PM
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE | QUOTE (Rev @ Jun 8 2005, 11:42 AM)
The real benefit is one spell that does many many things. For instance why learn levitate if you can form a physical barrier underneath yourself and move it around at will to fly. Each spell you can replace with a general purpose one is 5 karma or whatever saved. If you let people go too far with this kind of thing they can be the ubermage while learning only a handful of spells and unbalance the game. Thats why when somone comes up with a cool not exactly as intended use for a spell I like to let them do it, but make it less effective somehow than the spell devoted to doing that in more ways than simply higher drain. |
QUOTE (nezumi @ Jun 8 2005, 11:11 AM)
That's what the drain code is for. The difference between an M and an S code, especially when already sustaining other spells, can be substantial.
|
To me, this is like saying that since a Formula 1 racecar is more expensive than a Jeep, that you should be able to go cross country in it with no penalty. Just because one spell has a higher drain code, doesn't mean that it should be able to do everything that lower drain code spells of a similar type could do. YMMV
John Campbell
Jun 8 2005, 06:39 PM
On the other hand, the position that more general, higher drain spells shouldn't be able to accomplish things that there are more specific spells for is like arguing that you shouldn't be able to go off-road in an Abrams because then there'd be no reason to get a jeep.
Some spells have effects that overlap with other spells. Some spells fully include the effects of other spells (Manabolt vs. Slay (Elf) is a pretty unarguable example of that). The Shadowrun system does a pretty good job of making the more general spells more costly to cast than the less general ones, so I don't see that this is a problem.
I don't think that the canon Physical Barrier should be able to keep out water, though. As described, it should be permeable by pretty much any fluid, even ones with big chunky molecules. (It doesn't say "size of an air molecule"...)
But it shouldn't be difficult to design a barrier spell that was watertight.
nezumi
Jun 8 2005, 07:35 PM
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| To me, this is like saying that since a Formula 1 racecar is more expensive than a Jeep, that you should be able to go cross country in it with no penalty. Just because one spell has a higher drain code, doesn't mean that it should be able to do everything that lower drain code spells of a similar type could do. YMMV |
I think you're misunderstanding my intent then (at least in part). Increased reflexes +3 has a higher damage code than magic fingers, but they're not interchangable. However, Trid Phantasm has a higher drain code than say Improved Invisibility, and they're both in the same category (visual only physical indirect illusions). I'd be willing to let someone use Trid Phantasm to 'jury rig' improved invisibility by hiding himself inside of something, or making himself look like an average security guard, or simply appear to be an empty segment of room.
Some GMs won't let a more generic, more powerful spell take the place of a more specialized sibling. That's the GM's call. In my games though, I don't mind doing that. After all, if you're using Trid Phantasm when all you really need is the much easier visual-only mask spell, well you get to suffer the Deadly drain.
In this case, he's using a barrier spell to work as a bullet barrier (which makes sense), as well as a portable support (which would be GMs call). I don't use barrier spells, and haven't seen them used much, so I haven't had to make calls like if they can move around, what they let in, etc. But it's a neat idea.
Nikoli
Jun 8 2005, 07:50 PM
One slight problem with Trid Phantasm. It only works on willing subjects. Random folks just walking by would be considered unwilling. But, a skillfull fast talking mage could draw in a crowd, subtley convince them thant something coming through the door is good for them and they suddenly become willing. But using it to look like a lamp while standing in the corner is likly to just net you some funny looks and some questions from not so helpful guards.
Herald of Verjigorm
Jun 8 2005, 08:04 PM
No, that's entertainment.
Nikoli
Jun 8 2005, 08:09 PM
Ah, I get those confuzzled sometimes. Thanks
weblife
Jun 8 2005, 08:10 PM
But isn't this spell completely useless?
The TN to cast it is 6. That is, for every 6 dice you have, you get one level of barrier rating.
Most people will be lucky to get a barrier 3 from a single casting.
Standard glass is barrier 2, cheap material/normal tires are barrier 3. Making a ramp in front of a normal car would be near insignificant, the cars own weight would crush the barrier. Even with a slanted impact to flip the car rather than take it head on.
Any normal person could punch through it, like poking a fist through a tough plastic bag.
Not to mention that the standard spell is immobile and lets in gases. If it lets in gases, then water will get in too.
What you need is a completely different spell. And I think your needs are covered by Shape Water. This spell lets you manipulate water into a semisolid state, as in, you can stand on it and move it around, only getting wet if you wear something the water can soak into.
You won't be in a bubble, but you can shape the water as a bubble, and make the inner surface support your weight. - And its mobile.
Shadow
Jun 8 2005, 08:47 PM
| QUOTE (Shadow) |
| Oh and I forgot shape water. Maybe you could just use shape water to make a bubble of water or something. |
Combine it with oxyegenate and your set.
weblife
Jun 8 2005, 09:02 PM
| QUOTE (Shadow) |
| QUOTE (Shadow @ Jun 7 2005, 10:17 AM) | | Oh and I forgot shape water. Maybe you could just use shape water to make a bubble of water or something. |
Combine it with oxyegenate and your set.
|
Or just bring air bottles.. Mundane can be a powerful complement to magic, as its no maintenance and reliable.
Shadow
Jun 8 2005, 10:09 PM
Well yeah but what about the carbon dioxide build up? You would need someway to scrub the air clean. Or you could just wear scuba gear. I was thinking with Oxygenate you bypass all that hassle.
Johnnycache
Jun 9 2005, 01:29 AM
| QUOTE (weblife) |
But isn't this spell completely useless?
The TN to cast it is 6. That is, for every 6 dice you have, you get one level of barrier rating.
Most people will be lucky to get a barrier 3 from a single casting. |
One success gives you a barrier equal to force. Extra successes add one point.
weblife
Jun 9 2005, 05:05 AM
| QUOTE (Johnnycache) |
| QUOTE (weblife) | But isn't this spell completely useless?
The TN to cast it is 6. That is, for every 6 dice you have, you get one level of barrier rating.
Most people will be lucky to get a barrier 3 from a single casting. |
One success gives you a barrier equal to force. Extra successes add one point.
|
*blink*
*goes back and reads the spell description*
Oooo!!
*makes note to self to get spell*
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