I'm pretty sure that's what the FAQ said, but it might be open to interpretation.

Average attribute scores are remaining the same, so I doubt if it'll be drastically lower. The only thing that's changing is the pre-racial maximum is dropping to 6 rather than 9.

In the current system, it only takes one point more than what you get for an Attribute priority of D or 34 Build Points to be an "average" person with 3's across the board, and even if you went with a priortiy of A/60 points, you're still only averaging out at 5. So beyond countering for the fact that there's 8 core attributes and 4 special ones (whcih, by the way, is exactly the same number as we have now, just with 6 core and 6 special ones... but no, SR4's setup is more complex ), there's no real need to lower the relative averages. But I did get the impression that they were for whatever reason.

One thing I like about WoD (dunno if it works this way in the newer version) is how they forced you to prioritize your attribute and skill groups. For example, you had to choose which one was your strongest, weakest, and average group of attributes, then you receievd your points based upon those priorities. That's one thing I wouldn't have minded them borrowing, truth be told. But then again, I love prioritized character creation methods and that seems to be in the minority. Still, it would have helped keep attributes and skills in check a bit.

Hmm, kinda lost where I was going here... bah. I'll post it despite that. Not having a point is par of the course around here anyway.

We actually don't know that yet. The racial max might just be for chargen, just like it is now. The FAQs have been vauge enough that it's still a tossup.

Let's count it out:
SR3: Strength, Quickness, Body, Charisma, Intelligence, Willpower, Reaction, Magic, Essence. 9 attributes, 6 core and 3 special.

SR4: Strength, Agility, Body, Charisma, Intuition, Reason, Willpower, Reaction, Magic, Essence, Edge, and Resonance. 12 attributes, 7 core and 5 special*.

We're looking at an addition of 3 attributes, 1 core and 2 special. The two special ones will likely come with their own mechanical exceptions, which really doesn't help the claim of "simplifying the system".

*This depends on how Reaction works. If there isn't an Initiative skill, then it'll have a unique mechanic, which pushes it into a special attribute.

That's another thing that puzzles me about SR4. If it's supposed to be a simpler system, a priority system would have been much better than the proposed points system. As advertised, the new system is going to have progressive costs for attributes (and likely for skills as well); that's just not as simple as the old priority table.

Let's.

SR3 Core Attributes: Body, Quickness, Strength, Charisma, Intelligence, Willpower. That's six attributes that follow the same general rules for the most part.

SR3 Unique Attributes: Reaction, Initiative, Essence, Bio Index, Magic, and an Otaku's MPCP (not to mention all their other ones, but I'm just going to include MPCP as its the equivalence to Resonance). Every single one of those six attributes use a completely different system to determine their value, how they're used to resolve things, and their impact on the character's abilities. Every last one of them.

That's twelve.

SR4 Core Attributes: Body, Agility, Reaction, Strength, Charisma, Intuition, Reason, Willpower. That's eight attributes that all follow the same general rules.

SR4 Non-Core Attributes: Edge, Magic, Resonance. These are still purchased in the same way as the core attributes but have their own rules apparently. That's three semi-unique attributes.

SR4 Unique Attributes: Essence (there has been no mention of a Bio Index type of attribute yet, so it's being ignored). That's one.

Twelve on each side. SR3 two 50% more attributes that follow their own rules and 600% more that not only follow their own rules but have their own rules for calculating their values.

I agree for the most part. I would have preferred to still have a standard Priority system, too, as for me, that's one of the key components for what defined Shadowrun as Shadowrun when I first started playing. But I wouldn't go so far as to say its more complex, just different. Afterall, with the standard Priority system, you have to not only juggle around your alphabet until you get all the components you were hoping for, but then you have to spend the points each one of those priorities gives you, and readjusting in the middle of creation meant having to almost go back to the start to readjust all five priorities. It's simple in practice, but not concept.

OK so far.

Except MPCP isn't an attribute. MPCP is a value for a cyberdeck; otaku have "virtual cyberdecks" which aren't attributes. Resonance *will* be an attribute, but it doesn't currently exist in the system yet. And if you're going to include Bio Index as an attribute, it'll also fall under SR4, since they're not removing bioware. (If they were, character conversion would rapidly become impossible, which we know is not the case.)

Seven. As I said, reaction/initiative will have a unique mechanic. I doubt there will be an initiative skill, so initiative tests won't be attribute + skill.

We already explained why you can't leave out Bio index, so it pops right back in. Even adding that *still* leaves at least 3 more attributes in Sr4.

Sorry, but regarless of the way you want to massage the numbers, it all adds up to SR4 ending up with more attributes overall, and with more "special-case" attributes. You're providing an equivocation, not an arguement.

Generally, I never had the problem with going back; I tended to have very strong character concepts before I started prioritizing the table. However, that's not the issue. What I'm having problems with is that the new system is going to use progressive costs.

Currently, both the build-point and priority table system are straight-cost systems. That makes chargen very straightforward and easy. However, BeCKs is a progressive-cost system, and it's not very popular as a result. Many people here have complained that BeCKs is overly-complex; it certainly requires a lot more math than either of the other two systems.

What's more, indications are that it's not even going to be a straight progression. Apparently, after 3, the cost for an attribute increases. That indicates a stepped-value progression system, with one break at 3 and gods only knows where else. That'd be an even worse mathematical nightmare than BeCKs is currently!

Actually, Flaws and Edges were perfectly useable with the Priority table. You just had to make sure they evened out.

At any event, the priority table was flexible enough for many different concepts. I've been playing a lot of Shadowrun Missions recently; for that, you're required to use the priority table. I've been very pleasantly surprised at the sheer variety of characters that has resulted. I cannot recall a single instance of two people coming to the table with remotely similar characters.

Also there was bioware in 2nd Ed Shadowrun right? (I never played it myself)
The SR3 core rules don't actually mention bioware at all as far as I can find, how did people deal with that hurdle when they converted characters between 2nd and 3rd?

Not really, I mean if attributes only go up to 6, and the first step is 3, then there can be at most, 4 steps, and I would be surprised if they did that.

Even D&D does the stepped stat cost thing, and I don't think there would be many that argue that the generation system for that is overly complex.

The biggest problem with BeCKs is that every point's cost was a GP, and so you add to add them up, while also dealing with rounding at the same time.

Post Hoc, Propter Ergo Hoc. You're making a rather large assumption there. It might be equivalent to Submersion, for example.

Argumentum ad Ignorantiam Beyond that, the exact wording says it's now a non-derived attribute:

Argumentum ad Ignorantiam again.

Inherent contradiction: they cannot both have the same number of attributes and one system have more. Also, Glittering generalities fallacy.

Hm. Four arguments, five fallacies, and one math error. Not your best work, Doc.

And the line above it states

Therefore it has also been split from quickness.

So it is both a conversion to a non-derived attribute and a split from quickness.

So not just a conversion to a non-derived attribute. (Of course this is dangerously close to sophism)

Yes, indeed, which is why he actually describes 2 cases, one which he believes in most strongly, but he also acknowledges another viable case, where SR4 could have at most 1 more attribute.
Therefore not a mathematical error.

And assumedly he is talking about Bio-index as that extra attribute. Which would eliminate a argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, but perhaps I am a little more generous in my reading.

In any case, perhaps you were slightly trigger happy on the fallacies there.

Not *solely* a conversion; but it's not solely a split either. Doc's just taking the side that enforces what he wants to believe, instead of follwing the facts.

Actually, he doesn't state that. He's describing a single case, and trying to make it look like he's covered all possibilites. I suppose it all depends on how generous you want to be; but since Doc would cheerfully jump on an opening like that, I figured turnabout's fair play.

I believe he's referring to Resonance, which is going to have a totally new and arcane mechanic to it. His assumption is that since we don't know anything about it, it must work just like Magic. That's the fallacy.

Of course, the only way to know is for Doc to speak up. However, I've noticed that after having his logical fallacies exposed, Doc tends to run and hide.

Shadowtech, one of the last 2nd Ed. books published, introduced the whole bioware concept, including the Bio Index attribute. Hence, conversion of bioware-laden characters between 2nd and 3rd was very easy (at least so far as Bioware was concerned).

Oh, shadowtech is still an essential book, by the way, because the cost table for forced growth of limbs is found only there. Talk about rules bloat.

Incorrect, on quite a few points. Shadowtech was one of the very last first edition books. Bioware saw no updates throughout second edition, as none of the bioware present in Shadowtech employed mechanics that changed when the editions changed. The first time it was touched after Shadowtech was Man and Machine, a third edition sourcebook, which changed a lot of various pieces of bioware's mechanical functionality, as well as changing from the Body-linked Body Index to the unlinked Bio Index and Essence-linked Essence Index to measure bioware impact.

The conversion of bioware-laden characters between 1st Edition and 2nd Edition was cake. Nothing changed. The conversion of bioware-laden characters between 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition was quite involved, as various pieces had been split into multiple pieces or restatted in terms of performance, cost, and system impact. System impact itself worked quite differently, too, and you might find suddenly that your Body 6, Essence 0.1 Street Samurai whose Body Index of 5.0 in SR2, below his actual Body rating and thus kosher, was pretty far over his Essence Index, thus causing a number of problems he had prior not had to worry about.

Also, in SR1/SR2, it was unstated but supported in every single adventure module that Bioware reduced Awakened characters' Essence attributes by its Body Index, but did not impact Magic. This was weird, but I rolled with it. In SR3, Bioware ceased to reduce Essence for them, and instead did some strange effective reducing of Magic that was a step in the right direction. Errata further adjusted this to normal magic loss simply factoring in Bio Index, which I think is the best solution.

Either way, not trying to insult you, just saying that a lot of the points you just stated were inaccurate.

That's cool. That's like me!

...okay, that's a little weird.

It's not that difficult.

What, for the hookers?

Heh, that was a long way to go for a laugh....

hahahahahaha

I like the way you operate.