Hello my fellow dumpshocked dumpshockers:)

OK i did not see this anywhere and i wanted to just bring it up for discussion and possbily to have a playtester say yes or no. Currently under SR3 Melee trolls are very powerful, but definately not overpowered (balanced is a term i hate to use because it is so perspective based). A skill 6 troll in 3rd is basically a human with a sword and 6 in edged weapons, now yes you could argue about body and strength being overpowered in melee combat. But i have had MANY characters go melee ( at least as a secondary) and the non-trolls did fine to me. I mean they did not use dwarves as melee weapons but they were competent and "worked".
Now with the new rules of stat+skill in SH4 i don't see how anyone can possibly compete with max or enhanced strength trolls who have even a marginal skill. I mean the age old arguement about the 60 year old kung fu master (str 3) being able to defeat all commers because he had a skill of 9.. well guess what a troll can start off easily with a base of 10 strength and just a skill of 3 can be the equal of that kung fu master. ( *cringe* i don't want to even think about what magic or machine can crank troll str up 2) And this is WITHOUT even trying to factor in the trolls reach bonus. Does anyone else out here see this as a problem?
Also the idea that a troll without athletics but max body can be comparable to someone with a skill of 6 in athletics and max starting body.. is well scary. I mean a troll should not be able to suba dive as well as someone with skill 6 and body 2.. just because they are a troll.


In SR3 all attributes were not created equally. Cha was useless unless you were a face or could not roleplay through the encounter ( really how many of us cut a point in Cha to balance out our qui and int) Str was the next most useless stat, mainly because of design. Because if you gave so much str to all of the races and made it an important stat that would unbalance the races. By taking str/body into the calcuations, it just seems like it would unbalance the skills based on those stats.

-stupid question that will not be answered: ok so TN is 5 now.. i'm down with trying it.. but what about damage resistance tests? i mean how can you fix that target number...


Well just something to think about.. from someone who has not made up their mind about SH4. Also.. would it KILL the dev's to at least say something to try an stop all the horrible arguements here? I don't want spoilers.. just some confirmation that stuff works well:)



*when i say max attribute i mean normal max ie 6 for humans:) plus modifiers for other races of course.

Well, one thing they could fix would be the way it's not really possible to be blindingly quick in mellee in SR3 - trolls are supposed to be big but a bit slower, and they really aren't in mellee. One thing the kung fu master - or elf with hand razors - should have over the troll ganger should be the ability to pop him the nose before he can bring his ponderous dukes into play.

Also, max strength troll with twin spurs = sheer, pure, unstopable hell in mellee.

You're assuming that strength will be the linked attribute. More likely quickness will be the linked attribute, and strength will only affect damage after a hit has been scored. That's how it should have been done in SR3.

That still leaves open the question of Quickness becoming an uberstat. Especially if it's also the linked attribute for firearms. Suddenly, everyone will be playing elves.

I just wanted to say thanks to cain for explaining what i was getting at a little clearer than i could. When cain said:

The problem with Agility (remember, there is no Quickness in SR4) being linked to a lot of useful skills is less dangerous than Strength-linkage. Elves, assuming the +1 Quickness is transformed into +1 Agility (or +1 Reaction?), are only going to be rolling one more die. Under the new system, a single bonus die isn't that much of a boost. Trolls, on the other hand, are looking at +4 to Strength. 4 bonus dice are quite a lot, and could seriously increase the effectiveness of a Troll at Strength-linked skills, possibly game-breakingly so (considering that the system does not handle dice pool values outside of a 6-12 range very well, and a troll at their racial limit will be almost at the upper end of that range before skill or beneficial situational dice are added).

i am not trying to complain. I just love melee combat and I don't understand how they can work it using the new system. Personally i know i will be buying the book already. It's just, I want trolls to be better in melee combat than a regular human naturally ( I mean they obviously are not going to be the best computer programers by SR lore and stats). But I don't want to use the new stat+skill system if its going to make skills not matter. In the example of a natural max strength troll being able to destroy a world class master in a martial art, and to do it WITHOUT at least average skill.. is just what i am worried about.

But, i will say i am still baffled how you can just use thresholds in the place of both power and damage level--> going from SR4 to SR3. I mean i can't even think of a way to do it:( and still be as specific as the SR3 rules-set.

Anyway a playtester can just say the system works well... or that they like it or something?

The major problem I'm observing with the SR4 mechanic is that, in reducing complexity, the system has also lost quite a bit of elegance. Situations where the existing system simply handled itself, in SR3, are either going to behave very strangely or demand specific expansions/adjustments to behave more reasonably in SR4. These expansions/adjustments raise the complexity bar and make SR4 closer to the undesired complexity level of SR3, which defeats the entire purpose of the change in systems.

Speak for yourself, man.

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A lot of observations and facts can be derived from the aforementioned thirty-odd lines of revelations that the FAQs have provided. The system itself, with its static TN# of 5, has certain behavioral tendencies that can be observed and have as a result been commented on. The same goes for the dicepool calculation mechanic and its potential shortcomings. If we do not make these observations, we're not doing all we can do to make certain that SR4 is the best system it can be.

If the developers read these forums, then they can observe particular demonstrated pitfall tendencies, reasons why certain ideas will work differently from others, and maybe get a few ideas they hadn't come up with, or find a few flaws they had not yet observed. By criticizing, picking apart, and analyzing every mechanic we're given, we can generate a fantastic amount of useful mechanical analysis and virtual playtesting, as well as a good base of ideas.

If someone chooses not to read them, or they're all disregarded as meaningless naysaying, at least those who have an opinion and have made observations have put forth every reasonable attempt to inform those who can make a direct difference in the system. If I haven't observed and stated every potential flaw or concern that I've noticed, when SR4 hits print, then I will regret it. This is a crucial time in Shadowrun's development, and the last thing we need to do is sit idly by and clap our hands.

Observation, questions, and criticisms must be made. Whether or not they happen to be brutal is based on the observation of the reader and the personality of the poster, but that doesn't necessarily make them any less valid. When the developers and those they interact with have admitted to reading these forums, it's very important that we provide something informative for them to read. It might not be pleasant to read, some of the time, but it is informative.

If you're unwilling to accept that some observations about yours and others' work may be unpleasant or downright scathing, then you either need to develop thicker skin or cease engaging in or interacting with works that are subject to criticism. If you manage the latter, let me know. I get pretty tired of people analyzing and criticizing my work, from time to time. It'd be refreshing to find a medium where they were subjugated to conform to my opinions, views, and schools of thought.
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Wow... you already own the corebook of SR4 ? Is it that bad ??!!?? Please give us more information on the aforementionned points, in your great wisdom...

Also, who is to say that Trolls get a +4 to STR in SR4. All we know is that tey get a benefit of some kind to raw physical power and are tough to kill. We don't know anything about what kinds of bonuses they will receive. Perhaps with the added weight of attributes they will only receive a +2 STR and a +3 to BOD, or possibly they get to subtract 1 or 2 to the threshhold of any STR and BOD tests to a minimum of 1. Who knows, but I can imagine that SR3 racial mods won't be used in SR4. The stats carry far to much importance for those mods to stand. To me, reducing their thresholds necessary for success is on par with increasing attributes. A 3 STR would still be average among trolls, but compared to a human they apply their great strength more readily due to leverage. (IE, if it takes 3 hits to lift object A, the human needs 3 hits from STR+ Athletics (just a guess) the troll needs 1 Hit from STR + Athletics)

Nikoli, the problem with that is, if that is the case, it's a heck of a lot more complicated than I would personally like to deal with. Suddenly races would not only have certain static mechanical modifiers to their intrinsic statistics, but would have different performance profiles for certain activities. It makes for a logicstical nightmare, especially for adding advanced/optional/expanded rules later, since they would have to take into account these race-specific-action-specific threshold modifiers and consider whether or not a new one needs to be created to deal with the rule in question.

Should elves have a reduced threshold for certain skill tests based upon physical and social graces? Should dwarves get a reduced threshold for working with stone and metal with Build/Repair and artisan-type Knowledge skills? I'm already aware that I've got a pretty high tolerance for rules complexity that others view as terrifying and nightmarish, and I would personally balk at that idea.

And chevalier_neon? No. I assume you are aware of the legal and ethical boundaries which prevent me from even speaking too specifically or revealing anything more than observations I've made and suggestions based solely on the information provided in the FAQs. I consider any information I possess from the SR4 playtest rules to be, for lack of better term "metagame knowledge". Please do not ask me to divulge privileged information again; you should know better.

There might not be intrinsic stat mods. THat was my point. All we know for certain is that the non-human races get some form of benefit for their traditional stat strengths. We just don't know what that form is as of yet.
my example was meant to be an OR not an AND

Some of the people complaining are playtesters.

One is. Other playtesters are enthusiastic. Others don't say a word on DS. What does that tell you? Nothing specific.

Mfb says he doesn't like the feel of the new rules. He did admit they work faster, and that a part of the rules was splendid work. He explicitly said the hacking rules were the best netrunning rules he had seen to date.

So, all we know from him is that the rules are *different*, which turns him off massively. He never said they play clumsily, are unbalanced, or perform in a seriously stupid manner.

Since they're completely overhauling the whole game, it seems plausible to me that they are working on a way to Rocks, Paper, Scissors, melee, ranged and magical combat.

So your high specced combat troll may turn out to be more vulnerable to one of the other two then they were in SR3.

My apologies, chevalier, but I am a playtester for the Shadowrun 4th Edition rules, and people who come to realize this tend to have a predictable first response of "so, hey, can you (send me a copy || print me out a copy || tell me them word for word)", and it gets kind of tiring. As far as playtesters complaining go, I would say I fall closer to that category than I do to being enthusiastic, and I've certainly not kept quiet. That is, however, off-topic. If I really get it into my head to explain my lack of enthusiasm for the new system, I'd pick another thread.

As far as your comment, Nerbert, I actually think that a SR3 character, in case of your post a highly specialized combat troll, should never attempt to be compared or even converted directly to SR4. The systems are sufficiently different that I'm unsure how an SR3-to-SR4 conversion manual could work very well. Anyone who wants to preserve as best they can their character's capabilities, from SR3 to SR4, will probably need to break down the character into their component build points and rebuild them from the ground using the SR4 creation and advancement rules.

Ouch, but good info

Okay, that makes two. Didn't know that, WK.

Three actually, but I hold onto hope that the biggest detriments will be ironed out. We'll see.

yeah...when I first joined dumpshock I didn't realize that a fair number of the people here were actually directly involved in making the game or closing involved (such as playtesters)...course, I think most of them have been scared off by now thanks to the nastiness of the forums...

as far as this original topic goes...I think it was meant to be a discussion and not a criticism...which leads me to my two cents...

I see damage and soak going straight up WoD (since I don't know much about nWoD I'll use WoD) it'll be pool equal to damage of weapon plus strength if it is a melee weapon...target soaks and net successes, if positive, are boxes of damage

I can't think of a way to make up for the high stat, low skill character versus the high skill, low stat character...neither 7th Sea, L5R, nor WoD gave many good reasons not to prefer stats over skills...they gave a penalty for not having the skill but as soon as you did you lost that penalty so it was good to have 1 point of a skill and then the rest stats because stats boost all linked skills...and I'd have to say that 7th Sea probably has the least complex CORE rules of any of the 4 games under discussion in my post (less complexity being the stated goal of SR4 from the posts)

there's some mechanism at work that only the dev's and playtesters know at this point...I can't figure it out but then again that's why I'm an economist and not a game developer

I'd say economics is a fair bit more complex than game development. And it involves a lot of the same type of cost/benefit analyses--I bet someone could get a Ph.D. in economics by analyzing the economics of reward structures in games. Unless you're saying you're a lousy economist, if you can't figure out a good way to overcome the stat/skill problem, maybe you should be a little worried. I can't think of one either, so I'm a little worried.

I thought that the Earthdawn system actually did a decent job of it. But streamlined and fast it was not.

Streamlined in the sense of "being simple" - not. But it was logical and didn't have the need for as many extra-rules and exceptions as other games.

yes...Earthdawn was actually a very elegant system in some ways...however, the complex dice system didn't help it much...it was too much effort for most players to make the effort to learn which dice they should be rolling at a given step to make it worth their while to play...but for a GM and those who took the time it was dirt simple to adapt just about any situation to the rules and come out with a sensible result...

as far as my skills as an economist...yes economists do have very good skills for analyzing games but then again so does any mathematician or statistician...the reason I can't find a good solution is because when I sit down to use my economic skills I would prefer to use them for more important situations...such as my field of economic development...instead of a game I like to play in my spare time

Judging from my expericences made with my players most people need only one or two sessions to become comfortable with the step system. It may seem complicated, but in fact is very easy. And the background, the world and the whole story are worth the effort.

How was the old NBA-slogan? "I love this game!" ... Back when the NY Knicks had been at the finals...

And didn't the official character sheets have a little Step table printed on them anyway telling you what dice to roll. And of course on each skill, attribute etc. you had a little space to right in what dice you were rolling. I liked the step system. Although I know a lot of people I played with hated the shift in probability when you got to a d20+d4 as opposed to what was before it (2d12?).

What I hated was the fact that skilles were nigh on impossible to learn.

yeah...I found that as well...about one or two sessions to get used to the step system and yes the character sheets did have the step numbers on them...

unfortunately in my gaming community Earthdawn got something of a bad rep because of the d20+d4 step...but other than the few naysayers those who play it like it a lot

anyway...I think we should get this thread back on topic

Speaking of putting it back on topic ...

Previously someone proposed that agility might be used for melee combat tests and strength for damage, but warned that it could become an uberstat if firearms were rolled in as well.

It made me wonder if firearms would instead be linked to reaction, thus separating gross and fine motor skills between the attributes.

The flaws I see with this idea are twofold. First, reactiion becomes even more of a "Must have for samurai' attribute. Second, this leaves strength with very few linked skills.

The solution, however, would solve the troll problem rather elegantly.

Are they definately having link attricutes any more? It may be more like you can use any attribute with any skill but obviously there are more usual correlations between some skills and some stats.

Strength would then work with damage, carrying capacity, melee rolls where you are just trying to damage a static target maybe, some athletics rolls?

I agree it could be very much reduced, but then Body was like that in SR3, no?

Given the whole "every test is attribute+skill" thing, I'm willing to bet some damn good money that attributes are still linked to skills.

Sorry, the point of the ED reference was that I think it at least a possibility that they don't convert att value straight over into dice, like how they did in ED. It was like every 3 points or so was a step.

It seemed to work well ,and stay balanced that way. ANd melee attack test was based off of Dex ( or quickenss or whatever), which I also liked a lot. These couple of things here go a long way to fix problems (IMO).

Little side note, taught my wife D&D 2nd +3rd (+3.5) and SR, and ED .SHe learned ED the fastest.

I would make perception the linked attribute for firearms.

And as for uberstats, the nice thing is that there will be a hell of a lot less min-maxing at character creation, because starting stats will be bought up in a similar way to the way they are increased with karma, ie it will be more expensive to raise stats to higher levels. So if you want to have a quickness of six, it will cost you big time.

Heh. I've done something similar while running GURPS 4e, and no-one bitched. Then again, it didn't come up all that often. Each skill had a default linkage that was almost always used, so the nonstandard ones only appeared in situations that were obviously corner cases, and so fairly cried out for a GM ruling. But in GURPS, things like that are more necessary since your skills are so heavily influenced by your stats.

I've not missed that feature in SR3, but it might be necessary in an attribute + skill system like SR4. Otherwise you find yourself asking questions like "Why does my Reaction stat help me indentify pistols during a firefight?"

Yeah, I mean intuition. If it's used for a lot more than just perception tests and assensing, maybe it will have a linked perception skill.

What melee troll problem? Aren't they supposed to be big and scary?

They're screwed over left, right, and centre.

Poor intelligence, charisma, reaction, and quickness. Material costs are 25% higher, most vehicle seats don't take them, rampant racial hatred and abuse, low population=high recognition, can't use equipment found in the field, etc.

An opponent who is 50% taller, 50% longer reach, and 4 times heavier should find it easy to win in melee. Just like I'd expect to kick the crap out of an opponent if I was fighting a pre-teen.

IMO - Trolls can only excel in a couple of areas. Neuter trolls any more and they should just be dropped from SR because they become nothing more than ineffective mentally handicaped orcs.