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Bandwidthoracle
Ok, I was looking over the rules in SSG for lifestyle.
When you pay for 4 security you get some Ares Sential P drones. Sentinal P drones cost 32,000 a piece, so the monthly upkeep is 320• per month. Also the matrix for high lifestyle only costs 100(300).

So my question is: Is it more frugal for a character to buy everything seperatly, and just pay for good space and neiborhood? (Everything else low or squatter) If so, wouldn't it be the something a runner would be likely to do? Rely on their own drowns, matrix, et al? If not, what is stopping a runner from bringing his own into an empty house?
Ol' Scratch
Nothing's stopping it, really. Lifestyle rules are there for convenience -- you set the conditions and forget about it, knowing it's all taken care of via your monthly fee. When you do it yourself, you have to micromanage everything, including upkeep and maintenance costs, stopping what you're doing to attend to any break-in alerts, and every thing else.
hermit
Not to mention pay the goons and riggers you pay for keeping an eye on your home when you're not there, the mechanic to maintain the Guardian, and the dwarf tinkerer to take care of the whole electronics maintainance work for all your sensors and whatnot.

And that's only security.

I doupt you'd even get a better cut that way. It's surely not really worth the hassle, at least in my book. Roleplaying runs is fun, but roleplaying buying electronics ... could quickly lose the fun.
Edward
The rules in SSG donít ad up. Buy way of proof I asses the cost of land in an A rated aria.
CODE

                        1      2         3   4
Aria                   4    4       4  4
Comforts    4         4    2      2
Entertainment  4       4          2    2
Furnishings    4         4    2      2
Security     4          4     4       4
Space               2          4      2       4
Points               22          24     16      18
Cost                 8530 10000 3650 5000
Additional                   1470                1350      mis mach 120

As you can see buy having cheaper food, les matrix channels, and mass market furniture moving into a bigger apartment is significantly cheaper.

Other things that donít make much sense, the cost of security increases with the number of matrix channels you have, (or the cost of matrix access increases if you have good security) and 5 star restaurants charge you more if you live in a country estate than a 1 bedroom apartment.

If youíre creating realistic lifestyles it works quite well but when you start to use it for things like storage lockers where some of the variables are 0 the mismatches become more significant.

Edward
Eyeless Blond
Of course they don't add up. They use a linear point scale, but have to backward-compatible with the exponentially-increasing lifestyle costs from the original SR3 book. It's the same reason that, at chargen, someone with 25 points in Resources gets an additional 70,000 Y per additional point spent on resources while someone with 0 points spent only gets 3,000 Y per additional point.
Critias
Am I the only one who can't make heads or tales of that "proof" chart/table/whatever up there? Seriously?
psykotisk_overlegen
It's a bit difficult to read yes. And I think it has a typo, you should review example nr.3 Edward, and while you're at it, is there any way to make it easier to read?

The lifestyle rules from SSG match the rest of the shadowrun rules pretty well, they're complex, not very realistic and not always balanced, but they somehow work anyway.
Bandwidthoracle
My players tend to want to do things like buy the land and furiture and hire security, but it dosen't appear to be realistic, since the tables don't appear to work for things ilke that. Any suggestions?
FlakJacket
Here's a quick stab at making the table a little more readable.

CODE
† † † † † † † † † † †1           2           3          4

Area † † † † † † † † 4 † †       4 † †       4          4
Comforts † †         4 † † †     4 †         2 † † †    2
Entertainment †      4 † † †     4 † † † †   2 †        2
Furnishings † †      4 † † †     4 †         2 † † †    2
Security † †         4 † † †     4 †         4 † † †    4
Space † † † † † † †  2 † † † †   4 † †       2 † † †    4
Points † † † † † † † 22 † † †    24 †        16       † 18
Cost † † † † † † † 8,530       10,000      3,650      5,000
Additional † † † †  1,470 † † † 1,350     Mismatch     120
psykotisk_overlegen
Excellent work FlakJacket, it's quite readable now.
Hell, now I can even see that the typo I was talking about was non-existent.

I'm still not sure about what Edward was trying to prove with that table though.
Edward
Sorry about the messed up table. How do you get the columns to line up,

What I was trying to show was that land is more expensive if you have more stuff on it.

Edward
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
What I was trying to show was that land is more expensive if you have more stuff on it.

Wow! Who would have thought that? Why, the very notion of that idea is ludicrus, it is. [Please note heavy sarcasm.]
Edward
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE
What I was trying to show was that land is more expensive if you have more stuff on it.

Wow! Who would have thought that? Why, the very notion of that idea is ludicrus, it is. [Please note heavy sarcasm.]

No, it doesnít make sense but I can see how you could misinterpret my statement.

It costs more to rent a house (including the land and the building) if your going to fill it up with stuff (quality furniture, good computers, lots of matrix channels and fresh food) than if your going to only have the bear necessities (old materes, 4 year old computer, free to air trid and basic matrix access only, no food that wasnít grown in a vat)

I donít think those aspects of your life should affect the cost of the building you live in, if you do pleas explain why. (Sarcasm only welcome if accompanying an explanation)

Edward
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
It costs more to rent a house (including the land and the building) if your going to fill it up with stuff (quality furniture, good computers, lots of matrix channels and fresh food) than if your going to only have the bear necessities (old materes, 4 year old computer, free to air trid and basic matrix access only, no food that wasnít grown in a vat)

I donít think those aspects of your life should affect the cost of the building you live in, if you do pleas explain why.

You really need to clarify whatever point you're trying to make, because right now you're not making a lot of sense to me. Of course it costs more to rent the land, the house, the furniture, the utilities, and the food/clothing/etc. than it does to just rent the land or the house. Why wouldn't it?

The cost for the lifestyle is the cumulation of all of those facets, as well as those that are less tangible (such as hiring a gang to keep an eye on your house /and/ not to break into it themselves to rob you blind).

Or are you just trying to criticize the system for having a non-linear increase in costs based on the point total rather than each component? If so, that I'll agree with. It may have made a lot more sense to give a chart for each aspect then have you add them all up to get your final outcome (though that would have problems all its own, such as why it cost the same to furnish a Luxury-sized mansion as opposed to a Low-sized apartment). In the end, the current system made a bit more sense since it at least tries to scale the final cost based upon the other characteristics.

But if that was what you were trying to say, why didn't you just say that instead of complaining that it costs more to have all the perks in a lifestyle as opposed to the bare necessassities as if that were some strange, alien concept beyond mortal comprehension?

EDIT: Also, if you wanted to prove that point a bit better, you would have been wiser to just set a lifestyle at Area 6, Space 4, and 0 on everything else, and show that a huge plot of real-estate on prime AAA land would only set you back 700 nuyen a month or 70,000 nuyen to buy it permanently (and even that isn't entirely out of the realm of believability since manually furnishing, hooking up utilities, setting up security systems, and everything else will set you back a handsome penny -- probably nearly on par to the final cost if you had just bought it with the lifestyle costs to begin with).
Edward
My complaint is caused buy the non linier price increase based on the sum of points.

The problem I see that causing is that if you break down the sections (as if you where going to use the buy your apartment and pay for other aspects of lifestyle on an ongoing basis) the apartment (not including the furniture, food, matrix acxes and security monitoring) is more expensive if it has real food in the fridge and an extra 500 matrix channels.

For example I will purchase the location and space attributes of 2 lifestyles

1: Aria 4, Space 4, Comforts 4, Entertainment 4, Furnishings 4, Security 4 24 points monthly cost 10,000.
cost of purchasing location 4 and space 4 8/24*10,000*100 = 333,333 nuyen
2: Aria 4, Space 4, Comforts 2, Entertainment 2, Furnishings 2, Security 4 18 points monthly cost 5,000
cost or purchasing location 4 and space 4 8/18*5,000*100 = 222,222 nuyen

Dose my point make sense yet the price of the apartment (unfurnished and empty) is determined buy the food I eat, the furniture I put in it and the entertainment I watch.

Edward
Eyeless Blond
Er, you can purchase parts of a lifestyle like that? I didn't think that was possible.
mmu1
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Er, you can purchase parts of a lifestyle like that? I didn't think that was possible.

There are mechanics for that in one of the supplements - Sprawl Survival Guide, I think.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
Dose my point make sense yet the price of the apartment (unfurnished and empty) is determined buy the food I eat, the furniture I put in it and the entertainment I watch.

First of all, furniture would have a large impact on the price because you're renting that as well as the apartment. Second, Comforts and Entertainment are more than just food and trid channels. Comforts, for instance, include most of your utilities (including things like air conditioning and heating), your house staff, sauna's, robotic servants, appliances, and everything else -- thus the larger and ritzier your pad, the more you have to pay. Entertainment is the same way. Yes, it includes non-apartmet related things like things like season ballpark tickets, safari trips, Yacht Club memberships, eating out at restaurants, nightclub memberships, and vacations, but it also includes all the hardware you have installed in your apartment or mansion -- thus the larger the apartment or house, the higher the relative cost in that regard as you have more space to fill with gadgets.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (mmu1)
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Jun 14 2005, 09:02 AM)
Er, you can purchase parts of a lifestyle like that? I didn't think that was possible.

There are mechanics for that in one of the supplements - Sprawl Survival Guide, I think.

He's talking about cheating by buying two different lifestyles, then mixing-and-matching by buying, say, Area 6, Space 4, and 0 on everything else, then buying another one Entertainment 4 and 0 on everything else, then buying another one at Comforts 4 and 0 on everything, then one at Furnishings 4 and 0 on everything, then one last one at Security 4 and 0 on everything else, then smooshing them all together.
Eyeless Blond
Huh. Okay then.
QUOTE (Edward)
Dose my point make sense yet the price of the apartment (unfurnished and empty) is determined buy the food I eat, the furniture I put in it and the entertainment I watch.

Yeah; something wrong with that? Part of the price of real estate (in this case a house actually; Space 4 is far too large for an apartment) is based on the improvements put on the land; a dank, drafty warehouse-like building is going to be cheaper to buy than the land under a mansion, even if the raw land value (size + area) is roughly the same; the value of the land is going to increase because what was put on the land is valuable in itself..
Edward
I see size + aria as covering not just the land but also the building.
It would not include appliances such as air conditioners, security systems, telcoms, tridios, laundry service fees and the myriad other things that make up lifestyle, just the house and the land.

I donít know about in America but in Australia many apartments (or houses) are rented unfurnished, landlords like not having to worry about the risk that the furniture will be destroyed and tenants like being able to choose there own furniture and keep it when they move out. (Of cause some tenants like not having to transport furniture and some landlords like to charge more rent for a furnished apartment so that happens to), there is even an example in SSG of purchasing permanent furnishings and entertainment.

The example that I would expect to happen is one that happens in reality, buy a nice house when you canít afford to furnish it as well as you would want, (location 4, space 4, furnishings 2, entertainment 2, comforts 3). Many middle class families do this, they buy a house and scrimp and save to pay for it, when a good portion is played of and the breadwinner gets a promotion he buys new furniture, installs an air conditioner and cable and eats nicer food. (Becomes strait 4s lifestyle)

The same would happen in SR with a runner that can not get finance. Get a big score and buy a home, (assuming you are the buying a home type of runner) but you cant yet quite afford everything top noch so you only buy the house and continue paying the rest month to month at lower levels so you can save money still. The problem is when he upgrades his entertainment comforts and furniture the calculated value of his house (location + size) goes up. (as demonstrated in my previous post).

Edward
Nikoli
Same here. You gotta score your own furniture usually. Sure there are some pre-furnished apartments but those cost a lot more overall.

To do what you are talking about, use the piecemeal system in the Sprawl Survival Guide. As the player changes the level of various things, adjust the total.

But, at the heart of what you are talking about is abusing an abstracted system to get more while paying less, which is little better than munchkinism.
Rev
Some of what is under the furnishings category might not be completely mobile. The quality of the flooring materials, the freshness of the paint on the walls, lighting fixtures, and the wiring for electronics to name a few examples.

Many non-linearities in cost makes sense. It should cost more to furnish a large place than to furnish a small place to the same quality level. Each additional square foot in a better neighborhood should cost you more than one in a bad neighborhood. Security for a larger place should cost more somehow proportional to the size, the neighborhood (you can't install a chain link fence topped with salvaged electrified razor wire in a swank neighborhood, have to go with something more expensive and less obvious), and the furnishings (now your security has to cover all your paintings and electronics).

Anyhow I think those ssg rules are fantasitically descriptive, easy to use, and balanced with the smallish exception of the edges/flaws who's monetary cost/benefits need to be tripled or something.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
I donít know about in America but in Australia many apartments (or houses) are rented unfurnished

So what, you expect all the furniture to just materialize out of thin air? No, the lifestyle rules are assuming you're renting *everything* for the lifestyle. That doesn't mean it came with the apartment. You just have a bigger apartment in a nicer part of town? It's gonna cost you more to furnish it than it would if you had a shitty little cardboard box in the Barrens whether it came that way or you went down to the local Rent-Some-Drek outlet to rent it.

These are also rules designed primarily for the use of runners -- disposable homes that you don't have to worry about if things get ugly. That's why they never really go into listing how much a nice bedroom set would cost.
Nikoli
And explains why purchasing costs so much. You owm it, it's tied to you. It ties you down. Hence they really wanted to make it seem unappealing do purchase a lifestyle.
Eyeless Blond
I also happen to think furnishings have less to do with your bed or desk and more of the quality of your house. What kind of widows do you have? How good is your roofing? Your banisters? The structure of your kitchen? Do you have a nice porch with a planter out front (for that all-important bit of cover to shoot from behind during some sort of assault)? How many trees do you have in your backyard?

In my mind, changing Furnishings isn't really a matter of going out and buying a dining room set; it's somewhat more like remodeling your house (something I'm helping out with right now, actually, so some of this is RL experience talking.) When you do stuff like this, the value of the land changes, your taxes change, the amount of extra wiring/plumbing/gas pipes etc. changes, and so on.
Edward
I have run out of different ways to explain my point.
It doesnít matter anyway.

The SSG rules for lifestyle only work if you view them in the abstract and donít play around to much. If you look to close you find a lot of stupid things going on. Like a deadbolt and a large dog costing one sixth of the value of your lifestyle (low lifestyle on all sections) and a beech front property to put a manchon on (AAA zone luxury space, no development yet (or building in need of tearing down or extensive refurbishment), no known defects) being worth less than 85,000 nuyen to buy outright.

I resent the implication that I was being a munchkin trying to save money buy buying a property and later upgrading other lifestyle aspects, that would be a logical way for a character that wants to buy a lifestyle to act and I was pointing it out as a symptom of a flaw in the system.

One resent post sounded like they didnít know about the sprawl survival guide in depth lifestyle rules, if you didnít know about them then all I can say is my comments have all been related to those rules not the ones in the BBB.

Edward
Rev
Some of the stuff you are talking about may not be legal under the ssg rules. Area in particular had some limitations on other choices.

The system isn't designed to have you playing real estate developer, it is designed to let you customize a lifestyle in about half and hour, so if you decide to use in an unintended way then exploit bugs revealed by that you are being a munchkin. If you just notice the limitations... duh. Feel free to come up with a big stack of house rules and start playing Shadowrun: real estate developer, the game developers have better things to work on.
Jrayjoker
You will be slightly less likely to be shot at as a developer than as a runner. However, you will need to lower your ethical standards considerably.
wink.gif
Nikoli
lol

funny thing is, I have some friends that develop real estate. I hear so many things that could spawn runs it's not funny.
Edward
QUOTE (Rev @ Jun 15 2005, 03:06 AM)
Some of the stuff you are talking about may not be legal under the ssg rules.  Area in particular had some limitations on other choices.

The system isn't designed to have you playing real estate developer, it is designed to let you customize a lifestyle in about half and hour, so if you decide to use in an unintended way then exploit bugs revealed by that you are being a munchkin.  If you just notice the limitations... duh.  Feel free to come up with a big stack of house rules and start playing Shadowrun: real estate developer, the game developers have better things to work on.

Now that I do find offensive.

Being called a munchkin for noting an exploit and NOT doing something that would be reasonable if the rules for it worked.

Given there are rules in SSG for improving a lifestyleís attributes individually I think my proposal was exactly the kind on thing that was intended. The ability to buy your house and land and latter upgrade to better stuff in the house would seem to be reasonable to me. And not in the least acting as a real-estate developer considering I was clearly talking about somewhere the character was going to live. From where I am sitting buying a nice house and making it into a home seems like a reasonable long term character goal.

The question was do the SSG lifestyle rules add up. If posting examples of how they do not (and that was all I meant with the bit about the potential mansion site) makes me a munchkin in your eyes then I donít care what you think.

Edward
Nikoli
That's different.
The way it was presented was that you had seen the breaking point in the design and had already used it. Pointing it out isn't bad, it gives other GM's a chance to house-rule/patch it.

I did not intend to accuse you of anything for simply pointing out a flaw, far from it. I honestly thought you had already used the flaw as an exploit.

My apologies.
tisoz
QUOTE (Rev)
The system isn't designed to have you playing real estate developer, it is designed to let you customize a lifestyle in about half and hour, so if you decide to use in an unintended way then exploit bugs revealed by that you are being a munchkin. If you just notice the limitations... duh. Feel free to come up with a big stack of house rules and start playing Shadowrun: real estate developer, the game developers have better things to work on.

I played in a game GMed by an architect. His wife was into using the SSG rules to buy permanent lifestyles/real estate. I can't remember all the property the group wound up owning, but there was a 'playboy' type mansion overlooking the sound and a farm in Redmond.

We also were starting to play Ghostbusters by buying the haunted house archetype and exorcising them.
Kremlin KOA
Edward? A munchkin?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

oh that was funny enough to return to dumpshock for
Rev
QUOTE (Edward)
Being called a munchkin for noting an exploit and NOT doing something that would be reasonable if the rules for it worked.

Man, I have no idea what this sentence means, but it doesn't seem to have much to do with my statements that you quoted.

If you find bugs and holes in the rules and exploit them you are a munchkin. Its a reasonable definition of being a munchkin. Note: I did not say you are a munchkin, I specified a type of behavior that would demonstrate anyone a munchkin. I have no idea if you are exploiting these holes you have noticed in the lifestyle rules, or just complaining about them. If you find bugs in rules when pushing them to thier limits that's what house rules and gm fiat are for, and this forum is in part to discuss such things.

I also didn't say it would not be fun to do some real estate development, or that you should not do it. I do think that you will need some house rules, or gm fiat to make it work because the ssg rules weren't designed with that in mind. They do talk a bit about upgrading lifestyles, etc, but I don't think anything in there sounds like they are promising to reasonably handle buying some empty land and slowly building up a luxury compound.
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