Hypothetical twinking here.
So I have my PC summon an ally spirit. As a spirit, when manifested it gets Immunity to Normal Weapons, which is essentially hardened armour at twice its force.
So, this mage makes one of the forms of the ally spirit be, for example, a pair of long johns, or some type of clothing with similar coverage to Form Fitting Body Armour, then takes to wearing her ally spirit. And someone shoots at her, because she's dressed in red flannel pajamas. How would this be ajudicated?
I see three obvious answers to this question:
A) The mage gains the benefit of of the spirit's Immunity to Normal Weapons when making her Damage Resistance test.
B) The spirit makes a Damage Resistance test against the gunshot, following all normal rules.
C) The GM reaches across the table and smacks the player with a BBB.
Now, as a GM, which option would you pick? And, barring C for a moment, which option does RAW support most?
Full Version: Fun with Ally Spirits...
...I hope my players don't start reading these posts.
| QUOTE (FrostyNSO) |
| ...I hope my players don't start reading these posts. |
So you favour option C, then?
start w/ c
from there, there's a certain amount of damage that would still go through. Even with a bullet proof vest, you can still get cracked ribs from the kinetic force. It just keeps it from penetrating (hopefully).
If one of my players decided to step up to someone with an assault cannon because he was wearing his ally spirit, I'd laugh , smile, and blast away. He's still going to take damage. The onyl really viable way I can see of a player getting imm to normal weapons is through channeling (or becomnig a vampiric pawn).
And on that note, I'd say it'd be one pissed off ally spirit too.
"what the hell do you mean he's not wearing clean underwear again! That's it! " Spirit un-manifests, mage stands there naked......
from there, there's a certain amount of damage that would still go through. Even with a bullet proof vest, you can still get cracked ribs from the kinetic force. It just keeps it from penetrating (hopefully).
If one of my players decided to step up to someone with an assault cannon because he was wearing his ally spirit, I'd laugh , smile, and blast away. He's still going to take damage. The onyl really viable way I can see of a player getting imm to normal weapons is through channeling (or becomnig a vampiric pawn).
And on that note, I'd say it'd be one pissed off ally spirit too.
"what the hell do you mean he's not wearing clean underwear again! That's it! " Spirit un-manifests, mage stands there naked......
*snerks* Yeah, I can't really disagree with any of that.
Mechanically, then, would you treat the annoyed spirit as normal armour equal to double its force? As armour equal to whatever armour the ally spirit was modeled after (IE, an ally spirit longcoat provides 4/2, regardless of Force)?
Mechanically, then, would you treat the annoyed spirit as normal armour equal to double its force? As armour equal to whatever armour the ally spirit was modeled after (IE, an ally spirit longcoat provides 4/2, regardless of Force)?
I can't even begin to guess what kind of armor bonus this would give, I'd prolly just disallow it. If it was forced on me though, I'd give it the armor rating of whatever it was modeled after for the person wearing it. The spirit itself would get it's normal resistance though.
However, I do know that I would treat this very much the same as a character having his spirit take drain for him, as far as the spirit is concerned. He/she's gonna be pissed.
Now what kind of damage does a spirit do if it manifests as a sword?
However, I do know that I would treat this very much the same as a character having his spirit take drain for him, as far as the spirit is concerned. He/she's gonna be pissed.
Now what kind of damage does a spirit do if it manifests as a sword?
| QUOTE (FrostyNSO) |
| Now what kind of damage does a spirit do if it manifests as a sword? |
Well, that one's easy - it does (STR+2)M, on account of while it may keep all its stats in that form, it doesn't actually have any powers that would be applicable in such a form.
Well, except for Three Dimensional Movement, but all that would do is let the sword swing itself.
yeah, use the normal armor rating. After all, it's form is as an armored long coat, so it's an armored long coat. But the ally it's self can take damage too if the hit is strong enough. So you're shooting two targets at once. Everything else that goes through, well, it rips the coat or whatever, but isn't enough to hurt the spirit. Kind of like a lot of ant bites will hurt, but they won't do much to ya'.
When I tried a similar thing with a GM, his responce was that Immunity to Normal Weapons for spirits did not mean it bounced, it meant the attack simply had no effect on the spirit. This meant a bullet might go through the spirit and it just wouldn't care. The rules are pretty much silent here. The closest to RAW would probably be #2, as there are no Over Penetration rules in SR.
Or have him take the form of a circular wall above, below, and around you with strategically placed holes and 'glass' windows. Sure, it has just the stats of the spirit, but THEY don't know that, do that?
You should try having your ally spirit just make you not a target at all. Have the ally spirit take the form of a few dozen copies of you all holding hands and dancing around you like an Ipod commercial. After all, it's all just one item - It's just a very LARGE item. For maximum effect, you should be holding hands and dancing like a madman too while you're hurling manabolts.
Or have him take the form of a circular wall above, below, and around you with strategically placed holes and 'glass' windows. Sure, it has just the stats of the spirit, but THEY don't know that, do that?
You should try having your ally spirit just make you not a target at all. Have the ally spirit take the form of a few dozen copies of you all holding hands and dancing around you like an Ipod commercial. After all, it's all just one item - It's just a very LARGE item. For maximum effect, you should be holding hands and dancing like a madman too while you're hurling manabolts.
(edit): whoops
| QUOTE (Modesitt @ Jun 12 2005, 07:02 AM) |
| When I tried a similar thing with a GM, his responce was that Immunity to Normal Weapons for spirits did not mean it bounced, it meant the attack simply had no effect on the spirit. This meant a bullet might go through the spirit and it just wouldn't care. The rules are pretty much silent here. The closest to RAW would probably be #2, as there are no Over Penetration rules in SR. |
This is how I always figured it too. The way I rule it is that spirits, even manifested ones, are still not actually physical beings; their physical "body" is only a mental projection of themselves onto the physical plane, just as a mage's astral "body" is only a mental projection onto the astral plane. This means there's sort of an "externalization" of physical interaction: it's not happenning to the spirit, just the spirit's physical projection. Thus, the bullets and other smallish attacks will just pass through harmlessly, as if the spirit wasn't there, which he in fact isn't.
Even really strong attacks don't so much actually hurt a spirit so much as overpower the spirit's ability to "externalize" the damage. Stronger attacks overwhelm the spirit's ability to maintain the sort-of logical seperation between its true astral self and the physical "body" its created for itself, so the spirit takes damage.
Note that in all these cases the attack itself isn't physically losing any momentum, and therefore power; in either case the actual attack just passes right through the spirit as if it isn't there, which it in fact is not. So you're not going to get armor or any physical protection from a spirit, whether the spirit takes damage or not. You may get soft cover though from denying visability to the shooter; Modesitt's ideas are, IMO, good ones.
That the way I see it, Modesitt. Spirits are etherial collection of mana. Even in physical form there isn't much there to hurt. They have no internal organs. They don't bleed. Even if they have something that could pass as skin it isn't naturally solid, it is just solid because the spirit manifested that way.
Shooting a spirit is like shooting air.
It is better to use the spirit for cover. Give it the form is a semi truck. Stand behind it. Hide in the trailor. Ride in it. For fun, also give it the form of Optimus Prime.
Shooting a spirit is like shooting air.
It is better to use the spirit for cover. Give it the form is a semi truck. Stand behind it. Hide in the trailor. Ride in it. For fun, also give it the form of Optimus Prime.
An excellent idea, hyzmarca, but only for an SR kabbalistic magic user (then things start getting strange).
I like the idea of spirits/elementals being used as magical clothing by the very rich for practical reasons (maybe an elemental, manifesting as a swirling blue brooch is sustaining the detect enemies spell a wealthy client ordered from their wage mage for the evening) and for purely aesthetic reasons (conspicuous consumption).
Also, using nature spirits manifest as moccasins helps you hide the evidence of your crime--the shoes vanish come sunrise (it also annoys the spirit, but anyhow....)
As for immunity to normal weapons, age, toxins (i.e., really rank b.o. in the longjohns example above), I would rule that ally-spirit-ware is simply a more robust version of the real item: no matter how many times you shoot the longjohns, the holes keep mending themselves. The blood stains will be a bit difficult to get out, though....
I like the idea of spirits/elementals being used as magical clothing by the very rich for practical reasons (maybe an elemental, manifesting as a swirling blue brooch is sustaining the detect enemies spell a wealthy client ordered from their wage mage for the evening) and for purely aesthetic reasons (conspicuous consumption).
Also, using nature spirits manifest as moccasins helps you hide the evidence of your crime--the shoes vanish come sunrise (it also annoys the spirit, but anyhow....)
As for immunity to normal weapons, age, toxins (i.e., really rank b.o. in the longjohns example above), I would rule that ally-spirit-ware is simply a more robust version of the real item: no matter how many times you shoot the longjohns, the holes keep mending themselves. The blood stains will be a bit difficult to get out, though....
| QUOTE (RangerJoe) |
| An excellent idea, hyzmarca, but only for an SR kabbalistic magic user (then things start getting strange). |
Could someone explain to me how kabbalistic magic works?
Also, considering that ally spirits can manifest as almost anything imagineable, why are there not vast numbers of mages soaring about on flying jetskis?
| QUOTE (SpasticTeapot) |
| Also, considering that ally spirits can manifest as almost anything imagineable, why are there not vast numbers of mages soaring about on flying jetskis? |
S=initial force + ritual improvements.
Carrying weight ~= S*10 kg (if you use the encumberance rules)
Human ~= 70 kg
Therefore, a spirit must be at least strength 7 to carry a naked human mage reliably according to the rules in the books. Also, with a speed of Q*3, the spirit isn't going very fast unless you can toss in another spirit to use the Movement power.
If you houserule alternate physical stat effects from certain physical forms and/or a less combat oriented set of encumberance rules, it may be more feasible.
I go with B and the option to just shoot the mage by using the partial cover rules, but B by default unless the shooter is aware of the situation. On top of that, I'd add in the fact that the ally spirit will try at any time it has the opportunity to go free. Once free, it will become a living nightmare for the one who tormented (by constantly putting him in danger in order to save his own life) and humiliated it (by making him into clothing) in such a way.
Indeed; you're basically using the spirit as a (not-so-human) shield; I'm sure the spirit would be justifyably upset.
I favour option C.
If it was forced on me I would probably treat it as armour of twice spirits force (not hardened unless the form is milspec armour)
The reason I gave it better armour than the form would normally have is that a bullet is far more likely to penetrate armour than a high force spirits body that is shaped like armour, but if the spirit is shaped into soft armour it can still crack ribs.
any hit must be resisted buy the spirit and the mage, this counts as especially dangerous service buy the spirit and will affect the chance eth spirit will attempt to break free and its mentality afterwards accordingly.
The spirit can use its 3d movement power to make you fly if it can carry the weight and can use its combat pool to dodge you out of the way, if you are flying you can not use your CP to dodge, on the ground in any given turn only the spirit OR the mage can use CP to dodge
This of cause is not backed up buy the rules, the rules don’t cover the situation so this is what I see as making sense
The no physical interaction theory doesn’t work for me as that would imply that a manifest spirit would have some difficulty handing small objects and could even be run threw buy a car without damage to the car
Edward
If it was forced on me I would probably treat it as armour of twice spirits force (not hardened unless the form is milspec armour)
The reason I gave it better armour than the form would normally have is that a bullet is far more likely to penetrate armour than a high force spirits body that is shaped like armour, but if the spirit is shaped into soft armour it can still crack ribs.
any hit must be resisted buy the spirit and the mage, this counts as especially dangerous service buy the spirit and will affect the chance eth spirit will attempt to break free and its mentality afterwards accordingly.
The spirit can use its 3d movement power to make you fly if it can carry the weight and can use its combat pool to dodge you out of the way, if you are flying you can not use your CP to dodge, on the ground in any given turn only the spirit OR the mage can use CP to dodge
This of cause is not backed up buy the rules, the rules don’t cover the situation so this is what I see as making sense
The no physical interaction theory doesn’t work for me as that would imply that a manifest spirit would have some difficulty handing small objects and could even be run threw buy a car without damage to the car
Edward
| QUOTE (Edward) |
| The no physical interaction theory doesn’t work for me as that would imply that a manifest spirit would have some difficulty handing small objects and could even be run threw buy a car without damage to the car |
What's wrong with that? IMO spirits *should* have some problems interacting with the real world until they get used to using a manifested body. The physical world is a very alien place to a newly-summoned spirit, at least that's how I treat it, and that's why spirits tend not to actually manifest unless they are forced to. Spirits get used to working in the physical plane about as quickly as humans get used to driving their body by remote.
To elaborate on EB's...
Why the hell would there be the option of creating homunculi if you could just have the spirit manifest as a ton of steel in the first place?
Why the hell would there be the option of creating homunculi if you could just have the spirit manifest as a ton of steel in the first place?
Homonculi are probably the single most useless thing in the game. I've yet to find a point in bothering with one except for niche (largely NPC) ideas.
The point of a homunculus is supposed to be that the spirit is easier to control.
[quote = MITS p 108 2nd collum top]
Magicians often have there allies inhabit homunculi so that they may be better controlled
[/quote]
this however makes little sense as mechanically a summoners control of an ally spirit is absolute until it goes free. As far as I can determine the chance of an ally spirit going free is not reduced if it has the inhabiting power.
Edward
[quote = MITS p 108 2nd collum top]
Magicians often have there allies inhabit homunculi so that they may be better controlled
[/quote]
this however makes little sense as mechanically a summoners control of an ally spirit is absolute until it goes free. As far as I can determine the chance of an ally spirit going free is not reduced if it has the inhabiting power.
Edward
Well, really it's more so the spirit is more directly tied to the physical world, at least that's how I read it.
Inhabitating is a cheap way to increase the Ally's physical stats. Well, its cheap if you go with a critter, al least.
I have to side with those who have chosen option C.
Really now, who thiks this stuff up?
Oh yeah, roleplayers. LOL
Really now, who thiks this stuff up?
Oh yeah, roleplayers. LOL
In my opinion, option C is only an option if you're a poor GM and/or are playing with people who you don't respect and who don't respect you.
Well aren't you a party pooper.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| In my opinion, option C is only an option if you're a poor GM and/or are playing with people who you don't respect and who don't respect you. |
Well, I don't know. The only reason I included option C is because my group takes to sourcebook fencing when some of us are finished chargen and others aren't, so it's not an uncommon occurence to take a BBB to the temple.
| QUOTE |
| The no physical interaction theory doesn’t work for me as that would imply that a manifest spirit would have some difficulty handing small objects and could even be run threw buy a car without damage to the car |
Not necessarily. A powerball has no physical component that can be stopped by armor, but it still can affect physical objects. Just because they're manifest doesn't mean they're totally physical.
I tend to view it as being partly-physical; the spirit takes in enough matter to affect things, but not so much as to bind them into a physical form. A great enough disruption of the material part will damage the spirit, but it takes quite a bit of work to do so.
At any event, I wouldn't allow it to work. Spirits are not armor. If you want your ally to also act as armor, make it inhabit a suit of FFBA.
I want to make an insect spirit hat.
| QUOTE |
| I want to make an insect spirit hat. |
...and a toxic hearth spirit jock strap...
Now that's just redundant.
But would it get a bonus based on being in a toxic zone?
Clearly it would get a bonus to resting at a jaunty angle.
| QUOTE (SkeevePlowse) |
| Clearly it would get a bonus to resting at a jaunty angle. |
I dunno, but that seems like it'd make for one hell of a geas.
edit: for a Horned Man shaman maybe?
I would rule it this way:
If the attack has no way of affecting the spirit it passes through and affects the person instead.
If the attack has the chance to affect the spirit, then resolve as per spirit rules, any damage that gets throuogh is taken first by the spirit, if the spirit is destroyed pass the attack through to the PC but reduce it's force by the force of the spirit.
Add a knockdown test to the person wearing the spirit armor based on the power of the attack that makes it through.
If the attack has no way of affecting the spirit it passes through and affects the person instead.
If the attack has the chance to affect the spirit, then resolve as per spirit rules, any damage that gets throuogh is taken first by the spirit, if the spirit is destroyed pass the attack through to the PC but reduce it's force by the force of the spirit.
Add a knockdown test to the person wearing the spirit armor based on the power of the attack that makes it through.
- One might add that if a Sprit can use its power to do things like Confusion (target selected), Concealment(target selected) etc... That the ability to pass on the "Immunity to..." whatever if possible based on the loose rules.
- If it was my game I would have to rule that it is a person power that can't be targeted as it is a personal power meaning for itself only based on what it is i.e. no control over it.
- The Spirit/Elemental bound into a Homoculus still would only be an outer shell housing the Spirit and would apply to the rules of destruction of the shell.
- Ever thought of "baninshing"
- If it was my game I would have to rule that it is a person power that can't be targeted as it is a personal power meaning for itself only based on what it is i.e. no control over it.
- The Spirit/Elemental bound into a Homoculus still would only be an outer shell housing the Spirit and would apply to the rules of destruction of the shell.
- Ever thought of "baninshing"
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