In the SR3R revised thread on ranged combat, Kagetenshi described gun canes and bracers as the following:
Full Version: Gun Canes: revitalizing the elegant weapon.
| QUOTE |
| The Gun Cane and Bracer each only get one round, and the Bracer receives a flat +1 TN mod. I think that's punishment enough. Oh, they also use Hold-Out ranges and deal 6L. You know, I might as well not bother considering them, because no one is ever going to use them. |
I was wondering if we might actually make them usefull, possibly upping the calibre, and incorporating metalstorm technology.
Why not? It's one use, and anyone who would actually use them (the elderly and execs in social circles) would probably pay to buy a cane that fires up to six shots in a row.
I think you could get up to 7.62 rounds to fit, maybe underpowered as far as powder loads go, but for a one-use thing it could work.
I look forward to opinions.
Metalstorm in a cane? I love it!! I will now have to beg my game master for one.
Shouldn't canes be considered rifles, due to the barrel length? If they aren't, I can't imagine that making one that is would be terribly difficult...
I should think a firearm as awkward as a gun cane is best at very close range work against unsuspecting enemies, and so chambering one for a rifle caliber, or anything with small bullets fired at high speeds, would be rather pointless. Better stick with pistol calibers, and not terribly powerful ones either to protect your wrists.
Metalstorm-like technology would certainly help on making a repeating gun cane. With a decently thick cane, you could easily fit something like 15 9x19mm-equivalent metalstorm rounds in the barrel and still have enough left to give them all decent muzzle velocity. Firing them in fully automatic mode is not recommended, though, because of the horribly unergonomic design of such a weapon. The weapon would also be far too heavy to pass as a regular cane, especially so with the freaky SR3 ammo weights.
Metalstorm-like technology would certainly help on making a repeating gun cane. With a decently thick cane, you could easily fit something like 15 9x19mm-equivalent metalstorm rounds in the barrel and still have enough left to give them all decent muzzle velocity. Firing them in fully automatic mode is not recommended, though, because of the horribly unergonomic design of such a weapon. The weapon would also be far too heavy to pass as a regular cane, especially so with the freaky SR3 ammo weights.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| I should think a firearm as awkward as a gun cane is best at very close range work against unsuspecting enemies, and so chambering one for a rifle caliber, or anything with small bullets fired at high speeds, would be rather pointless. Better stick with pistol calibers, and not terribly powerful ones either to protect your wrists. Metalstorm-like technology would certainly help on making a repeating gun cane. With a decently thick cane, you could easily fit something like 15 9x19mm-equivalent metalstorm rounds in the barrel and still have enough left to give them all decent muzzle velocity. Firing them in fully automatic mode is not recommended, though, because of the horribly unergonomic design of such a weapon. The weapon would also be far too heavy to pass as a regular cane, especially so with the freaky SR3 ammo weights. |
A 16 guage shotgun shell would probably be more effective and still reasonable to fire with the proper stance.
Repeating guncanes are rather pointless because of their inaccuracy. They aren't meant fror long range firefights. The are close up assasination weapons. You blow an unsuspecting spy's face off as you pass him on the street without alerting everyone who sees you. There isn't much else you can do with them.
The KGB did it better, they use an umbrella to inject targets with a tiny hollow steel ball that is filled with a deadly poision. The poision slowly releases into the target's body through tiny holes in the ball over a period of days. The target doesn't even know what happened. He thinks that someone accidently poked him with an umbrella n the street and he started coming down with the flu several hours later. He's dead in a fairly short time. The poision and the delivery method might be found in an autopsy but the kiler is long gone by then.
I though it was Serin tablets and it occurred in England...
I personally think that an unrifled barrel and a 16-guage shotgun shell is not unreasonable for a shadowrunner-esque weapon. Of course, I rule that "light" pistols do 6M damage, so the base damage is not unreasonable considering that they A. likely use relatively small amounts of propellant and B. that Joe Shadowrunner likely uses something much, much nastier.
It was ricin, I do believe.
| QUOTE (Jrayjoker) |
| I though it was Serin tablets and it occurred in England... |
It did happen in England. The victim was Gregory Markov, a Bulgarian broadcaster for the BBC. The poison was Ricin (from the Castor Oil plant) in a hollowed out metal sphere.
the best way to make cane guns and bracer guns useful without changing/addig rules is to remember that Surprise checks can occur at any time. if you pull a cane gun, bracer gun, or other disguised weapon on someone who doesn't know you're armed, you get to make a surprise check with the -2 TN for prepared ambush. if you win, your opponent doesn't get to dodge.
if you're talking about adding/changing rules, though, here are some suggestions:
1) make all holdouts and light pistols (and gun ganes/ bracer guns) deal M base instead of L base. there are problems with this, but you can work those out yourself.
2) don't allow characters who fail a Perception check to make a Surprise test at all. this cuts down on un-ambushable high-Reaction chars, making it more likely that even low-Rea characters can successfully get a Surprise attack in with their disguised weapon.
if you're talking about adding/changing rules, though, here are some suggestions:
1) make all holdouts and light pistols (and gun ganes/ bracer guns) deal M base instead of L base. there are problems with this, but you can work those out yourself.
2) don't allow characters who fail a Perception check to make a Surprise test at all. this cuts down on un-ambushable high-Reaction chars, making it more likely that even low-Rea characters can successfully get a Surprise attack in with their disguised weapon.
THree words: Coup da grace. Nothin' says lovin' like beating the characters to the point of death then casually walking over, pressing the walking stick against their head and watch them watch you as you pull the trigger.
Cane guns are for pimps. This, however, would be a tad more discreet.
Reports are that that's not a hoax. In that case, why does the operator press different buttons to fire, and does it fire through the top of the phone or are there unshown holes that would make it obviously suspicious? The report I saw claimed that that fired through the antenna, but if I'm identifying parts correctly the rounds appear to have not moved in the final picture. Any ideas?
~J
~J
I have seen the gun cane used exactly once by PCs and once by an NPC.
We were walking through the barrens just after a run and a PC asked "Is there anyone around I could switch clothes with?" So the GM said to him that the char observed an old blind man heading down the street with a big dog on a leash, tap-tapping the ground with his cane as he went.
So he walked up to the guy, put his dog down in one shot, and ordered him to hand over everything on him or else he'll kill him. Then the dogs' wounds regenerated, it stood back up and just growled at the char.
The old geezer turned to the char and said "You better not mess with Jack. He doesn't like people." What does the char do? He shoots the dog again. The old "blind" man lifted his gun cane and shot the char. He had an internal smartlink in the gun cane, five skill, and the cane loaded with ex-explosive rounds. He threw 5 combat pool into the shot and scored 10 successes. The char didn't roll a single success on soak and went down. The Dog took the chars' left hand as a trophy, but the char lived.
The old "blind" man and his "dog" went on to become a running joke in the game. Any time any of us asked some general question about who was in the area the GM would include the old "blind" man and his dog.
---
The other time involved the same group pretending to be collecting charity for the blind. We did it for real for a couple houses before the marks, then walked up to his house and asked for money. Then everyone other than the face raised their gun cane in and fired in unison.
---
The real reason I've never seen a single char take gun cane or bracer skill is that the weapons have an availability too high to start off with, so you start the game with a skill you can't actually use at all. If you lowered their availabilities to something sane, you'd see the occassional char use them even though they're certaintly not very useful. Consolidate skills and SOMEONE will build a char around never using a conventional weapon. That would be cool.
We were walking through the barrens just after a run and a PC asked "Is there anyone around I could switch clothes with?" So the GM said to him that the char observed an old blind man heading down the street with a big dog on a leash, tap-tapping the ground with his cane as he went.
So he walked up to the guy, put his dog down in one shot, and ordered him to hand over everything on him or else he'll kill him. Then the dogs' wounds regenerated, it stood back up and just growled at the char.
The old geezer turned to the char and said "You better not mess with Jack. He doesn't like people." What does the char do? He shoots the dog again. The old "blind" man lifted his gun cane and shot the char. He had an internal smartlink in the gun cane, five skill, and the cane loaded with ex-explosive rounds. He threw 5 combat pool into the shot and scored 10 successes. The char didn't roll a single success on soak and went down. The Dog took the chars' left hand as a trophy, but the char lived.
The old "blind" man and his "dog" went on to become a running joke in the game. Any time any of us asked some general question about who was in the area the GM would include the old "blind" man and his dog.
---
The other time involved the same group pretending to be collecting charity for the blind. We did it for real for a couple houses before the marks, then walked up to his house and asked for money. Then everyone other than the face raised their gun cane in and fired in unison.
---
The real reason I've never seen a single char take gun cane or bracer skill is that the weapons have an availability too high to start off with, so you start the game with a skill you can't actually use at all. If you lowered their availabilities to something sane, you'd see the occassional char use them even though they're certaintly not very useful. Consolidate skills and SOMEONE will build a char around never using a conventional weapon. That would be cool.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Repeating guncanes are rather pointless because of their inaccuracy. They aren't meant fror long range firefights. The are close up assasination weapons. You blow an unsuspecting spy's face off as you pass him on the street without alerting everyone who sees you. There isn't much else you can do with them. |
So a single 16G shotgun shot won't alert people?
Weapons like that are generally good for getting into places with high levels of personal but not technological security. I can think of places like that where a shadowrunner might want to fire a weapon more than once. 9mm pistol ammo could also be fitted inside a cane under 1.5cm/0.6" in diameter, while a 16G guncane would have to be about 25cm/1" or thicker. However, I'm definitely not saying a metalstorm-guncane is a likely weapon, just a curious one. As has been mentioned above, other common items might be better for building a gun into.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jun 16 2005, 02:25 AM) |
| Reports are that that's not a hoax. In that case, why does the operator press different buttons to fire, and does it fire through the top of the phone or are there unshown holes that would make it obviously suspicious? |
On this cell gun, there are four rounds (.22 LR) in four chambers, thus four muzzles on the top of the "phone". Each chamber has a button/trigger behind it that releases a striker and fires the round.
I'm sure it wouldn't hold up to close examination, but I doubt that there would be many situations in which a person would bother to look that close at an object as innocuous as cell phones are these days. They come in so many goofy shapes and sizes anymore that one with holes on the top is probably not going to arouse a lot of suspicion, if they're seen at all.
| QUOTE (Dmitri) |
| bit of a side note, but it fits in the thread- Flashlight shotgun |
LOL, it's also built by ares.
Another solution would be to put a .410 gauge shotgun shell in the very end of the cane, doing away with the barrel (you really don't need it anyway, at that range)
titanium, ceramics, or other strong materiel would form a threaded tube that surrounded the shell, and this would screw onto the endof the stick, which had a firing pin at the end, and a trigger halfway up.
you could get at least 7S damage, five meter range, and a fixed choke.
| QUOTE (Raygun) |
| On this cell gun, there are four rounds (.22 LR) in four chambers, thus four muzzles on the top of the "phone". Each chamber has a button/trigger behind it that releases a striker and fires the round. I'm sure it wouldn't hold up to close examination, but I doubt that there would be many situations in which a person would bother to look that close at an object as innocuous as cell phones are these days. They come in so many goofy shapes and sizes anymore that one with holes on the top is probably not going to arouse a lot of suspicion, if they're seen at all. |
I hear that it's meaningfully heavier than most normal cellphones. That does make things make more sense, though; much appreciated.
~J
.410 shotshell out of a <2" barrel = 7S? Nuh-uh. You'd be lucky to get 220gr of shot up to 600fps at the muzzle -- a .38 Special Multi-Ball out of a 4" revolver barrel would likely be just as or more effective. 6M(f) would be generous enough.
A barrel doesn't just magically increase the range of a weapon, it gives the propellant gases more time (and space) to push the projectile to a higher velocity. No barrel and all you get is a little prod.
A barrel doesn't just magically increase the range of a weapon, it gives the propellant gases more time (and space) to push the projectile to a higher velocity. No barrel and all you get is a little prod.
a .410 at the end of a stick is more commonly known as a boom-stick or a bang-stick, no really, the fireing pin is fixed, and to fire you force the face of the shell into the target. they come in other sizes and calibers. some are used in fishing for finishing off dangerous fish/sharks/crocs so it could work, you'd just have to be really close. and the body would muffle most of the sound. I think a 16ga shot barrel in a walking stick would be a bit conspicuous, at the least people might take it for a cane sword. I've seen pics of a five shot .22lr revolver built into the handle of an umbrella, it was quite conseiled, that book also had a pic of a .22 short pistol that looked like a pocket knife. there are plenty of powerful little guns that the ranges are measured in feet, if you want to add assaination weapons it not that hard. I suppose you could conceil a single shot long rifle into a heavy walking stick, the sighting may be a bit tricky... maybe a laser? I don't think youd need a skill, as most engagements with these types of weaons would have to be under eight feet.
If metal storm was to become a conmen technology I would expect most gun canes to use it, unfortunately in SR metal storm never became more than a curiosity.
The way I would make them useful is to use capsula rounds, take your pick of toxin and add DMSO.
Edward
The way I would make them useful is to use capsula rounds, take your pick of toxin and add DMSO.
Edward
Actually, there is another solution.
Over on Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace, one of the characters--Terry Symonz, street name "Ocelot"-- has a multipurpose cane.
It contains a single-shot minigrenade launcher, which the owner normally uses to fire air-timed flash-bangs, as a means of gaining the advantage of surprise in a close-quarters fight.
Left-click on "Campaign", then on "Originals", then on "Weapons".
--Foreigner
Over on Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace, one of the characters--Terry Symonz, street name "Ocelot"-- has a multipurpose cane.
It contains a single-shot minigrenade launcher, which the owner normally uses to fire air-timed flash-bangs, as a means of gaining the advantage of surprise in a close-quarters fight.
Left-click on "Campaign", then on "Originals", then on "Weapons".
--Foreigner
I wouldn't have a problem with allowing a gun cane to incorporate a one-shot (or maybe even two-shot) 'burst-fire' capability like that used in the Thunderbolt.
These are stealth weapons that let people be armed but ALSO should allow the shooter to escape. If you are in an area where you need to sneak a weapon in, then security would be tight. If the shot is seen and you can't get away, then the sec if going to fall on you and you're unloaded gun like a deevil on a gold piece.
One appeared in the book Casino Royal. pressed against the hero's back as he sat at a card table he was told to loose the next hand or they would shoot. at that range it would blow out his spine but the length of the cane was a big silencer so people would think he's just fained from the stress of the game, while the assassin escaped into the crowd.
One appeared in the book Casino Royal. pressed against the hero's back as he sat at a card table he was told to loose the next hand or they would shoot. at that range it would blow out his spine but the length of the cane was a big silencer so people would think he's just fained from the stress of the game, while the assassin escaped into the crowd.
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
| then the sec if going to fall on you and you're unloaded gun like a deevil on a gold piece. |
LOL. So are Deevils and Perverts considered meta-varients?
That's Pervect!
No, no... Prevert.
Virtual Karma, cookie, or beer if you get the reference I'm thinking of.
Virtual Karma, cookie, or beer if you get the reference I'm thinking of.
We cannot allow a mine-shaft gap!
~J
~J
You need to load the gun cane with FRAG-12 shotgun ammo
I think the fin-stabilized shaped-charge armor piercing variant would mess up nearly anyone's day.
-karma
I think the fin-stabilized shaped-charge armor piercing variant would mess up nearly anyone's day.
-karma
| QUOTE (Thomas) |
| No, no... Prevert. Virtual Karma, cookie, or beer if you get the reference I'm thinking of. |
That's pervect if you want to do business with them.
(Glad someone caught it AH et al.)
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| We cannot allow a mine-shaft gap! ~J |
Excellent - what reward would you have?
Dr. Strangelove
How about this weapon:
Base form is a staff, thats 1,8m. Its wide, but not more than you can reach around for a good grip, like a good hiking staff.
The first 50cm is the barrel, then the firing mechanism, followed by an internal magasine holding 12 shots. The gun has no trigger, but can be controlled by smartlink or datajack. - Its designed to fire caseless ammo.
Its fitted with a heavy barrel, gasvent IV and the grip is treated with a ribbed slightly abrasive surface to ensure stability, equivalent to shockpads. Its capable of SA/BF.
The surface of the staff can be metallic, black, woodlike or any other design the buyer would like.
In the other end, a bayonet is hidden in the stock, and can be sprung out 20cm. For an extra fee, this blade can be Dikote treated for extra durability.
Both ends are protected from debris, when not activated, by small slides that cover any openings. Reloading is done by feeding more ammo into the slot approx. midlength.
Mage Friend Mark I (Shotgun):
Conceal 2, Ammo 12(m), Mode BF/SA, Damage 10S, Weight 5, Availability ?/?, cost ?.
Melee: +2 Reach, STR+2M, Dikoted STR+3S.
Melee as staff: +2 Reach, STR+3M Stun.
I have been checking the cc, and kept the stats within the limits given therein. It can be fitted with both a laser sight and the standard internal smartlink-II, only one in use at a time. Either of these pop out of an internal compartment just behind the firing mechanism. The laser sight cannot be replaced with a larger laser, only the customized smallsize laser made specificly for this product fits.
Its longer than a normal shotgun, so I figured it would have room for the two sights internally.
So, opinions? - Help me set availability, price and legality code?
Base form is a staff, thats 1,8m. Its wide, but not more than you can reach around for a good grip, like a good hiking staff.
The first 50cm is the barrel, then the firing mechanism, followed by an internal magasine holding 12 shots. The gun has no trigger, but can be controlled by smartlink or datajack. - Its designed to fire caseless ammo.
Its fitted with a heavy barrel, gasvent IV and the grip is treated with a ribbed slightly abrasive surface to ensure stability, equivalent to shockpads. Its capable of SA/BF.
The surface of the staff can be metallic, black, woodlike or any other design the buyer would like.
In the other end, a bayonet is hidden in the stock, and can be sprung out 20cm. For an extra fee, this blade can be Dikote treated for extra durability.
Both ends are protected from debris, when not activated, by small slides that cover any openings. Reloading is done by feeding more ammo into the slot approx. midlength.
Mage Friend Mark I (Shotgun):
Conceal 2, Ammo 12(m), Mode BF/SA, Damage 10S, Weight 5, Availability ?/?, cost ?.
Melee: +2 Reach, STR+2M, Dikoted STR+3S.
Melee as staff: +2 Reach, STR+3M Stun.
I have been checking the cc, and kept the stats within the limits given therein. It can be fitted with both a laser sight and the standard internal smartlink-II, only one in use at a time. Either of these pop out of an internal compartment just behind the firing mechanism. The laser sight cannot be replaced with a larger laser, only the customized smallsize laser made specificly for this product fits.
Its longer than a normal shotgun, so I figured it would have room for the two sights internally.
So, opinions? - Help me set availability, price and legality code?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.