Can there be only two layers of armor? If so, then would putting FFBA under two layers be effectivately replacing the worst armor with the better or ignored entirely?
One of my new players brought this up, which I hadn't really thought about before (and if this is true I'm going to yank the rug from under another one of my players)
I.E. here's the example.
If you have a 4/2 and a 3/1 already on, you have a 5/2 rating.
Upon adding a 4/1 suit of FF would which happen?
A) it will only net you 1 point of Ballistic, because the 4/1 replaces the lower 3/1 item you were wearing. So you'd have 6/2 and the 3/1 armor would be totally useless, as it's giving you nothing.
B) it's ignored because you already have a second layer.
C) it adds another layer to the layers, creating 7/2 armor.
Let's stick to canon for the moment, anyways - and yes I did do a search for this, and didn't see anything immediately.
Full Version: Armor Layering and FFBA
Your armor rating would be 7/2.
A lot of people around here adhere to the poor wording of the layering rules, but common sense dictates that if you're wearing X and Y for armor and then throw Z on, Z is still going to help protect you. Of course some of the people who adhere to that wording will also try and tell you that you can only wear two pieces of armor (and I know of at least one who keeps trying to tell you that you can't wear any two pieces of armor if they have an * on them, ala the piecemail armors in CC) -- that it's physically and utterly impossible to wear anything else when doing so.
So... in the end, go with what feels right for you. In my experience, multiple layers of armor (with only the highest rating Ballistic/Impact ratings being the full ratings; everything else is halved, rounded down) work just fine and aren't imbalanced in the slightest. You just have to be reasonable with what's worn; wearing an Armored Jacket and Lined Coat is an example of something that's unreasonable, while wearing an Armored Jacket, Armored Clothing, Forearm Guards, and Form-Fitting Body Armor is just fine.
A lot of people around here adhere to the poor wording of the layering rules, but common sense dictates that if you're wearing X and Y for armor and then throw Z on, Z is still going to help protect you. Of course some of the people who adhere to that wording will also try and tell you that you can only wear two pieces of armor (and I know of at least one who keeps trying to tell you that you can't wear any two pieces of armor if they have an * on them, ala the piecemail armors in CC) -- that it's physically and utterly impossible to wear anything else when doing so.
So... in the end, go with what feels right for you. In my experience, multiple layers of armor (with only the highest rating Ballistic/Impact ratings being the full ratings; everything else is halved, rounded down) work just fine and aren't imbalanced in the slightest. You just have to be reasonable with what's worn; wearing an Armored Jacket and Lined Coat is an example of something that's unreasonable, while wearing an Armored Jacket, Armored Clothing, Forearm Guards, and Form-Fitting Body Armor is just fine.
The text only speaks of the primary and secondary layers, but does not explicitly forbid effect of a tertiary layer.
So, without extrapolating anything, and just using the book, A.
B is just wrong because the first and second layer are defined as the highest and second highest values in each armor category. So a 4/2 and a 2/4 worn together become 5/5 since the first layer of impact is the second layer of ballistic.
So, without extrapolating anything, and just using the book, A.
B is just wrong because the first and second layer are defined as the highest and second highest values in each armor category. So a 4/2 and a 2/4 worn together become 5/5 since the first layer of impact is the second layer of ballistic.
edit: I was wrong
It states it's not counted as a layer for loss of combat pool due to excess armor. So you don't add the 4/2 when determining if you have exceeded your quickness when determining combat pool penalties, but it never states that it is purely additory armor like helmets, forearm guards, and armor spells.
edit: well, now this post doesn't fit in cleanly anymore
edit: well, now this post doesn't fit in cleanly anymore
As defined by the FAQ, A is correct. It is also the interpretation used at the cons and by both Mike Mulvihll and Rob Boyle when I asked originally. I agree with Doc Funk on this one but the authors see it different.
Thankfully, this and other divisive questions will hopefully go away in August.
Thankfully, this and other divisive questions will hopefully go away in August.
A is correct, by the rules. You can wear as many layers as you want. You get armor benefits from the two best layers - full value from the best, half value from the second-best.
No, the rules only talk about two layers, they never say that you cannot gain any additional protection from other layers. One does not mean the other, but that never convinces anyone around here.
Okay - now what interpretation do you guys use? And does it seem balanced to have that third layer count? (I know Doc says yes... 
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I tend to allow it, but it does generally mean the armor layering penalties get applied. After all, you can also gain armor from a shield, a helmet, and forearm guards; adding a jacket just doesn't seem quite as extreme.
The rules never say that you don't get a billion extra points of armor for adding a third layer, either. There's a lot of things that the rules don't say. That doesn't make them canon.
the rules don't say there's a two-layer limit. ergo, the two-layer limit must not be canon.
The examples never list three or more items -- that doesn't mean it's correct to assume three or more items are impossible to wear.
You're nowhere limited to wearing only two layers. (And I don't recall ever seeing anyone claim that you were. I've certainly never done so, nor has anyone else in this thread, except for Doc Funk's straw man.)
However, the method given for calculating protection from worn armor uses two and only two layers, and never expresses or implies that any further layers should be figured into the calculation at all. Figuring third and subsequent layers into the calculation in any way is not covered by the rules. Any handling of the situation that figures third and subsequent layers in is therefore making up house rules. You're free to make up house rules, of course, but they're still house rules.
However, the method given for calculating protection from worn armor uses two and only two layers, and never expresses or implies that any further layers should be figured into the calculation at all. Figuring third and subsequent layers into the calculation in any way is not covered by the rules. Any handling of the situation that figures third and subsequent layers in is therefore making up house rules. You're free to make up house rules, of course, but they're still house rules.
| QUOTE |
| You're nowhere limited to wearing only two layers. (And I don't recall ever seeing anyone claim that you were. I've certainly never done so, nor has anyone else in this thread, except for Doc Funk's straw man.) |
Your blatant ignorance of past discussions is not my failing. Feel free to go look through old threads on the topic, and look in particular for posts by toturi (such as this recent thread).
| QUOTE |
| However, the method given for calculating protection from worn armor uses two and only two layers, and never expresses or implies that any further layers should be figured into the calculation at all. |
Yes, the text does speak about two layers. No one said otherwise. However, that doesn't mean that only two layers can be worn and still grant you benefits, especially with the inclusion of later items like Form-Fitting Body Armor ("...form-fitting armor can be worn with other armor...") on both a logical and a common sense level.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Your blatant ignorance of past discussions is not my failing. Feel free to go look through old threads on the topic, and look in particular for posts by toturi (such as this recent thread). |
And your inability to read is not my failing. toturi did not claim anywhere in the linked thread that you were limited to wearing only two layers of armor. His posts appear to address only layering certain types of the designer armor from CC, which is a rather different issue, in that they have special rules that apply. And even then, he only says that you can't wear certain specific pieces together, not that you can't wear three or more layers of any of the other pieces.
| QUOTE |
| Yes, the text does speak about two layers. No one said otherwise. However, that doesn't mean that only two layers can be worn and still grant you benefits, especially with the inclusion of later items like Form-Fitting Body Armor ("...form-fitting armor can be worn with other armor...") on both a logical and a common sense level. |
So quote me the rule that tells you how to calculate the benefits from the third layer.
Umm... the rules specifically state that you can only wear two layers and gain a benefit. Any more than that, and you start to look like a "walking punching bag".
| QUOTE (John Campbell @ Jun 16 2005, 12:33 AM) |
| And your inability to read is not my failing. |
Yours, too, as you apparently didn't read the entirity of what I wrote -- namely in looking it up the past threads yourself because I'm not going to bother wasting my time to compensate for your ignorance -- nor the "strawman fallacy" you accused me of using (in which I specifically included toturi's example of the astericked armors).
| QUOTE |
| So quote me the rule that tells you how to calculate the benefits from the third layer. |
Ooh, ooh. I played this game just recently, too. <ahems> "Quote me the rule that says you don't gain any benefit from more than two layers of armor." Yay!
That said, I can point you to numerous sources that imply that you do (but again, I'm not going to waste my time typing them up for you). Let's start with the very first sentence of the layering armor rules, and then the first half of the very next sentence (and note here, in particular, that it doesn't say "can only layer two pieces of armor" -- in fact, that's never stated anywhere in the rules despite your desperate desire for that to be the case). Then take a look at the very first sentence of the third paragraph. Note the use of the word "Generally" at the beginning. Got those? Okay, now go pick up the Cannon Companion and have a gander at the Form-Fitting Body Armor entry. Done with that one?
Now once you're done there, feel free to explain to me -- on a purely non-rules basis -- why wearing, say, Armored Clothing, a Form-Fitting Shirt, and a Lined Coat shouldn't provide more protection than just the Armored Clothing and Lined Coat.
Then (and here's the big point), once you're done there, go back and read my original post in this thread again and pay careful attention to where I admit that some people prefer to adhere to the poor wording of the layering rules, and even encouraged the original poster to use whichever method he felt was right. <gasp!>
Finally, once you're done with all that, read over the entire thread again and note that I'm not the only one who believes the rules allow for more than two layers. I know you're probably going to keep focusing on my posts, though, because of your petty little hatred of me from some slight I did you in the past or whatever, but I thought I'd point that out nonetheless.
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| Umm... the rules specifically state that you can only wear two layers and gain a benefit. Any more than that, and you start to look like a "walking punching bag". |
no, it doesn't. it says you can only layer one jacket or coat over clothing-style armor. that means that, say, FFBA+armored clothing+armored vest+jacket is kosher.
My understanding is the FFBA is never halved and doesn't count as one of the armors you apply the full benefit from highest, then half benefit from second highest rule.
Does it apply to the quickness limitation (no books here)?
Does it apply to the quickness limitation (no books here)?
What is the exact wording again? - FFBA only ignores one half of the rules, the part about armor layering. Hmm.. Maybe that does mean its not halved. I'll have to check that out again, everyone in our party uses FFBA almost all the time.
But it still counts against your QUI if you wear too much combined armor rating.
But it still counts against your QUI if you wear too much combined armor rating.
| QUOTE |
| But it still counts against your QUI if you wear too much combined armor rating. |
| QUOTE ("Errata") |
| p. 51: Form-Fitted Body Armor Add to the end of the last sentence of the second paragraph the phrase: "...nor does it count against any Quickness tests (p. 285, SR3). |
I believe the stacking rules still apply to FFBA - they just don't apply to quickness and combat pool penalties.
*gives Doc a cookie* I agree with you on this one.
*gives Doc a cookie* I agree with you on this one.
| QUOTE (DocMortand) |
| I believe the stacking rules still apply to FFBA - they just don't apply to quickness and combat pool penalties. *gives Doc a cookie* I agree with you on this one. |
Well of course you do, your both Doctors. Professional courtesy.
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