As a long time GM for Shadowrun since SR2, I look forward to the introduction of SR4 with a mixture of hope and fear.
Seeing what White Wolf did with World of Darkness and the seemingly total domination of the D20 system, I am fearful of dramatic changes in my beloved Shadowrun RPG.
I have read many of the opinions here and from the ShadowRN mailing list. In no particular order here are some of my thoughts and opinions:
1. Like many people I would like to see the artwork improved. The artwork quality has degraded in most products for years now, and newer products seem to be including fewer and fewer pictures and less standardized as well. We need Fanpro to hire someone specifically for coordination of artwork projects and art purchases to keep these necessary visual aids to reflect the correct requirements for SR artwork. I am happy to allow some "artistic license" but we need to have some standards, and especially we need solid consistency of art in a single sourcebook project.
I would request Fanpro go back to the old FASA tradition of including a correctly scaled, well designed picture for EVERY piece of equipment and/or weapon. I especially like the style of 1 weapon/equipment per page with large text/picture/and shadow comments and I am willing to pay good money for sourcebooks of that type (Fields of Fire was and is my favorite Shadowrun book).
2. I want the new SR4 main sourcebook to include 5-6 pages with a few short stories about how normal people in 2070 go about their daily lives. How does a troll bouncer live? What about a corporate wageslave? How does a low lifestyle guy watch trideo? What appliances does the bachlor ultra-executive have in his SOTA techno-kitchen?
Then include a short story that follows a new group of shadowrunners on a first run and show the differences between so called "normal" life and the life of the shadows.
Equipment sections should include "Daily Household Technology" give me some future technology from the refrigerator that can tell if the Milk has gone bad, the combination toaster/microwave, the auto-chef soy processor, the Mitsohama Butler9000 drone, Flat surround speaker pads, 3D flat panel window displays, ComfortTech Memory Foam Couchs, etc. etc. etc. Heck, its ok if it is just 1 example for each appliance but give me some fodder for curious players.
Give more flavor to contacts and be sure to emphasize their importance to the shadowrunners. Fix the rules to make it a lot more work for characters to acquire and keep good contacts, and make more distinction between contract experience and trustworthy levels (As a GM I always make a full character sheet and history for each contact).
Conjuration should be more then allies, watchers, elementals/spirits
3. Make a big book for weapons/equipment in the style of Field of Fire (1 equipment/weapon per page w/artwork) for every published weapon or equipment in all sourcebooks and update them to SR4 standards. I don't care if it is 350 pages and $40. Publish it with loving quality and we WILL buy it. I would probably buy 2 (one for me and one for players). Also, might be nice if it was hardcover/closed -spiral bound so that it could lie on a table and not loose its page.
Closing...
I could make all kinds of suggestions for SR4, but I will simply wait and see with an open mind what Fanpro can produce.
Just make it still feel like shadowrun and not make my old collection obsolete and you will have my money.
-Flapjack
Full Version: My Polite Commentary about upcoming SR4
A lot of this has certainly been covered in other threads, but hey, I'm bored.
| QUOTE |
| I would request Fanpro go back to the old FASA tradition of including a correctly scaled, well designed picture for EVERY piece of equipment and/or weapon. |
I hope you're exagerating at least a little. The main manual certainly didn't have art for EACH piece of equipment. Keep in mind, art costs a lot, about as much as an article, if I remember correctly. Plus it takes up space. So art would be fair if you're willing to cut the number of weapons and equipment in half and raise the price slightly. Is this a trade you're willing to make? Is everyone else willing to make it? (I personally would like to see pictures for maybe a quarter of the guns, a few more than we saw in Cannon Companion, and I'd be willing to cut the number of guns by 30-50% After all, we really only use 10-15% with any frequency, the rest just feel like fluff.)
| QUOTE |
| SR4 main sourcebook to include 5-6 pages with a few short stories about how normal people in 2070 go about their daily lives. |
I wouldn't complain too much, but 2 pages should do. Remember, space is very valuable. I'd be willing to cut down a little on the starting story for that. But the manual shouldn't (or should I say, can't) go too in depth on that sort of thing for space constraints. That's what the SSG is for. I do like the idea of a book made more for 'beginning' Shadowrun people, with background information on the world and running it. Like a mix of MJLBB and SSG, but perhaps significantly lighter than both. Something small. Maybe through it together with the Quick Start Guide to make a reasonably sized book.
| QUOTE |
| Equipment sections should include "Daily Household Technology" |
Bleh. I can think of much better things to spend a page on. Stick it in the SSG. I mean really, what in the current manual would you be willing to drop for something like this?
| QUOTE |
| Make a big book for weapons/equipment in the style of Field of Fire (1 equipment/weapon per page w/artwork) for every published weapon or equipment in all sourcebooks and update them to SR4 standards. I don't care if it is 350 pages and $40. |
More like $60. And I'm afraid you'd be in the minority. The number of weapons and equipment compared to the cost of the book would be pretty bad.
You seem to forget that book publishing is a question of trade-offs. Every page costs money, every word, every piece of art (especially the art) costs lots of money. Thousands of dollars easily, and it adds up quick. So if you're talking about organization of the book, you need to do it keeping in mind that it's all about trade-offs. What are you willing to loose to get this? Reading your post, you seem to think getting art and cramming more stuff in is pretty trivial. It isn't. Suggest what you're willing to drop to get what you want in and your ideas gain a little more merit.
| QUOTE (Mightyflapjack) |
| I am happy to allow some "artistic license" but we need to have some standards, and especially we need solid consistency of art in a single sourcebook project. |
I think consistency in the written materials would be more of a priority.
| QUOTE |
| Seeing what White Wolf did with World of Darkness and the seemingly total domination of the D20 system, I am fearful of dramatic changes in my beloved Shadowrun RPG. |
From what I can tell, White Wolf didn;t dramatically change their mechanics, they merely tweaked them some. Some changes had more impact than others, but this wasn't anymore drastic than, say, SR1 to SR2 to SR3.
What they did do, however, and what hurt them bad, was that they changed the World, but they didn;t do it drastically enough (How's that for confusing?
). They completely trashed and restarted their game world, changing a ton of stuff around, getting rid of things, introducing others, and altering the way other familiar elements worked. The net result is WoD, but vastly, vastly different WoD. Nothing you knew really applies...At the same time, it's still World of Darkness. For someone like myself, who thought the core concept of the WoD was kind of interesting, if they'd only unify it, I always felt the end presentation sucked. Sadly, the end presentation is virtually identical to old WoD in tone and feel. But point 1 above turned off a lot of old fans, and point 2 kept those of us who may have gotten into the game away from it. End result... Not so good.
D20 on the otehr hand... That's a whole other ball of wax.
First off, you HAVE to seperate D&D out from D20. One is a specific game engine (or pices of one, anyways), the other is an actual game and, to some degree, a setting (albeit a generic one, unless applied to Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance or the like).
D&D 3rd edition was an unqualified, unprecedented success. With the exception of a small handful of folks, damn near everyone who's played D&D and played both 2nd and 3rd edition agrees that 3rd (and 3.5) are enormous improvements to the game. This is a game that had an initial print run of one million copies. And while it's debateable as to whether or not they actually sold that entire print run off, it's a fact that they did do a second printing (raising the price from $20 to $30), and sold a boat load of the $30 books. And THEN they turned around and made an updated 3.5 version and sold a metric ton of those (I have no clue on hard numbers, but have no doubt that it's 250,000).
Compare that to pretty much any other game company for whomne a print run of 20,000 to 50,000 is probably a big priint run for the top name companies, and smaller companies print 1-2,000, or less.
D20, like I said, is another subject. That's a brand that people could use "for free" and get instant brand recognition. That's like McDonalds saying "Hey, anyone can use the Golden Archers and add "mc" to the front of their food product". You get a LOT of really, really bad, low quality crap that's hoping to cash in. And a few bits of gold mixed in.
| QUOTE |
| 1. Like many people I would like to see the artwork improved. The artwork quality has degraded in most products for years now, and newer products seem to be including fewer and fewer pictures and less standardized as well. We need Fanpro to hire someone specifically for coordination of artwork projects and art purchases to keep these necessary visual aids to reflect the correct requirements for SR artwork. I am happy to allow some "artistic license" but we need to have some standards, and especially we need solid consistency of art in a single sourcebook project. |
Three problems that I can see with this.
A) Define "good art". I loath and despise Larry MacDougal's art, for example, but otehr love it and think it's perfect. I think Jim Nelson's crisp, clean lines on the majority of his art rocked and was near perfect, otehrs found his stuff boring or just didn't like it. Art is too subjective.
B) Find a decent artist who can handle working regularly under Game Company Standards. This means relatively low pay rates. deadlines, working to specific specifications and being willing to make editorial directed changes, handling last minute rush jobs, working with a subject matter that may be somewhat unfamiliar, and accepting that you may not get paid for 6 momths or a year for your work, becauce game companies work on such shoestring budgets that sometimes they can't pay you till they've made enough off of that product to cover the costs (and that's not a dig at FanPro, that's pretty much every company in the industry).
C) Now go find 5 or 6 or 10 more artists that meet all of the above qualifications, because one artist can;t handle an entire book.
Plus, this is more of a general "Shadowrun" topic, not a 4rth ed topic.
| QUOTE |
| 2. I want the new SR4 main sourcebook to include 5-6 pages with a few short stories about how normal people in 2070 go about their daily lives. How does a troll bouncer live? What about a corporate wageslave? How does a low lifestyle guy watch trideo? What appliances does the bachlor ultra-executive have in his SOTA techno-kitchen? |
For stories and such... It's a matter of space and interest. the majority of people won;t read these, for one reason or another, and so they're generally wasted space. And the core book will likely be jam packed enough with rules and such.
Plus, have you seen Sprawl Survival Guide and Mr Johnsons Little Black Book? Pretty much handled 90% of what you just mentioned. And I'm realtively certain we'll see similar books done for 4th ed at some point (Though considering that theyt're pretty rules light, 95% of both boks are still viable to use with 4th ed, and the other 5% shouldn't be too hard to convert).
| QUOTE |
| Conjuration should be more then allies, watchers, elementals/spirits |
Not sure what you mean by this...
| QUOTE |
| 3. Make a big book for weapons/equipment in the style of Field of Fire (1 equipment/weapon per page w/artwork) for every published weapon or equipment in all sourcebooks and update them to SR4 standards. I don't care if it is 350 pages and $40. Publish it with loving quality and we WILL buy it. I would probably buy 2 (one for me and one for players). Also, might be nice if it was hardcover/closed -spiral bound so that it could lie on a table and not loose its page. |
*sigh*
I'm NOT going to go in depth into the multitude of reasons why this will never happen yet again, but will give you the final analysis.
The book would be much, much larger than 350 pages if designed like you would like. It wouldn;t sell half as well as you think it would, even at a "reasonable" price tag of $40. Hardcover/Spiral Binding adds $5-10 to the final cost of a book. And due to size, lower print run, and the enormous amount of expensive (compared to pure text, anyways) artwork you'd be looking to include, even if you reused all the old, often really low quality art from the old books, this Uber Equipment guide would cost well over $100.
Bull
OK.. I will admit I do not know the costs associated with printing. But I do know that FASA was able to publish FoF and the Street Samurai Guide for (at the time) about $15 each and about 100-150 pages each, it made sense to me that a 300-350 page product would cost about $30-$35
To me..When I talk to most players,Shadowrun is all about the tech. I know I have heard the arguments "There are only so many pistols we can list without repeating ourselves..." From my own personal experience I say that this is not the case and even with very similar or identical stats, players like have options especially with asthetics. I have a player that will not use a particular weapon just because she thinks it "looks ugly." Pictures make a huge difference. Shadowtalk also has effect on players.. I have another runner that will not use a Salavette Guardian because someone in shadowtalk says that their smartlink system is bugged.
...
Instead of one book, it could be seperated into different books by category (Pistols, Rifles, Military, etc.) Different sourcebooks for each tech.. to allow 100-150 pages for each one. Sold for $20 per book so a Shadowun fan can pick them up easier then trying to buy a big book.
Then (for people like me) have a "limited collector's edition packages" Four hardcover/spiral books (With like 6 of the sourcebooks together), 800-900 pages, and costs $199.
The nice thing about these books is that they would not need a very long development process. Just have some playtesting and equipment built using standard systems (avoid creating one weapon/tech that is massively superior -slivergun- to the other options..)
If they make it a series, then they can pay the artists a lower rate with guaranteed future work keeping them interested.
To me..When I talk to most players,Shadowrun is all about the tech. I know I have heard the arguments "There are only so many pistols we can list without repeating ourselves..." From my own personal experience I say that this is not the case and even with very similar or identical stats, players like have options especially with asthetics. I have a player that will not use a particular weapon just because she thinks it "looks ugly." Pictures make a huge difference. Shadowtalk also has effect on players.. I have another runner that will not use a Salavette Guardian because someone in shadowtalk says that their smartlink system is bugged.
...
Instead of one book, it could be seperated into different books by category (Pistols, Rifles, Military, etc.) Different sourcebooks for each tech.. to allow 100-150 pages for each one. Sold for $20 per book so a Shadowun fan can pick them up easier then trying to buy a big book.
Then (for people like me) have a "limited collector's edition packages" Four hardcover/spiral books (With like 6 of the sourcebooks together), 800-900 pages, and costs $199.
The nice thing about these books is that they would not need a very long development process. Just have some playtesting and equipment built using standard systems (avoid creating one weapon/tech that is massively superior -slivergun- to the other options..)
If they make it a series, then they can pay the artists a lower rate with guaranteed future work keeping them interested.
They completely trashed and redid WoD because the storyline for the game was finished. How do you keep the storyline going after Armaggedon? Personally, I think it was interesting that they did that...I can't think of any other games off-hand that have done that.
i hope that they base the premade vehicles and guns of the same rules that they later on presents to the public for use rather then winging it and then making rules that dont allow you a chance in hell to recreate any item in the books.
basicly make a game that have a internal logic that sticks together rather then one where everything is something that a writer went "would it be cool to have this?" about...
art is a mixed bag, what one person likes another person hates. same goes for flavor text...
basicly make a game that have a internal logic that sticks together rather then one where everything is something that a writer went "would it be cool to have this?" about...
art is a mixed bag, what one person likes another person hates. same goes for flavor text...
I want more elf pr0n.
2 words: firearms realism. For those moments when you just have to die.
| QUOTE (Cheops) |
| They completely trashed and redid WoD because the storyline for the game was finished. How do you keep the storyline going after Armaggedon? Personally, I think it was interesting that they did that...I can't think of any other games off-hand that have done that. |
Actually, if the rumors are true, (and I have some reason to believe that they might be true) they decided to create the armageddon books for the oWoD, because all the developers of the lines had been forced out of White Wolf by people who had more interest in the money coming in. (the oWoD did have a lot of money comming in) than they had in any of the individual titles that were written.
I'm more personally p*ssed off that they had contracted for work to be done for the oWoD that would be payable upon publication, kept those people slaving away at books with fast approaching due dates, collected the work in time for a soon to be released date and then not publishing the material written, but holding on to it in case "someday" they might use it. Meaning that the writers, and artists didn't get paid in full for their work. And the readers didn't get to see some of the books that were promised.
| QUOTE (Scarecrow237) |
| I'm more personally p*ssed off that they had contracted for work to be done for the oWoD that would be payable upon publication, kept those people slaving away at books with fast approaching due dates, collected the work in time for a soon to be released date and then not publishing the material written, but holding on to it in case "someday" they might use it. Meaning that the writers, and artists didn't get paid in full for their work. And the readers didn't get to see some of the books that were promised. |
That is not how the contracts for White Wolf are written. Either they were paid in full, whether the book was published or not (in which case the material belongs to WW) or they were paid a kill fee, in which case the rights revert back to the author. Unless you know specific individuals personally who were treated in the fashion you suggest, then I would submit that those rumors are false and should be summarily ignored/shot down publically. It sucks to write something and not see it published. That doesn't mean the company cheated them.
I'll also note that I have not heard a great deal of grumbling in freelance circles about this, and in fact know many freelancers who made the switch from oWoD to nWoD and are still working for White Wolf. If the circumstance you relate had come to pass, that would be highly unlikely.
| QUOTE (Scarecrow237) |
| Actually, if the rumors are true, (and I have some reason to believe that they might be true) they decided to create the armageddon books for the oWoD, because all the developers of the lines had been forced out of White Wolf by people who had more interest in the money coming in. (the oWoD did have a lot of money comming in) than they had in any of the individual titles that were written. |
Word from someone I know who follows White Wolf much more closely than I ever have is that WoD was actually supposed to end some time ago, but had gotten stretched out to keep the money flowing in.
~J
| QUOTE (Mightyflapjack) |
| OK.. I will admit I do not know the costs associated with printing. But I do know that FASA was able to publish FoF and the Street Samurai Guide for (at the time) about $15 each and about 100-150 pages each, it made sense to me that a 300-350 page product would cost about $30-$35 |
You're wrong. On a lot of levels, in a lot of ways. But, you don't want to hear that, and I'm tired of having this discussion over and over again. It doesn;t solve anything, and you will never, ever see that format again, thank all that is holy and unholy.
Bull
| QUOTE (Mightyflapjack) |
| But I do know that FASA was able to publish FoF and the Street Samurai Guide for (at the time) about $15 each and about 100-150 pages each, it made sense to me that a 300-350 page product would cost about $30-$35 |
Do keep in mind that FASA did this what, 10-15 years ago. When you factor inflation in, that would put a new publication like this at about $25-$30 in today's money. Is it worth $25-$30 for something like this? Most people wouldn't think so; I'm certainly not someone who would.
For $25-$30 I can get a oWoD book with awesome storyline, instead of a bloody equipment catologue with pictures. Pfft. Thanks much, but for $10, I'll imagine what the guns look like.
I'll tell you what I will pay for -- I'll pay for better binding, covers and printing materials so the books don't fall apart in the first year. I'm seriously considering taking my books to a specialty shop and having the bloody things rebound in decent fasion. I bought a copy of Man and Machine roughly 5 months ago, and the binding is already dying. It's aggravating.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jun 21 2005, 07:20 AM) |
| Word from someone I know who follows White Wolf much more closely than I ever have is that WoD was actually supposed to end some time ago, but had gotten stretched out to keep the money flowing in. |
If this is true, let it lay to rest that game revisions are produced merely to make a profit.
I think that art should be limited to just one or two good pictures per subject matter. Each race should have its own picture. There should be a couple of good pieces of art demonstrating the different facets of hacking, and the same with Magic.
| QUOTE (Nerbert @ Jun 22 2005, 05:51 PM) |
| If this is true, let it lay to rest that game revisions are produced merely to make a profit. |
You realize that it was just supposed to end, right? Not end and have another revision start back up?
This certainly was a case of people making profit off of things that weren't revisions, but they weren't choosing it above such revisions, they were choosing it above the prearranged end of the game world, period.
~J
And after it ended, what then? Discontinue the second most popular pen and paper game line in the industry and just, what, retire? There's always three choices for a game line. Continue building on what you've got, revise it, or end it and start something new.
yes. and if they continued building what they had because it was making money, despite plans to end it all and start something new...
then they're a smart company? And ending it and revising the game into something new was a risk motivated by more then pure profit.
yes. which disproves (based on the assumption that it was continued for profit-related reasons) your statement:
| QUOTE (Nerbert) |
| If this is true, let it lay to rest that game revisions are produced merely to make a profit. |
If game revisions are produced to merely make a profit, why would a company end a profitable game line and revise it into something totally different?
They were making money. They turned off their money making device. I'm not following you.
They were making money. They turned off their money making device. I'm not following you.
as i understand it, it's not totally different. it's basically a restart, right? the continuing saga of vampires, werewolves, mages, and other things that go bump in the night? that sounds pretty similar to me. granted, i'm not a player, so the finer details might be lost on me--but i don't hear much to distinguish it from earlier editions, ergo "totally different" really doesn't apply.
and even if it is, that doesn't explain why the whole thing wasn't ended years ago, as the rumor we're discussing says it was supposed to.
if it was supposed to end years ago (ie, before previous revisions), and it didn't end years ago because the people in charge didn't want to lose their cash cow, then the revision(s) were profit-motivated.
and even if it is, that doesn't explain why the whole thing wasn't ended years ago, as the rumor we're discussing says it was supposed to.
if it was supposed to end years ago (ie, before previous revisions), and it didn't end years ago because the people in charge didn't want to lose their cash cow, then the revision(s) were profit-motivated.
The last major revision before nWoD was in the 90s. nWoD premiered just last year.
The biggest difference between the new and the old is absolute lack of a metaplot in the new. In the old, every clan, every political faction was in extricably tied to a complex, detailed plot stretching all the way back through history. That world ended in an apocalypse. The new one has no such plot or story connected with it all, except in the form of "signature settings" in the back of each book which are never referenced anywhere else and can be completely ignored.
The second major difference is the drastic reduction in power and high specialization of each of the different supernatural creatures, for example, starting as a mortal now makes sense as opposed to being a death sentance. Also, all of the games are unified. Previously Vampire, Werewolf and Mage existed as completely seperate games and universes. They've now been consolidated into one cohesive WoD.
The feel of the games have been significantly changed in ways you would have to play in order to completely understand.
Profit was indeed the motivation for not ending the game years ago. It was ended now to make way for a new system, to bring in new players, and all that jazz.
The biggest difference between the new and the old is absolute lack of a metaplot in the new. In the old, every clan, every political faction was in extricably tied to a complex, detailed plot stretching all the way back through history. That world ended in an apocalypse. The new one has no such plot or story connected with it all, except in the form of "signature settings" in the back of each book which are never referenced anywhere else and can be completely ignored.
The second major difference is the drastic reduction in power and high specialization of each of the different supernatural creatures, for example, starting as a mortal now makes sense as opposed to being a death sentance. Also, all of the games are unified. Previously Vampire, Werewolf and Mage existed as completely seperate games and universes. They've now been consolidated into one cohesive WoD.
The feel of the games have been significantly changed in ways you would have to play in order to completely understand.
Profit was indeed the motivation for not ending the game years ago. It was ended now to make way for a new system, to bring in new players, and all that jazz.
okay. i would argue that ending it and restarting it can be viewed as purely profit-motivated, since otherwise they wouldn't have put out a new edition when they ended the old one. in other words, "we've decided to discard our original vision in favor of raking in phat sacks of cash earth-dollars, we may as well make a better game while we're at it."
it's a pointless argument anyway. i don't believe that SR4 was created purely for profit reasons (though profit certainly--and rightfully--played a role in that decision).
it's a pointless argument anyway. i don't believe that SR4 was created purely for profit reasons (though profit certainly--and rightfully--played a role in that decision).
I have to say that the nWoD is a really good revision. It introduced rules that weren't drastically different from the previous edition and in fact were very similar to the Exalted rules. Furthermore, you don't have to buy different core books to play the different settings--the main book works for Vampires, Hunters, and Werewolves very well.
That is what I would like to see from SR4--give us a core book that doesn't require a handful of other books to flesh out the various character types. I'd rather spend my money on books that advance the metaplot and that give background information.
Of course my opinions don't matter since I've removed myself from the market unless SR4 is a drastically good improvement over SR3.
That is what I would like to see from SR4--give us a core book that doesn't require a handful of other books to flesh out the various character types. I'd rather spend my money on books that advance the metaplot and that give background information.
Of course my opinions don't matter since I've removed myself from the market unless SR4 is a drastically good improvement over SR3.
I'm pretty much in agreement with Bull here. What he says actually makes sense. There seem to be a lot of unrealistic impressions of the RPG market tossed around.
I agree with him on the oWoD/nWoD changeover too. The update to the rules is solid; the mechanical integration of the Storyteller games is good. But they changed the settings drastically while still managing to seem half-assed.
D&D3E, on the other hand, whether you like it or not, is a resounding success. No other way to put it. D20 is a mixed bag, but I think everyone knew it was going to be a mixed bag. When you open something up to everyone, you get everyone: the good, the bad, and the ugly.
I agree with him on the oWoD/nWoD changeover too. The update to the rules is solid; the mechanical integration of the Storyteller games is good. But they changed the settings drastically while still managing to seem half-assed.
D&D3E, on the other hand, whether you like it or not, is a resounding success. No other way to put it. D20 is a mixed bag, but I think everyone knew it was going to be a mixed bag. When you open something up to everyone, you get everyone: the good, the bad, and the ugly.
SOrry DE and BUll but I have to disagree with the pair of you here... I can say with some certainty that the shadowrun community in West Oz, (those that choose to switch) would buy the FoF style equipment books
My evidence... the lengths those same gamers go to acquire copies of the Fof SSC and Shadowtech books
I have seen over $150 Aus ($100US) offered for FoF ... purely so the guy's players can see what their gear looks like.
My evidence... the lengths those same gamers go to acquire copies of the Fof SSC and Shadowtech books
I have seen over $150 Aus ($100US) offered for FoF ... purely so the guy's players can see what their gear looks like.
I'd have to agree - art makes the game. A rpg with little, no, or poor art is doomed to fail. I'd much rather have a few heavy pistols with pictures, than stats for 10 of them. Or pictures of 2 hold outs than stats for a half dozen.
Hell, when I was young and Playing d&d I always wondered what a ranseur was. The line of stats said it could be thrown, used as a hand weapon, set to recieve an enemies charge and on a successful roll, disarm your opponent. Cool. A swiss army weapon. But what does it look like? I hadn't a clue - till the orginal Unearthed Arcana came out with a whole section of pictures of weapons.
RPGs need art.
Hell, when I was young and Playing d&d I always wondered what a ranseur was. The line of stats said it could be thrown, used as a hand weapon, set to recieve an enemies charge and on a successful roll, disarm your opponent. Cool. A swiss army weapon. But what does it look like? I hadn't a clue - till the orginal Unearthed Arcana came out with a whole section of pictures of weapons.
RPGs need art.
| QUOTE (Mightyflapjack) |
| Seeing what White Wolf did with World of Darkness and the seemingly total domination of the D20 system, I am fearful of dramatic changes in my beloved Shadowrun RPG. |
Good god I still shed a tear when I think about what White Wolf did.
| QUOTE (Eldritch) |
| I hadn't a clue - till the orginal Unearthed Arcana came out with a whole section of pictures of weapons. |
mmm, 8 pages of polearms... One of my buddies in college decided to come up with a drink for every polearm in Unearthed Arcana. The only one that ever took off was the Lucerne Hammer.
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| SOrry DE and BUll but I have to disagree with the pair of you here... I can say with some certainty that the shadowrun community in West Oz, (those that choose to switch) would buy the FoF style equipment books My evidence... the lengths those same gamers go to acquire copies of the Fof SSC and Shadowtech books I have seen over $150 Aus ($100US) offered for FoF ... purely so the guy's players can see what their gear looks like. |
Wow. If they want anymore copies, let me know.
I had two. I sold one on eBay, and think I got $5.00 US for it. There's always a pile of them on there for dirt cheap. I think I still have another kicking around that I decided wasn;t worth trying to sell... if anyone wants to pony up $100... hell, $50 US for it, I'll gladly sell it. I'll even throw in a copy of the Street Sammy Catalogue.
And, umm... I could offer up porrf that human flesh is a vastly sought out delicacy that people are willing to kill to obtain by pointing out a couple famous cannibals. Just because someone is willing to do something insane doesn't make what they're willing to do a ppular attitude.
Bull
Bull give me an email address and we can work out bank transfer details
In our groups the hardest thing about getting a person started in SR is not the rules, its the setting. There just isn't the time to explain a dystopian futuristic '80s cyberpunk/fantasy setting properly. Sure the details of the run and its environs come across during the roleplaying otherwise who'd play, but that's not the be all and end all of the game.
As to there not being enough room in the new BBB for fluff to allow a new player to drop into the game, I think I can easily find the place. Attach a thin plastic sheaf to the inside of the back cover and put a CD in it.
As to there not being enough room in the new BBB for fluff to allow a new player to drop into the game, I think I can easily find the place. Attach a thin plastic sheaf to the inside of the back cover and put a CD in it.
From my experience and observations a very difficult thing to learn is who and when not to attack, when to flee, and how well you have to cover your tracks both physically and verbally. My background was D&D games, and little to no city-only campaigns there. So i wasn't use to regularly coming across things that were extremely deadly and meant to be left entirely alone.
You can read stuff like that, but in practice the level of parinoia required seems to usually still learned first-hand.
I found the SR3 BBB fluff to give an adequite overview of the world history. It was the feeling for the cloak and dagger of an everyday run that it didn't convey for me.
EDIT: The idea about the CD generally i like. Although they still have to author and check the content. I wonder how much extra pressing and inserting a CD at their expected run size would add to publishing costs? Anyone have an direct info or experience with this?
You can read stuff like that, but in practice the level of parinoia required seems to usually still learned first-hand.
I found the SR3 BBB fluff to give an adequite overview of the world history. It was the feeling for the cloak and dagger of an everyday run that it didn't convey for me.
EDIT: The idea about the CD generally i like. Although they still have to author and check the content. I wonder how much extra pressing and inserting a CD at their expected run size would add to publishing costs? Anyone have an direct info or experience with this?
A CD isn’t a bad idea, saves on adding a couple hundred extra pages to a core rule book. BUT you still have to take into consideration the creation of those 200 new pages. You have to pay writers to work on fluff, pay artists to draw or render weapons, armor, etc. Which thus increases the cost of an already expensive book.
You have to strike the right balance between content, rules, readability, eye candy, size, and cost. And I'm sure the Blood Mage Gestalt over at Fanpro is working hard on that. It's a very difficult job, and there is no way they'll be able to please everyone.
That being said, Shadowrun is a very high tech game, and very much of it's flavor caters to those that are comfortable with technology. So what about some kind of downloadable content. I could see a real Shadowlands type site, with weekly/monthly updates featuring new gear, graphics, sub plots, etc. They could even publish a hard copy compendium at the end of each year. Like a "year in review" counterpoint to the SOTA books.
Then you don’t have to worry about space concerns, you can produce this material at whatever pace you have the time and money for, and you can react to provide specific content to the fan base. I.E. everyone wants to know what the BMW blitzen looks like, so maybe you do a piece on "blitzkrieg", a star combat biker's custom blitzen.
You have to strike the right balance between content, rules, readability, eye candy, size, and cost. And I'm sure the Blood Mage Gestalt over at Fanpro is working hard on that. It's a very difficult job, and there is no way they'll be able to please everyone.
That being said, Shadowrun is a very high tech game, and very much of it's flavor caters to those that are comfortable with technology. So what about some kind of downloadable content. I could see a real Shadowlands type site, with weekly/monthly updates featuring new gear, graphics, sub plots, etc. They could even publish a hard copy compendium at the end of each year. Like a "year in review" counterpoint to the SOTA books.
Then you don’t have to worry about space concerns, you can produce this material at whatever pace you have the time and money for, and you can react to provide specific content to the fan base. I.E. everyone wants to know what the BMW blitzen looks like, so maybe you do a piece on "blitzkrieg", a star combat biker's custom blitzen.
They hit the big reset on WoD for one major reason: the backstory had become that convoluted nobody who was writing for them could do so. The nWoD is a massively drastic simplification, brought around by a few minor changes. Unfortunately for them, half the fanbase has walked due to this and the nWoD games sucking somewhat awfully. The new Vampire, for instance, is widely regarded by most people I know as the biggest tragedy ever written.
They won't do it to SR. They actually can't, so worry ye not.
They won't do it to SR. They actually can't, so worry ye not.
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