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Supercilious
http://world.guns.ru/assault/tavor-mtar.jpg
IMI Tavor TAR-21

http://world.guns.ru/assault/hk_g36k.jpg
HK G36

http://world.guns.ru/assault/f2000_3.jpg
FN200

http://world.guns.ru/assault/groza3.jpg
OC-14

http://world.guns.ru/assault/sar21_3.jpg
SAR-21 RIS

Firstly, all of these guns look fraggin' cool. Secondly, none of them are American in use or make (As far as I checked).

Now, naturally as a gun post I have to call upon the gunbunnies amongst us and ask; are these guns effective? If so, is their "cool" factor actually a clever design that enhances functionallity, or are the boxier American rifles "better?"

I am inclined to say that bad looking guns work better, because if the arsenal in ALIENS really was all that and a bag of chips the US army would all look like a team of elite commando's that could storm an occupied colony in the gamma sector, rather than a rather generic "camo with a gun" outfit we actually have. Of course, I could be wrong as that is just my gut talking.
Slacker
Is it just me or do none of the links actually work?

Copying and Pasting them into IE works, but not clicking on them.

Anyways, I personally don't care for the look of the Tavor TAR-21 and definitely not the OC-14. To the best of my knowledge the smoothere looks of the weapons don't have any real advantages in combat. Its just a trend in modern weaponry.

Also, note the XM-8 which has been designed and tested for future use within the U.S. military. It too has the sleaker look.

The XM-29 is another sci-fi-ish rifle designed and tested to for the U.S. military.
Austere Emancipator
Since the human sense of aesthetics has little to nothing to do with efficiency in this day and age, the looks of a firearm will as a general rule have fuck-all to do with how "good" these are functionally. That should really be all that needs to be said on this topic, but I'm too much of a freak to leave it at that.

QUOTE (Supercilious)
Now, naturally as a gun post I have to call upon the gunbunnies amongst us and ask; are these guns effective?

No doubt they are. The basic G36 is very, very similar to an M16A2, only it has a folding stock, comes with double optic sights (red dot and 3.5x telescopic), and operates with a slightly different mechanic (gas piston with gas vented out, instead of gas blown back into the receiver such as in the AR-15/M16). And it's more reliable, of course.

The TAR-21 and the SAR-21 are simple bullpup 5.56x45mm assault rifles with nothing special about them except slight refinements in design which ought to increase reliability, and coming with holo/red dot/telescopic sights as standard. They might also be easier to handle than some earlier, boxier weapon designs, but that's going to vary from user to user. They are more or less equal in principle to the Steyr AUG, the Enfield SA80/L85 and the FA-MAS.

The FN F-2000 has a fancy ejection system to counter the common problem of left-handed shooters being given a mouthful of brass by bullpup guns, and it was designed to integrate with a computerized fire control module, but otherwise it's more or less the same as the above weapons.

I don't see how the OC-14 is anything but boxy. I mean, you can clearly see how they just took the receiver of a classic AK and made it bullpup. It has the significant disadvantage of the classic clunky AK safety/selector switch being located well behind the grip, making it difficult to handle quickly.
Yoan
I find them all hideous. frown.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Slacker)
Is it just me or do none of the links actually work?

Copying and Pasting them into IE works, but not clicking on them.

World.Guns.Ru doesn't like hotlinking to images. Like you said, cut-and-paste, or just browse through their pages.

QUOTE (Slacker)
The XM-29 is another sci-fi-ish rifle designed and tested to for the U.S. military.

That project's been canceled, though. Also note how the XM-8 is much less boxy than the carbine-bit in the XM-29, even though it's pretty much the same gun with some bits tacked on.

Like you said, it's a trend in weapon manufacturing these days. I don't have first hand experience since I'm '82 vintage, but I hear they said the M16 "looked sci-fi" way back when it was introduced to replace the M14 (with its classic rifle looks, wooden stock and all).
Arethusa
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
The basic G36... operates with a slightly different mechanic (gas piston with gas vented out, instead of gas blown back into the receiver such as in the AR-15/M16).

I'd say that's a little more significant than slightly.

Also, if you think the G36C or Tavor (not that hideous Tavor2 shit) rifles are ugly, I hate you and hope you get hit with a car.

[edit]

Now that the XM-29's been mentioned, am I the only one who thinks the F2000 looks a little too bulky in the same direction? It's not nearly as heavy and it isn't as big, but it certainly looks bulkier than most rifles. And a lot of it seems to be empty space, too (eg modular foregrip plastic that can be replaced with the grenade launcher).
Austere Emancipator
It'd be significant if you knew much about how firearms operate. For the uninitiated, I expect a "significantly different operating mechanic" would be more like AK-47 vs. G11. A gas piston will not be significant for people who don't know what the heck it is. wink.gif
Arethusa
Yeah, yeah, quiet, you.
FrostyNSO
You choose the right weapon for the job depending upon the variables associated with that job. Each of those weapons has a job that is was built to fulfill.

I can't believe everybody overlooked a huge factor in relation to smoother, streamlined firearms. They don't get caught up and snag things as easily (especially if you have to carry them on a day to day basis). May sound lame, but it's a factor nonetheless.
nezumi
Now they just have to put a small tracer 'charge' on each bullet that burns bright green and makes a cool 'fwoo fwoo' sound. Then we'll be rocking!
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Nezumi)
Now they just have to put a small tracer 'charge' on each bullet that burns bright green and makes a cool 'fwoo fwoo' sound.

Unfortunately the WP countries picked green for their tracers, and bullets tend to just make a loud *CRACK* sound in flight unless they're subsonic. No rocking for us. frown.gif
gfen

They became scifi-esque when polymer replaced steel and wood.

Bullpup rifles were a flash in the pan, soon to be glossed over and forgotten. A shorter bore axis, hot brass in your face, and the increased danger for when one explodes in your face.

Smiley
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
They don't get caught up and snag things as easily (especially if you have to carry them on a day to day basis). May sound lame, but it's a factor nonetheless.

Plus, fewer edges to dig into your back on a 10-mile hump. Cuz that shit will drive you insane.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (gfen)
Bullpup rifles were a flash in the pan, soon to be glossed over and forgotten.

We'll see when Great Britain, France, Austria, Australia, Israel and Singapore get their next issue rifles.

FrostyNSO and Smiley have got good points there, I have to admit. The cocking handle and the rear sights on the RK-62 were a pain in the ass -- literally.
Smiley
M-16 A2 as well. I still have a mark where that damn thing would dig in.
ShadowDragon8685
What I want to know is...


Where is the XM-29 in Shadowrun? Or it's descendant?


I mean, that's precisely the thing I'd expect to see in the year 2060. An integrated dual-weapon system with a Smartlink.

Which, really, would make those grenades an easy choice. You just have to aim them properly in the target's general vicinity, and give them a range-burst of whatever your range to target is, or maybe a meter short. You could load with Airburst or Antivehicular (which would be just as good in anti-armored-personelle, at those sizes,) as suits your need.

And of course, when you just need to bust a cap on a small-fry, you can just fire the rifle...
FrostyNSO
Ares Alpha
ShadowDragon8685
Must be in a book I don't have...
Slacker
Ares Alpha is in the Cannon Companion.
blakkie
QUOTE (Slacker @ Jun 22 2005, 01:54 PM)
Ares Alpha is in the Cannon Companion.

It is also one of those weapons that can be more difficult to coax out of your fixer than the avail. 8/48 hrs might suggest. Or more to the point it is often a GM fiat.

With 42 round clips, SA/BF/FA, 2 points builtin recoil comp. (without using up the barrel mount), undermount grenade launcher that holds 8 minis, and factory SL-2 (bye-bye 'nade scatter) it is well worth the 8k street adjusted price.

EDIT: The Colt M22A2 avail is even more skewed even thought it lacks the SL2, plus the original printing had a typo that actually had the avail down to (4/3 days). That means an undermount grenade launcher easily bought by a new character.
Cynic project
Um I would have to say that guns started to look sci-fi with the m16 in vietnam. They are starting to look sci-fi again because they re coming out with the next genteration of weapons that look increably different than the ones before them.

And as I recall in the army they give people hard armour as standard issue in combat zones.
Foreigner
Cynic project:

Sorry, but I'm afraid you're off by between forty and sixty years.

The first truly successful semiautomatic pistol to be manufactured in quantity was the Mauser Model 1896, also known as the "C-96".

Even after nearly 80 years (at the time), the weapon was still weird-looking enough that the propmakers for STAR WARS used one as the basis for Han Solo's blaster.

Here's a link: The Mauser 1896 Broomhandle Pistol

(Incidentally, the C-96 was also the most powerful pistol in existence--velocity-wise, at least (86-grain/3-gram bullet at 1400 Feet Per Second/428 Meters Per Second) --from its introduction in 1896 until the introduction of the Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum in 1935.)

Similarly, there was a rifle made by Remington in the 1930s and '40s which was quite futuristic in appearance--the Models 8 and 8A, and their successors, the Models 81 and 81A.

Here's a link for the Model 81: Remington Model 81 Woodsmaster

EDIT: Stainless Steel Rat:

I may be wrong (he could've worked for Ford at one time), but didn't Mr. Earl work for General Motors--specifically Buick and Chevrolet?

I believe he was the driving force (please excuse the pun; it was unintentional, I assure you) behind the Chevrolet Corvette, among other vehicles.

And I think his name was "HarLey" (with an "L"), not "Harvey". smile.gif

--Foreigner
The Stainless Steel Rat
Let none of us forget one of the very basic considerations when designing ANY product: Marketing.

Between any two given products that function the same, the "cooler" looking one will usually get the sale. Or the sweet government contract.

This applies to firearms as well. You can even chalk it up to psychological advantage if you want (Our soldiers look more professional with their sleek new kill machines, and thus will strike FEAR into the hearts of our enemies!), but the simple fact is that the cooler it looks, the more likely it will sell.

To quote Harvey Earl (Ford car designer) when asked why he put fins on the back of his designs: "Listen, I'd put smokestacks right in the middle of the sons of bitches if I thought I could sell more cars."
ShadowDragon8685
Cool and intimidation are, of course, in the eyes of the beholder.


I'd be a lot more intimidated by an AK-47 than the M4 or the M16. Both look a lot more sci-fi, the M4 especially so, and the M4 is arguably one of the coolest and most sci-fi rifles in mainstream use today.


But the AK is a big rifle. It dosen't pretty itself up, it's a Soviet-designed functional killing machine, and nothing says "I will throw heavy lead into your ass" like bare metal and wood, like an AK-47.

The XM8 is a sweet, futurey-looking rifle, but it's got a relatively tiny bullet. I'd be much more intimidated by a Kalashnikov.


Of course, that could also be because I'm a product of the tail-end of the Cold War and the 90s, where all the bad guys carry AKs.



And as an aside, I always thought that the fact it was designed by a Soviet was the only thing keeping the U.S. Army from adopting the AK-M as it's rifle of choice.
Raygun
What gets me is that a lot of these "new" plastic-bodied bullpups have "AR-21" in their name somewhere, signifying, as if there were any doubt, that these rifles are indeed assault rifles designed for use in the 21st century! Wow! Too bad Steyr was 20+ years ahead of all of them.

Daewoo DAR-21, ST Kinetics SAR-21, Tavor TAR-21, Vektor CR-21... Not very creative, guys.

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
But the AK is a big rifle.

The AKM is smaller than an M16A2 and only 1.5 inches longer than an M4 (stock extended). When loaded, it weighs about the same as a loaded M16A2, though.

QUOTE
The XM8 is a sweet, futurey-looking rifle, but it's got a relatively tiny bullet. I'd be much more intimidated by a Kalashnikov.

The XM8 uses the same 5.56x45mm ammunition as the M16/M4. Though it may be the first general issue weapon to use polymer-cased ammunition, rather than traditional brass. I also would hope that the military decides to adopt a more substantial cartridge along with the XM8, like the 6.8x42mm SPC, but I don't think that's going to happen. There's an awful lot of logistical inertia to overcome.

QUOTE
And as an aside, I always thought that the fact it was designed by a Soviet was the only thing keeping the U.S. Army from adopting the AK-M as it's rifle of choice.

There was more than that, particularly the AK's relatively bad accuracy. We Americans have always been big on long range performance, whether it mattered or not. Honestly, that's about the only edge AR15-based rifles have over AK-based rifles. And when it comes to the M4 vs. AK-74M, that advantage is pretty marginal.
toturi
Speaking as an end-user of the SAR 21, it is heavier than an M-16 (but lighter than an Ultimax SAW) and more accurate (with that scope, anyone can hit) than the M-16.

But yes, the first thing that came to my mind when I first saw the SAR was that it was functionally a knockoff of the AUG.
Snow_Fox
There is a great line in Gibson's movie "We were soldiers" when the Col asks his Sgt mjr "You might want to get yourself one of those M-16's."
"Too much plastic on those things, ' like a BB gun."
Arethusa
Ironically, BB guns have bigger bores.
Raygun
No, BB's are .177", as are the pellets for most pellet guns (though you can get pellet guns up to .50 caliber). The plastic Airsoft balls are 6mm.
Arethusa
Hm. Was under the impression that airsoft and traditional BB guns used more or less the same stuff (aside from materials, obviously).
Smiley
M16 bores do look ridiculously small, though. If you look at the round separately, you'd swear it's too big to fit through.
Wounded Ronin
So what's the moral? Classic battle rifles are better, of course!


rotfl.gif rotfl.gif rotfl.gif

(Yeah, I'm joking...)
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Smiley)
M16 bores do look ridiculously small, though. If you look at the round separately, you'd swear it's too big to fit through.

You might have a very hard time trying to ram a bullet through the bore by hand, so in a way it is.

QUOTE (Cynic project)
And as I recall in the army they give people hard armour as standard issue in combat zones.

Two 10" x 12" composite plates per soldier to put inside their vests, front and back. Unfortunately it doesn't make them look any more sci-fi. The digital camo uniforms, LBVs, modded out guns, NODs, etc. do.
Critias
And the jetpacks. They help.
Snow_Fox
I'm sticking with my enfield.
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