Ok, I have a not-so-fleshed out idea rolling around in my head and was wondering how far the rules would support it.

IIRC, when a decker ends up in a UV system, they are in a whole 'nother reality basically, but instead of using their deck stats and what-not, when they want to accomplish something, they have to use their "real" skills. Am I right about this?

Now if a UV system has a medieval motif, attacking IC may be something like using your edged weapons skill to attack and damage some black knight.

What if the UV system was modeled to "support" magic?

1. Could a character (we'll just say attack an IC for an example) by rolling sorcery?

2. If so, would he have access to his own manabolt/powerbolt/whatever spell? Or a spell "provided" by the system (basically, you're attacking somebody, you use this spell)? Seeing as the deckers in these systems get to use their own "meat" skills, is it plausible that since a mage "knows" a spell he can use it?

3. Does the mage take drain afterwards? And does it go stun or physical based upon his magic rating?

4. If one mage-decker attacks another, does stun/physical get determined by what spell they use (assuming they get access to their own spells), or is it set? Does IC inflict stun or Damage by spell, or by IC type?

5. How much would a UV system cost to buy and also maintain? How much power do they draw? No, no, no, I don't want to make one for my character, I am just curious.

Ancient History, if you were a mage in a UV system operating on your raw persona could you will something similiar to magic (Ie. Your will is strong enough that you "conjure" an attack through a powerful enough persona)?

Kindof like attack utilities on the fly?

Will? No. With a strong enough will, you might be able to access your own utilities easier, but that's it.

Now, if you had an idea as to the underlying framework of the system (i.e. Computer skill) you could whip up an attack utility on-the-fly as usual.

[/edit] Frosty responded first.

Operator, I need a weapon. (Sorry).

A decker can perform any operation he wants without programs, those just make it much easier. Wouldn't that mean if a system was designed to support "magic", that they could sort of "on the fly" everything? But what skill would they use?

From what I understood, it was sortof like the astral plane, where you could use sorcery for different things (like unarmed combat) or use the unarmed skill, whichever was higher (or you wanted to use). Is it the same in a UV system, only with the Computer skill?

More or less, yes. There are certain exceptions, but in the context of an Ultra Violet system they are minimal. The important thing to remember about a UV system is that it is more difficult for the user to access the system on a familiar level. Instead, they instinctively revert to their flesh-and-blood characteristics, which are in turn limited by the constraints of the system.

There is no Neo in a UV system, subconsciously manipulating the Matrix to stop bullets and fly like Superman. An adept in a UV host could attempt a stunt their magical powers would easily accomplish in the real world and fail.

Well....... That bites.

Understand me, it's not that you can't do things impossible in the normal world in UV-you can. You just can't do it effortlessly.

A decker stuck in a UV environ could access (or make on-the-fly) an attack program that launches a fireball. But a sorceror who can cast a fireball in real life is just going to get a headache trying to cast a fireball with magic in UV.

A decker or otaku in a UV system can bend or break the rules...but it requires a conscious effort, because on many levels they believe they're interacting in the "real" world.

Imagine, as you sit at your computer, that the light bulb breaks. Now, pretend the world you're in doesn't really exist-you're not breathing air, you're not sitting at the computer-and you can fix the light bulb as easily as typing in a new line of code and hitting enter. To a decker in UV, you have to try to disbelieve the world.

There is no spoon.


So people CAN be Neo in a UV system. They just have to work at it.

No. Even the most asvanced computer system cannot apply the rules of magic. At best, a UV host environment may accomadate an analog, solely for the benefit of the users, to mimic certain effects...but it will be imperfect, always. If someone decides to play a game, they might program the system with a "magic" system that works on its own internal logic, but it cannot properly incorporate all the rules of magic in the "real" world.

As an example, a system may incorporate a rule that every time someone says "Bippity boppity boo" a line of flame would leap from their hand. A system trying to fool a mage might feed them a simsense recording of casting a spell should the mage attempt to do so...but it would not be the mage manipulating the system, but the system trying to fool the mage.

For this, are we assuming then that the designer of the system is awakened and capable of casting spells, and therefore knows how the spell effects come in to being (for his tradition at least). BEcause even so , there's two issues. 1) tradition - other than hermetics (and not even all of them these days), few casters do it the same way, so how would the system recognize the spell casting intent?
2) any way you cut it, you're still in a computer system, so you can't cast spells in it. As someone said (AH I think(, it would still be basically calling up a program that simulates the magical effect, but it could be so real they wouldn't know the difference . They could still take drain from biofeedback, in the form of some kind of IC, that they woulnd't really know to look for unless the drain was different (stronger) than normal, because they're expecting it.

Is it possible then that the system could be built by Mr. Mage/decker to respond to commands in the form of mental commands that are normally called up during spell casting, therefore giving them the ability to use spell casting to whip up programs on the fly, assuming that's what the system was designed to do?

I don't think that I would let it, becuase the computer would have to be able to recognize mental impulses that effect the 4th dimension (mana/astral) that simply isn't present within the system. But if you want to say that the mental impulses can still be picked up in the form of certain brain waves and such, then I suppose you could allow it. But this is somethign the GM would have to do , not something a player could bring up and try. Unless they want to spend years with their awakened character programming a mainframe ( and spending the resources to up keep a UV system of course, not easy).


Edit: crap, got so long winded AH said a lot of that a lot faster. Foiled again!

This I completely understand with shamanic magic, but what about hermetics?

The one I would be especially curious about would be pythagoreans (sp?). If the system could reference the character's actions against spell formlae kept in digital format, (i understand it wouldn't be real magic still), could the system create appropriate effects that could "fool" users? Say like a pythagorean that thinks he cast "influence" actually performs an action like deception or validate?

edit. To make this clear I am not talking about real magic. I'm trying to make this clear. I am just talking about a system that simulates it, like AH said "fooling" the user.

2nd edit. With this, it is conceivable that a 0 magic burnout with a sorcery background skill could "cast" spells in a UV system.

I'm not going to use this...It's just academic.

Magic is too versatile and chaotic to properly mimic. Hell, a UV environment can't even present an accurate analog of astral perception.

It may, with extensive records and a powerful system, attempt to duplicate the effects of certain spells...but in every case, the duplicated effect will be imperfect, and the magician will feel the difference, unless they've become the subject of serious psychotropic conditioning and cannot properly discern the effects of their "magical" actions, or the sensations they generate.

Even in a system with a completely seperate system of 'magical' effects, Sorcery skill is not applicable because the magician is not actually manipulating mana.
Magic Background would possibly help, but only if the system incorporated a knowbot with that knowledge skill.

Theoretically, a knowbot with spell design can produce endless spell formulae. But realistically, the knowbot faces the same problems as a normal mundane theoretician: there is no way for them to know if the spell works or not.

[/edit] You could, conceivably, have a UV system which incorporates certain laws of magic. Any user of the system - decker, otaku, burned-out mage, AI, anybody - who learned the laws of that system (essentially a skill) could then craft (another skill) spells (which would function more like program-commands than actual programs) and 'cast' them at will. It's not inconceivable a much lower-powered version of this could be used in Fantasy RPGs of the 2060's.

But again, this system would not be based on Sorcery. At a basic level, it could still be manipulated with Computer skill.

well, i think i would rule, on the following grounds, that it wouldnt work at any level that would realistically "fool" a mage, because, there is no magic on the matrix, it just isn't flat out there. Do you think, if i took you someplace without any breathable oxygen, i could fool you into thinking you're alive?

As for producing the "effects" of magic, i'd say it's already there, a host ca be sculpted any way the designer wants, so if (atleast for the ic) they want an attack util to appear as a fire ball, than so be it.

I still say yes... but only to a very limited extent. I did somwthing like this to a player in my game once. He was stuck in the arc, and being experimented on (SOOOOOOO much fun for me since he showed them the way out through the ork tunnels in his simulation) in a UV host, after they had thoroughly mind probed him and done a little reprogramming (shhhh.... he doesn't know yet heeheehee!).

They had a pretty good understanding of how his idea of magic worked enough to do a general mock up and run a simulation of him running around through the arc. He felt some weirdness when he cast spells, things didn't work quite the same, and strangely he never noticed that I never asked him to roll drain either. I never made him roll perception either, I just told him that it felt different. He never flinched (or suspected).

edit: I've got my shit mixed up.

are you talking of a meatbody immersed in water while jacked into a UV? or that the matrix representation is immersed in water?

Hmm, i donno....

I don't really know, i think I've got my shit mixed up.

lol, that happens i suppose. I would say, that in either case, he's prolly fried pretty well. In the first case, who decks while swimming? In the second case, since UV is described as "realer than real", the decker may not realize he's in a UV and think it's some other program running, and "ignore" it, and then really drown...

See this is where I am mixed up. I figured that UV systems were so far above the standard matrix system that they didn't use the proccessing protocols other systems were "limited" by, but used something entirely different. They possessed such power that they could mimic reality. Like you said, more real than real.

I never pictured it as a jump in power like a blue to green system, but rather this computer I'm on to HAL9000. (I know he's technically an AI, I'm just trying to clarify what I mean so don't take it too literally)

edit: mostly responding to Aku, not the above post... thought I'd clarify since it looked wierd when i read it

There are still limits. You can't duplicate an effect you have no understanding of, and you need an AI to program an experience no-one has ever experienced before.

Look. In a UV reality, you can be drawn and quartered, and your various bits and pieces could still move and react to your thoughts. You could feel your disparate pieces, see through your eyes, drag yourself along the ground with your tongue. That's all well and good.

Magic is something beyond that. An AI could conceivably mimic your little sorcery...if it had some prep time...but it would probably just turn you into an otaku and save itself the trouble.

hmmm...When you bring otaku up, we're opening a bigass can-o-worms. I'll have to contemplate this for a while.