I have been voraciously reading to catch up to where the plot development is in 2064. I was looking at www.shadowrunprg.com and came across a post basically saying don't call us we will call you (relating to scripts and adventures). Where do all of the plot developers drop ideas and flush things out with player bases? Is that on here or in a locked forum somewhere?
Do they care about any of the ideas we post on here, and incorporate them or are they elite overlords?
I take it that no one else offers alternate plots? I see a few of resources not sanctioned by what used to be Fasa or FanPro like the adepts' handbook and plastic warriors.
Full Version: Main Story line development
Are you talking about the freelancer guidelines or something new?
Something new could concern the development of SR4 which is supposed to wrap up several ongoing plotlines and probably start a few more when it jumps the plotline forward to 2070.
Something new could concern the development of SR4 which is supposed to wrap up several ongoing plotlines and probably start a few more when it jumps the plotline forward to 2070.
Initially my motivation is to just throw out brainstorming global scale plot ideas with others, and to get a better glimpse of where everything is leading.
In looking for a forum where the game developers hash out ideas I came across the freelancer guidelines. I was not able to find any other forums.
I was wondering if world scale plot development is a top-down process that is dictated by the developer in an isolated environment or is there a great deal of community involvement?
In looking for a forum where the game developers hash out ideas I came across the freelancer guidelines. I was not able to find any other forums.
I was wondering if world scale plot development is a top-down process that is dictated by the developer in an isolated environment or is there a great deal of community involvement?
Well...FanPro doesn't exactly hold votes in Dumpshock or any other public forum to determine the next sourcebook they should be making, if that's what you're asking.
that is pretty much what I was asking. I imagine they probably have an elite cell of players and gm they play test with and get plot feedback from.
I take it that some of the information and ideas posted here are monitored and diseminate up, and eventually are integrated into the process.
I take it that some of the information and ideas posted here are monitored and diseminate up, and eventually are integrated into the process.
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Well...FanPro doesn't exactly hold votes in Dumpshock or any other public forum to determine the next sourcebook they should be making, if that's what you're asking. |
Ya, I think the may have learned FASA's hard won lesson. The last time the plot direction was left up to a democractic player's choice they ended up with a dragon as USAC President.
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| The last time the plot direction was left up to a democractic player's choice they ended up with a dragon as USAC President. |
Don't dis the Dragon, dude! I voted for him ...
... and he even left me a little something-something in his will.
Think about this a moment.
Every human politician you have seen elected has been scum. Some scandal or another, no one kept their word. At this point, you hate everyone who even attempts to get on the ballot. You look at the ballot, and see a dragon. His promises sound like a slight alteration of the typical promises that are always broken. After looking at the pictures of 5 people you would gladly kill if yound in your kitchen and one giant lizard, your thought process is "what the hell, it's only four years."
I could see a lot of those who would otherwise be non-voters actually showing up to vote for scaley just as a protest to the kinds of people who kept getting elected. If inaction didn't work to get change, maybe odd action will.
Every human politician you have seen elected has been scum. Some scandal or another, no one kept their word. At this point, you hate everyone who even attempts to get on the ballot. You look at the ballot, and see a dragon. His promises sound like a slight alteration of the typical promises that are always broken. After looking at the pictures of 5 people you would gladly kill if yound in your kitchen and one giant lizard, your thought process is "what the hell, it's only four years."
I could see a lot of those who would otherwise be non-voters actually showing up to vote for scaley just as a protest to the kinds of people who kept getting elected. If inaction didn't work to get change, maybe odd action will.
| QUOTE (Nyxll) |
| that is pretty much what I was asking. I imagine they probably have an elite cell of players and gm they play test with and get plot feedback from. I take it that some of the information and ideas posted here are monitored and diseminate up, and eventually are integrated into the process. |
Well, I don't know about plot development, but as far as I know the writers do take rule changes into consideration based on feedback from the groups. That is nominally what playtesters are there for.
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm @ Jun 27 2005, 01:09 PM) |
| Think about this a moment. Every human politician you have seen elected has been scum. Some scandal or another, no one kept their word. At this point, you hate everyone who even attempts to get on the ballot. You look at the ballot, and see a dragon. His promises sound like a slight alteration of the typical promises that are always broken. After looking at the pictures of 5 people you would gladly kill if yound in your kitchen and one giant lizard, your thought process is "what the hell, it's only four years." I could see a lot of those who would otherwise be non-voters actually showing up to vote for scaley just as a protest to the kinds of people who kept getting elected. If inaction didn't work to get change, maybe odd action will. |
Hell, we elected Jesse "the Mind" Ventura in Minnesota. A dragon would be as palateable IMO.
And in response to the initial post:
Realistically if you are in charge of a game and want to develop it are you going to ask for the players permission?
No you are not. Don't pretend you would, either because you wouldn't. It would be a clusterf---! from the start if you did. Just look at the SR4 froum.
And it's not everyday you can elect a public official who is already a world power onto himself. He's gotta be worth at least 3 divisions and you don't have to increase the spending budget for this increase in military power...
edit: Plus, too bad there was no big meeting between D and any other world leader. He could eat most of the world leaders...
edit: Plus, too bad there was no big meeting between D and any other world leader. He could eat most of the world leaders...
| QUOTE (Jrayjoker) |
| Realistically if you are in charge of a game and want to develop it are you going to ask for the players permission? No you are not. Don't pretend you would, either because you wouldn't. It would be a clusterf---! from the start if you did. Just look at the SR4 froum. |
Actually .... I have run a mud for a few years with various players.
One of the things I did alot was get player feedback. the whole place was basically built on consensus. I added alot of stuff on my own, but I always made sure that the players were involved in giving feedback. I think I actually vetoed 2 requests in the 18 months of game development and put in serious changes which the players all endured with very little complaining since they knew they were better from it. The only complaints that I heard were people that complained to see what they could get away with. several times the game went in directions I would never have taken it. but I did what people asked and the game was way better for it. Often they would ask for the more difficult path because it took away the monotony and made sense.
So to answer your question I would have a majority rules scenario. holding a veto card in my hand.
You can hire 20 people on staff dictating ... you can have 500 money shelling die hards doing the hard work for free.
The SR forum is a mess from what I can tell appear to be caused by a lack of information.
The other part of the process was there was a continual dialog with the player base. When you ask someone to be involved, you instantly purchase loyalty.
I don't know about holding actual discussions about the direction of SR on forums, but consider that a number of freelancers frequent DS (and, presumably, other SR forums... waits for the inevitable "there ARE no other good SR forums!" response...) on a regular basis. Almost by definition, anything they write must be influenced to a greater or lesser degree by what they read here, even if only negatively ("Jesus Christ, that idea stinks! Better write something way different...").
| QUOTE (nyxll) |
| So to answer your question I would have a majority rules scenario. holding a veto card in my hand. |
But consider your userbase vs that of SR. You may've had i'd guess, 100 or so players, and i'm sure not all of those players cared so lets say you got even 80% participation. Now lets say on any given issue, on a majority rule, you had a 51/49 percent split in favor of the change, that means you'kll have somewhere around 37-39 unhappy people about the chance, no biggie, they're probably not paying tob e on your mud, so other time, they have nothing invested in it.
now imagine SR. During the designing phase, any and all SR users or perspective users may chime in or whatever. lets say theres 50,000 of us that do so ( i dont know official numbers, 50K maybe the total expected customers of SR4, but it's for easy math). now, if on any given issue, you have the same 51/49 split, you'll have somewhere around 24,000 unhappy users, because it's "what the majority wanted".
Finally, with the veto card, it's not a thing i'm a fan of, i feel it leads to a feeling of apathy, why vote when the potential is just there for the game developer to decide not to do what we want, anyways, no matter how big the margin.
IMO, i'd rather have a game maker dictate to me how their rules work, instead of saying, well this Is what you and you're fellow players SAID you wanted, and we didnt have a problem with it so we didnt veto it."
| QUOTE (Nyxll @ Jun 27 2005, 02:40 PM) | ||
Actually .... I have run a mud for a few years with various players. |
Apples, meet Oranges. Oranges, Apples.
I don't doubt that it could be done. It would be clusterf--- to do it IMO.
| QUOTE |
| now imagine SR. During the designing phase, any and all SR users or perspective users may chime in or whatever. lets say theres 50,000 of us that do so ( i dont know official numbers, 50K maybe the total expected customers of SR4, but it's for easy math). |
if you reduced your numbers down by a factor of 50, you might be more accurate. There are 6100 registered users here, and how many have been active in the last year? 1000 users that would actively participate would be my guess at a viable base.
A general rule of thumb from marketing is that if 1 person voices an option at least 10 more reflect that sentiment.
The idea is to have the communication lines open. I personally would rather hear, we tested and used a large sample, and decided to go in this direction because it was endoresed by our audience, speak up and use your voice.
If you have a group divided 50/50 on an issue you better retool your approach to satisfy a larger cross section. I think 80% satisfaction rating would be sufficient.
That way you have an active group that will virally promote your product.
The veto card is not a megalomaniac's tool of oppression, it is used to just eliminate really counter productive ideas for the collective good. (i.e. ones that will cost money instead of generate a profit) It is not used often, and is accompanied by and explanation not a cop out.
| QUOTE (Nyxll) |
| The idea is to have the communication lines open. I personally would rather hear, we tested and used a large sample, and decided to go in this direction because it was endoresed by our audience, speak up and use your voice. |
I agree with you 100% there...if, as a developer, I think you should do this. I don't, but that's just me.
| QUOTE (Jrayjoker) |
| Apples, meet Oranges. Oranges, Apples. I don't doubt that it could be done. It would be clusterf--- to do it IMO. |
Actually people are the same on many levels, and many parallel's can be drawn. Playing either game involves understanding, time and emotional investment and marketing. The main key to success is an active marketer and dialog. The downside is you can give up a bit of control.
I was part of the freedom force community and I guess I am spoiled with my expectations of a company. They listened to the gamers and have a very successful following.
If more people want to be force fed instead of being involved then my issue is moot.
But i highly doubt that everyone that plays SR3, or may play SR4 know of dumpshock.
Also, as with any gaming forum, generally, the opinions of this forum are likely much different than those of the players at large. for instance, I, for one, am in a minority around here in regards to guns: i know drek about them, how they work, or what goes with what. I could could give a rat's rear end as to whether it's "accurate" to real life, mainly, because, unlike a large number of DS'ers, i just don't KNOW the stuff.
<ball hit deep to left field....>
Hell, i don't even know why some ammo is measured in mm 9mm for example, and others are expressed, in well, i dont KNOW what it is (.400 for example maybe, i'm guessing it's a fraction of an inch, but i really have no clue). Would i LIKE to understand some of it better? sure, and i've considered going to a range, but not in the area i live in; the people around here that go to ranges are less cool war vets full of knowledge, or otherwise generally interesting,b ut sane people, but rather crazy rednecks,. who think shooting at an old chevy truck will putting down a few brewskies is a smart, intelligent, SAFE idea...
</comes back in>
the point is that if the polling was simply taken at DS, a much more "realistic" game is what you'd get, in that regards. would it be bad? maybe not, but i think it would recquire alot more words to explain different ammo sizes to dumb people, unless a given gun can only chamber one size of ammo (which i dont think is the case)
Also, as with any gaming forum, generally, the opinions of this forum are likely much different than those of the players at large. for instance, I, for one, am in a minority around here in regards to guns: i know drek about them, how they work, or what goes with what. I could could give a rat's rear end as to whether it's "accurate" to real life, mainly, because, unlike a large number of DS'ers, i just don't KNOW the stuff.
<ball hit deep to left field....>
Hell, i don't even know why some ammo is measured in mm 9mm for example, and others are expressed, in well, i dont KNOW what it is (.400 for example maybe, i'm guessing it's a fraction of an inch, but i really have no clue). Would i LIKE to understand some of it better? sure, and i've considered going to a range, but not in the area i live in; the people around here that go to ranges are less cool war vets full of knowledge, or otherwise generally interesting,b ut sane people, but rather crazy rednecks,. who think shooting at an old chevy truck will putting down a few brewskies is a smart, intelligent, SAFE idea...
</comes back in>
the point is that if the polling was simply taken at DS, a much more "realistic" game is what you'd get, in that regards. would it be bad? maybe not, but i think it would recquire alot more words to explain different ammo sizes to dumb people, unless a given gun can only chamber one size of ammo (which i dont think is the case)
| QUOTE (Aku) |
| But i highly doubt that everyone that plays SR3, or may play SR4 know of dumpshock. |
then there needs to be some kind of official forum or way for people to find out. Some email newletters with updates, snippets, would not hurt either. If people feel they are going to get extras for free, they will also invest more. (human behaviour is strange) I would have expected to see a visit us online link. how many gamers out there use the internet? I would think close to 99%.
well, there is, it's www.shadowrunrpg.com, and while they could do a poll there, theres still a large number of logisitical issues with that. Just because someone uses the internet, doesnt mean that they frequent, or even visit gaming forums, no matter how much they like them. another issue is timing, how long do you leave any given poll up? a few days? a week? consider the number of rules in any given tabletop game, the time bloat required for something like that, even for most rules, would be enourmous. for some major, game changing rules, i could see maybe it being a good idea ("Hey, what do you guys think of us changing to a d56?")
Also, you didn't mention what sort of mud you ran, if it was a homebrew system, or based on something already. If it was homebrew, did you vote on that? if it was a system, did you vote on which,. or just say, i wanna make an SR mud, and do it. If so, than you HAD to include atleast all the core (BBB) rules.
Also, you didn't mention what sort of mud you ran, if it was a homebrew system, or based on something already. If it was homebrew, did you vote on that? if it was a system, did you vote on which,. or just say, i wanna make an SR mud, and do it. If so, than you HAD to include atleast all the core (BBB) rules.
I suspect the number is far, far lower. It's easier to think "everyone is on the internet!" when you're always on the internet.
Also, "gamers on the internet" and "gamers that are on the internet and care enough to read forums and company websites" are two very different things.
If you want to get involved, do it: submit proposals, open a dialog with the developer, learn about the upcoming books, and contribute. There are increasing venues for working on Shadowrun, as FanPro is going to be publishing more web fiction and more original web content, and the SR4 release schedule is also ... ambitious.
Also, "gamers on the internet" and "gamers that are on the internet and care enough to read forums and company websites" are two very different things.
If you want to get involved, do it: submit proposals, open a dialog with the developer, learn about the upcoming books, and contribute. There are increasing venues for working on Shadowrun, as FanPro is going to be publishing more web fiction and more original web content, and the SR4 release schedule is also ... ambitious.
| QUOTE |
| If you want to get involved, do it: submit proposals, open a dialog with the developer, learn about the upcoming books, and contribute. There are increasing venues for working on Shadowrun, as FanPro is going to be publishing more web fiction and more original web content, and the SR4 release schedule is also ... ambitious. |
This is what I am trying to do. Hence why I am asking "where the do the developers hang out and discuss things?" as well as the processes they use to develop new material. I am trying to make sense of posts that run bunny trails and wind all over the place. As for proposals, I would like to know where things have moved to over the 8 years that I have been away, as well as talking to a friend of mine that was involved with doing some leg work for a sourcebook a little while ago.
So I am trying to organise thoughts, gain an understanding, and find out what avenue I have to follow to get things rolling.
| QUOTE (Nyxll @ Jun 28 2005, 01:26 AM) |
| This is what I am trying to do. Hence why I am asking "where the do the developers hang out and discuss things?" as well as the processes they use to develop new material. I am trying to make sense of posts that run bunny trails and wind all over the place. As for proposals, I would like to know where things have moved to over the 8 years that I have been away, as well as talking to a friend of mine that was involved with doing some leg work for a sourcebook a little while ago. |
Okay let's take this from the top.
First, game development, particularly as relates to plot development, isn't and will never be carried out in a democratic fashion. Even when fan input is asked for, the developer gets final say and direction over exactly what goes into each book. There is no way decision on future metaplots on which a commercial product hinges will be placed in the hands of the fans (mainly because said fans can barely agree on anything).
Second, FanPro in particular uses freelance writers almost exclusively. What this means is there aren't any "in-house" writers except the developer Rob Boyle himself. Everybody solicits to an outline of each project the developer provides a few months in advance, and the best (in the developer's opinion) proposals get picked up. The outline of each project normally also sets the general direction the developer wants any metaplots to be taken although the actual details and execution are left to the writer (although the developer continues to have a big say in the actual drafting process and later in editing).
Third, books are developed in restricted boards where only participant authors and a few core developers get allowed in. This is one of the really cool things that's integral to FanPro's writing/development process in which (unlike many companies where "every writer is an island") authors get to collectively brainstorm and thread their various sections together, spawn new ideas and
exchange comments and criticism. Some people may have noted that the different chapters in the most recent books have more overlap and crossreferences with other sections (ie. are better integrated), this comes from the development process chosen.
Fourth, getting into "the system": the only way I know of is by submitting a proposal, either for a section of an upcoming book (best idea since you're an unproven quantity) or for a whole book (well, it worked for Shadows of Europe and Latin America). That being said, possibly the most essential aspect of writing for SR (particularly plotting) beyond good English skills, is a thorough knowledge of where the current metaplots stand (of which there are several spread out over a half-dozen books: the Network, Ex Pacis, Rinelle, Saito, the NEEC, shedim, New Revolution, Ghostwalker's return, etc) so you may have some catching up to do.
Keep in mind that the upcoming SR4 will jump the setting to 2070. 5 years after the events of System Failure which will wrap, twist and change several major metaplots and subplots that have been running parallel over the past few years.
Notes: a lot of freelancers, myself included, hang around Dumpshock and get involved in discussions and exchange ideas. Sometimes the stuff we read or comment impacts our writing, sometimes it doesn't. This is the closest it gets to direct fan input. On the other hand, several of those freelancers happen to be Dumpshockers which have made the jump by mailing in proposals - please note that the submission guidelines are exactly that. If you intend to propose something follow the guidelines. FanPro doesn't want a fully written uber-cool draft, it wants exactly what it says in the guidelines.
Another tried-and-true way to get involved with writing for SR (well, it worked for me anyway!) is to get involved with the Shadowrun tournaments at Gen Con, Origins, and/or Gen Con SoCal. They're always looking for good GMs, and you could get the chance to help out writing the tournament itself. Get your name out there, get yourself known to the tournament folks and the freelancers. Introduce yourself to Rob. Present yourself as a professional, not a raving fanboy/girl whose fondest dream is to write the next great Shadowrun adventure (even if you are and it is.)
To add to what Synner said, yeah, good English skills and metaplot knowledge are very important to freelancing, but let's not forget the third part of that triangle: professionalism. That doesn't mean you have to be a pro writer. What it does mean is that you have to be able to deliver what you promise, on time. SR products are on a tight schedule, so you have to be able to meet deadlines. Occasional emergencies are tolerated and understood, but a consistent pattern of being able to deliver quality work to deadlines is an invaluable skill for doing this.
To add to what Synner said, yeah, good English skills and metaplot knowledge are very important to freelancing, but let's not forget the third part of that triangle: professionalism. That doesn't mean you have to be a pro writer. What it does mean is that you have to be able to deliver what you promise, on time. SR products are on a tight schedule, so you have to be able to meet deadlines. Occasional emergencies are tolerated and understood, but a consistent pattern of being able to deliver quality work to deadlines is an invaluable skill for doing this.
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