Before anyone asked, yes I've done a search...but if I've missed something because my search-fu is weak, point me at 'em.

A couple questions got raised in the group regarding drones.

A) The Medusa has mixed armor (4 points normal, 4 points ablative). How is this resolved in melee and ranged combat? The ablative rules are a little confusing...and which armor would be resolved first? The ablative (which isn't hardened, but is on the outside) or the normal (which is hardened and on the inside)? I found the previous thread where this was brought up, but it was never really answered.

B) It says in Brainscan that all physical spells except elemental manipulations have a target number of OR+Body (in the case of Medusas, it's 10+3=13). The group did NOT like the fact that you had to roll 13+ to levitate a Medusa - is this the proper ruling? It's according to the book, I think...but the rules are wierd. The relevant quote in BBB is under Vehicles and Spells, where it says the same. The argument against is the magic fingers, where in the spell description it says it's ideal for bomb disposal...but how "ideal" is that if your target number is 8-10? The argument for is that they already don't get a magic resistance...so 1 success and you have a Medusa play toy (which is exactly what happened in my campaign...3 medusas levitated, one used as a pinata by called shots to bypass armor) I have no problem with a Medusa play toy, as long as it's difficult to do it.

[BTW, if anyone is curious to read the run posts for my group, it's here at Ghosts of Dallas]

The way I would like to rule spell target numbers against objects is like this.

Combat spells have target numbers as listed in the book. (very hard to cast but I killed a lot of medusa with power balls when I was in there)

Telekinetic manipulation spells use the spells normal base target number, remember levitate has increased target number if the target is heavy and a medusa is very heavy.

Most other spells use the spells target number. OR+bod simply replaces target stat when a spell would otherwise be going against a stat.

Of cause this is not necessarily canon. You can debate long and hard wether you can lift a radio with a levitate spell and what the TN to do so is.

.the fling spell (telekinetic manipulation) at least dose not aprer to consider the OR of the object thrown and defiantly not the target you intend to harm. Of cause the chances of harming a medusa with this spell is slim to none.

Also the way physical illusions are listed in the books with fixed casting target numbers would sujest that there affecting cameras without considering there OR.

Edward

Full disclosure; I'm one of the players in Doc's game.

Our gripe with the "OR+Body" on "all physical spells" (in this case, Telekinetic Manipulations) as opposed to the Base (4) + Weight (+1/100kg) was that, taken to its extreme, means it's easier to levitate a 500kg troll than a 1 gram microchip. Also, if the tgt is "OR+Body", does that mean weight does not affect Levitate with regard to Drones and equipment (other than Body)?

The bigger issue is, do Telekinetic Manipulations fall under the same targetting rules as Elemental Manipulations? Or do they fall under Combat Spells? The rules don't explicitly say any rules on TK Manips; they do say how Combat and Elementals work. But our party felt that TK Manips should have been ruled closer to Elemental Manips than Combat Spells.

Where things get really confusing is when you cast magic fingers getting no roll better than a 6, you use the spell to pick up a baseball bat (wooden) and it works, then you try to pick up a micro chip (OR what happens to the spell.

Edward

Well, according to the SR3 book I'm reading, the TN for Levitate, for example, is just 4+floor((mass in kg)/100), but the target may resist with the better of Strength or Willpower (see sr3.197) -- ie, you roll (Sorcery+Spell Pool)(4) v. (Strength||Willpower)(Force), need one net success to levitate.

My interpretation is that telekenetic manipulations aren't "physical" in the sense that they directly affect the object. They are physical in the sense that they physically generate a force which is then applied to the object. As such, the object resists the force, not the spell.

For example, powerbolt uses mana to manifest a change _directly_ in the targetted medium. The same goes for ignite, petrify, etc.

Elemental and telekenetic manipulations create energy (or matter) which is then applied to the target. It is the created energy that the target resists, NOT the spell.

Keep in mind that the way you're interpreting it right now would require the armor and physical barrier spells to overcome the object resistace of a bullet to take effect. It makes no sense.

In short, any spell that directly effects change within a medium must overcome object resistance; any spell that creates energy or matter which is subsequently applied to an object does not. That is the way I handle it.

I too am in Doc's campaign, so take this for what it's worth. However, I have GMed Shadowrun as well, so I always try to make rules clarifications with that in mind as well, not just what benefits my character.

Elemental, Telekinitic and Transformation Manipulation spells pretty much all follow the same targeting rules: You roll versus a *set* target number (usually 4 or 6) to determine the successes. Then anything that resists does so independently. This lends credence to the theory that they all work in a similar fashion (creating a force that is then resisted seperately as opposed to trying to affect the target directly). Combat spells, however, are immediately resisted by the target - successes are based upon the target's attribute (Willpower or Body, depending on the spell).

Here is how I view Levitate to work. You create a force that you use to lift an object. This force does not even attempt to enter or penetrate the target in any way. It simply surrounds it and applies its force to lift it. That's it. The complexity of the target is irrelevant, because it's not trying to analyze or penetrate the object. The force is limited in power, however, so weight is a factor. I see Magic Fingers and Fling (all TK manips, actually) as working the same way.

Levitate, as per the spell description is not resisted by anything other than living beings. If I try to levitate a brick, toaster, microchip, remote control, etc. my TN is 4. There is no resistance test. The only factor is weight, which adds to the base TN. There is still no resistance test.

The only time my target can resist is if a) it's alive or b) it's physically held by something that's alive.

Thus, per the spell description, there is no resistance test for the Medusas, a car, or any other non-living object.

The confusion comes when you read the rulels in Brainscan (which I don't have a copy of to dissect).

Since most all Manipulation spells work the same way unless directly affecting a living target (mental manips come into play here), it would seem more in the spirit of the rules to treat TK Manips the same as Elemental Manips when casting on a drone or vehicle.

Getting away from the cannon rules for a second, it just makes sense that if you're trying to lift an object (be it with magic or with physical strength) that the weight of the object is what matters, not its complexity. It makes no sense at all to have a microchip be harder to lift than a fallen log or a slab of concrete.

When clarifying rules as a GM, my reasoning is always to look at the game rules first, and then use common sense to fill in any holes (sometimes overriding rules if need be). I'm a big fan of consistency. If most spells of a given category (Manipulation in this case) work the same way, then they all should unless the spell description makes an exception for them. Unclear statements from another sourcebook wouldn't be enough to sway me.

Also, as it was pointed out earlier, Manipulation spells in general do not use complexity to determine their effectiveness. You can also cast the Physical version of Invisibility and affect cameras regardless of their complexity. The TN of the spell is fixed. I don't see Levitate being any different.

Also, when Magic Fingers says it's "very handy" for disarming bombs, I really don't see how that would be an accurate statement if you used complexity to set the TN.

Yes, the Brainscan rules state that Elemental Manips follow their normal rules and use a set TN instead of complexity when affecting drones. I don't think that's an exception being made. Rather, just a reiteration of how they work and not to get carried away with using the complexity on spells you shouldn't. I see TK Manips as being far more similar to other types of Manipulation spells than they are Combat spells or anything else that would use complexity to determine the TN.

As far as Abalative armor is concerned, I'd be inclined to say the non-ablative armor rating is the portiont hat reduces the power of incoming attacks. But abalative armor would be applied first (and will degrade). But I'm not as schooled in this part of the rules, so I'll stop there and defer to others who are more knowledgeable.

Not trying to approve or disapprove of anyone's logic so far.

If we try to make a distinction between telekinetic manipulations (which you refer to a creating a force that may effect the object) and combat spells(which effect the object directly), and we say that because of that distinction telekinetic manips should just roll against base TN 4, not against OR+Bod+.5Armor (or whatever), then by the same reasoning, shouldn't it just roll against the base TN 4 vs a living target too? Because the spell just creates the force...which is what effects the target?

Just asking for consistency.

That's where the distinction between living and non-living targets come into play. The spell gives a living being a chance to influence how easy it is to move them without their consent. Note that it's not nearly as much of a chance as actually getting a resistance test, which Combat spells would.

It does roll against a base TN of 4 for living targets. Check the chart in the back of MitS, quick easy list of what TN you have for a spell.

Any book-ninjas want to comment? I already know my player's arguments and I'm curious what others do.

And I'd still like to find out what others do re: ablative/vehicle armor mixes...

That's just.....insane.

It's to give albino gnome deckers a way to avoid being tossed to the stratosphere. If the strength test were only when there is something nearby to grab, then you would have the start to some logical reasoning for the resistance rolls. Since it has no such condition on when you can use your strength to resist a levitation, the resistance tests are just to limit the spell so that it is not able to destroy any opponent with one casting success.

I didn't catch the description of the ablative adding to the armor, altho it makes sense. *wince* called shots are the way to go then...

By the way, to further muddy the waters on the levitation idea...if you can use Strength to break free of the levitation, why wouldn't the Drone, with Str 9 arms/legs be able to break free (or at least be able to ATTEMPT it). If the drone doesn't have cyberlimbs I can see it not being able to grasp anything to break the Levitation...

I can possibly see the argument against using the OR for Levitation, but not the other.

There is no argument about the TN for Levitate. It states explicitly that the base TN is 4, modified by weight in addition to normal spellcasting TN modifiers.

If you want to be a real jerk, trick the GM into defining HMHVV infected, spirits, and maybe a few other threat types as non-living. That way, you can toss the vampires and zombies more easily than the dwarf.

A better term to use would've probably been animate objects (as in, something capable of moving under it's own power), but that's not what was written. Make a simple house redefinition and allow anything with a strength or willpower attribute to resist, and you have suddenly achieved a more logically consistant spell.

Oh the joys of rule muddying.

Personally, I'd not have too much of a problem with allowing non-living beings to resist if they have limbs and could grab onto something (although, not all drones would be programmed to deal with this type of scenerio, I wouldn't think - keeping in mind that unless a Rigger's actively controlling them they'll only do what their programming tells them to do). However, I think this should be the only way to resist the spell - if you can actually grab onto something. If there isn't anything to grab, then you're out of luck (human, drone or otherwise).

If you're able to get a hold of something, then use either STR or WIL to resist (WIL being an option for living beings only, of course, since they'll have a WIL attribute and drones won't). The WIL option reflects the desire of the target to not be moved by the spell (but I'd still say you'd have to be able to grab onto something....but you're using your mental strength as a way to hold on for dear life). In a more realistic world, I'd say STR only and not WIL, but game balance does have to factor in somehwere and those of feeble body but strong mind should still have a shot at resisting.

How to determine if there's something nearby to grab on to that will withstand the power of the spell (so as to not get pulled away with you)? I'd say leave it up to the GM's discretion unless it's abused. If that isn't a good option, you could implement a Quickness (6) test or something. I just dislike adding more rolls if you don't have to.

Now, the TN is still only 4 + weight mods. Then I'd say the target could only resist ONCE at the beginning of the spell. Not every turn or some such nonsense. If they generate equal or more successes than the caster, then they're free of the spell and it would have to be cast again to grab them once more. If they generate fewer successes than the caster, they're out of luck. They can do nothing to stop the mage from making them his/her plaything.

Not that this will help my character (quite the opposite), but you could then limit the number of successes generated with the Levitate spell by the Force of the spell, since some other spells do that. This would give a STR 9 Medusa a much higher chance to resist the spell. I'm not sure if this is good idea or not, to be honest. Since the speed of movement is severely hampered by the Force, I'm inclined to think that's balancing enough, but I'd like to hear more about this aspect of the spell to see what others think.

The only other real question this leaves in my mind is if drones should get to resist this particular spell since they're really not able to resist other spells by design. I'm wondering if that's the game's way of reflecting limitations in programming *shrug*