Canon initiative rules: Everyone goes once, then everyone with 11 or more goes again then everyone with 21 or more goes again, then 31, then 41 (MBW, more or less...)

....Its great fun for the people that can go repeatedly, but the people that go once get the shaft.

My first GM's/My initative rules: Everyone rolls init. Highest goes first, then subtracts 10. It looks like this.

Fast guy: 28 - 18 - 8
Medium guy: 14 - 4
Slow guy: 6

Fast guy goes twice before medium guy and 3 times before slow; medium gets to go once before and once after slow. Slow? He waits. Slow initiative people again get screwed in a major fashion, as they have to wait a riddiculous time.

Also: Combat turns are 3 seconds. In 3 seconds, it is easy for me, a Paintball: 2 (maybe even paintball: 1. Only played once) to fire three (not two) fairly well aimed shots. I fired four shots in the timespan of 1 second at a crawling, partially covered guy and hit all four (my best friend; one of those shots was a groiner, too....Ouch.)

The point of that painful tale? If it takes Slow Guy 3 seconds to fire two shots or to throw one set of melee attacks, but Fast Guy could easily throw six shots in a second and three melee attacks. Unfortunately, the speed at which Fast Guy is going, one of my players brought up, would make his attacks go up at least one (if not two) damage codes higher due to the hyper-increased velocity. If wired reflexes make you zip around like a Dragon Ball Z character, that speed could be poured into one powerful punch which, like said anime, puts a hole in the person exactly fist-sized. Soo...Obviously, aside from the fact that your average mage's player is going to be snoozing in the back of the room while the sammies fight, Wired creates the issue of "how much can a person do, not just react to, in 3 seconds?"

I would think that a new sort of initiatve scale could be constructed. Yes, it might be similar to D&D and requires some changes to cyberware, but it should provide a fairly balanced method for init.

1: Changes to Boosted/Wired/ETC

Boosted and Synaptic Enhancer each give 1 point of reaction/level. Nothing more.
Wired/Increased (adept)/Increased (mage) gives 2/level. Wired Reflexes 3 now costs the same as a VCR 3, 300K. The Adept power now costs 4 points, not 5.
Move by Wire provides 3 points per level.
Reaction Enhancers, the most essence-friendly now, each provide 1 reaction but now cost 100K/point.
And normal 1d6 and reaction remain the same.

So your joe average Shadowrunner with 3 reaction and Wired 2 will now have 1d6+5 initiative, giving him a range of 6-11. This gives him just enough to have two actions per turn. So an initiative pass could look like this:

Cyberzombie, reaction 2: (MBW 4 = 12 points, + 1d6+2) = 15-20
Adept with Reaction 4 and Improved 3: 1d6 + 4 + 6 = 11-16

So, unless there are extrenuating circumstances, most characters will not be going more than twice a pass. Cyberzombies with high, high reaction (and there could be some) or characters with "epic" edges (If such things exist in your games, they don't yet in mine but might) or a huge, huge devotion to initiative will get to go three times, but these are entities which are -supposed- to be incredibly fast.

Now, imposing limits on what can be done in a turn will further restrict speed demons, and make Initiative less of a dominator in the game.;at least, under the system I've been introduced to (and likely in Canon as well, considering its just my system but with initiative going in order rather than everyone go, then everyone who can goes again.)

Thoughts? Suggestions? Flames? I it all!

Beats 2nd edition where if you rolled a 9 for initiative the combat may be over when the combat gods go 3 or 4 times before you even get to aim your pistol or cast a spell. I remember joining a group where they didn't explain this to me, so I put everything into other things, not initiative, and I just sat there for an hour as the sami's greased everything in sight, then when it was my initiative everything was dead or fled.

3rd ed initiative at least means EVERYONE gets to go at least once before the carnage is over.

Alternate initiative system I stole from someone. I think it was Cane.

Modesitt - Not bad, but Vampire: The Masquerade wants your friend to return its Initiative system.

Nah, I'm sure somehow their vampiric minions will know (you might even be one of them!) but never fear. While they struggle with their little disciplines, we can use our magic to mimick them easily. Oh, not to mention simply unloading a few Big D's shells at them.

I was thinking of EX shells from an Ingram Smartgun.

Vampires: Bullets don't hurt me, Nyaaaah!

Gunbunny: What about bullets that are microgrenades?

Vampire: What the - OH F--K!!!! *BOOMBOOMBOOM!!! BOOMBOOMBOOM!!!*

Sammie: Didn't that kill you? How about swords? How do you like swordsmen who can move like Neo?

Vampire: Awww crap.

Sammie: Did I mention this nifty thing called Dikote?

Vampire: !%^!*%!)%!!!! *dies. AGAIN.*

meh.

Do a search on it here and in the old forums.

There have been numerous Initiative system alternatives made that are great alterations of SR initiative systems.

There are others like yourself, and have always been, that don't think the static rules are all that hot.

So, take a look in the search.

The more I look at the V:TM system, the more I like it. Because I played (keyword: past tense) AD$D, I have a few D4's. Wired 3 would be reduced to 3d4+3, or an average bonus to initiative of 10.5 as opposed to the traditional 16.5. This means that only the most hyper-boosted shadowrunners (MBW users) can take 3 actions in the time that other people take one; most runners won't gain such a huge bonus.

One thing which I have done for my game: Reduce the "combat turn" to 1 second instead of 3. Running rates are divided by 3, and many time-based things (grenades) take a bit longer to go off in game time.

I was that 3 seconds is way too insane. I think it was meant to be a compromised between the speed of the matrix, astral space and the meat world.

I personally have moved a round to 10 seconds, but I have come up with the
following as a method of events. alternate initiative I think that chrome makes a huge difference. Mages can always anchor some spells if they need to.

LOL Critas.

John, while you're absolutely right, consider the velocity that said polearm. If you poke someone in the chest with a (example) staff, it won't hurt. If I were to whack you with one, it would sting a bit, but I'm such a skinny little kid I probably wouldn't break bones. If Bruce Lee were to coldcock me, my head would explode.

If you ask me, that's fairly strength-linked. An unmodified human can have up to six strength (technically, could have even more if he's just realllllly strong) and can use that strength to throw said polearm in a flash. Its not so much a matter of quickness - Its a matter of having the muscle power to push the pole forward at that blazing momentum, cease its momentum and pull it back to ready position in a thirtieth of a second. That's quickness derived from strength, in how he uses those muscles. It works both ways, of course (I.E. the force of the blow is derived from its quickness.)

When fencing, for example, I can make a very, very quick thrust. I can do a thrust so fast that it wrenches my entire arm (has happened.) Its blazingly quick (for my lame self) and if I caught someone at the apex of the thurst it would really hurt, but I would probably tear some muscles doing it.

But that's where physical attributes start to cross themselves up. Dexterity is dexterity, reaction time is reaction time (I'd like to see someone block that pole strike) and strength is strength, but they all work in tandem. If initiative is supposed to be reaction time divided all up into three seconds, then no big deal - But the ability for a person to actually act a bunch of times in three seconds (wether it be throwing multiple lightning-fast blows, firing guns rapidly, or delivering lightning-fast blows to opponents as they surround you) is simply derived from more than just reaction time.

You can see it coming, but if your body doesn't move in time you get hit. You might be able to move in time to avoid something, but if you don't see it coming until too late you haven't reacted to it in time. Its a linked, strange situation but its why the question, if its been visited already, popped up again.

Actually, guys, my initiative system was partially jacked from Mechwarrior 2E. That was about the only good idea the game had, and it still took a lot of work to make it playable.

Cynic - I'm sure you know by now that I'm well, well aware you can have up to a 9 (or higher, given attribute edges/flaws) but that the feasability of such a thing is virtually insane. I don't think I want to picture the human with that much muscle mass.

Of course, considering the cost of Beta and Delta, the player characters might as well not know it exists, since its that difficult to get....(And I give out a -lot- of money.)

For the OP- simpler than revising the cyberware rules is to make all intiative rolls into an open test. That is, you roll 1-5 dice, re-rolling 6's, and keep the single highest result as your roll. Then you add you reaction, and that's your intiive value. Theoretically anybody can roll as high as anybody else, but having a high reation still means a lot, and extra dice dice are also quite handy, though not as much so relatively speaking.

Actually you can use anabolic steroids to boost your STR for half price.

The TN to avoid addiction is 3, then 4. That buys you 30 weeks of use, and you need 7+8+9=24 to go from STR 6 to 9.

Pr. point its cheaper this way, than if you initiated as a physadept and purchased the STR that way. Pre-6 in STR, initiation is cheaper though.

And personally I just blew around 100 Karma in total to get my MW Adept up to 9 BOD, 9 STR. He dodged the addiction nicely too.

As he uses unarmed and bows, not to mention has a penchant for heavy armors, the investment will prove worthwhile.

Ok. Now I have time for a serious response.

In game terms, the reflexes allow extra actions per turn. That sorta makes marginal sense. But if it allows extra actions, you're kinda moving fast.

And yeah, the idea isn't perfect but I'm trying to get things goin'. But I'm real sleepy so I'm writing stupidly.

Nerfing is never the answer.
There's plenty of proof for that.

Rather than blindfolding a good dart player so that the underdog has a chance, it's generally better to just alter the rules of the dart game so that both have equal chance at winning.

The dart game here, is Initiative.

The dart game here is one played with bullets and people who are trying to kill the other player, not to play nice with him.

If you ain't got the reflexes to hack it, you deserve to get your butt shot off.

Although it's not ideal, I prefer the SR3 init to anything anybody else here has posted.

SR2 had a real problem with Street Sams kill sucking up all the fun, because the high-init character killed everything before the mage got to even act. In SR3 that doesn't happen. The speed sam with MBW 4 still only gets one action before the injured, drunk mage with an effective init of 1 gets to go, so everybody gets to make an impact. Usually in the games I've seen the mages make more of an impact with their actions, because spells are so damn effective (ignores armor, targets opponent's will, unlimited range, etc). So it balances out that the sam gets more actions.

Amateurs. Cue Mastercard voice:

Exceptional Attribute Intelligence is a waste for this character to start, it does not come into play yet. What you want is Bonus Attribute Point for Quickness and Intelligence. You still need the Exceptional Attribute Quickness to exceed the Racial Maximum.

And I wasn't being amateurish, I was trying to keep him from being a cyber zombie.

Yeah, but buying him the Edges at start make sure he's got room to grow. He's got to put all that karma somewhere, to keep his edge and stay the fastest metahuman on the planet (or die trying, after enough doses of several nasty drugs).

It's not a problem that fast characters get more actions.
It's a problem that slow characters typically have to wait until they can do something, other than the first time around.

It is far more involving to use systems that allow all players to span their actions out over the entire combat, and reward faster characters with more actions in that amount of time.

This doesn't mean that the slower characters don't do anything. It means that they do it slower.

This means that while a slow character would be doing a complex action (for example), a faster character would be doing two complex actions, or even two complex actions and a simple action.

I could go on to explain about 3 to 4 (at least) different ways of doing initiative for SR (two of which were Cain's Initiative System).

But I really don't seem to be in the mood right now to explode that much content onto the forum right now.

I'll put my favorite idea out there in the simplest and crude manner, as an example:

Fast:.........23, 13, 03
Medium:....15, 05
Slow:........08

................#1............#2............#3
Fast:.........23............13.............03
Medium:....15a..........15b...........05
Slow:........08a...........xx............08b

Order goes as follows: ("/" means "or")
#1
Fast (2 simple/1 complex)
Medium (1 simple/start complex)
Slow (1 simple/start complex)

#2
Medium (1 simple/finish-resolve complex)
Fast (2 simple/1 complex)
Slow (does not go)

#3
Slow (1 simple/finish-resolve complex)
Medium (2 simple/1 complex)
Fast (2 simple/1 complex)
==========================
First of all.

1. It's a system that is HIGHLY relative.
   
2. Whichever character has the highest Initiative is the Measuring stick by which all other character's actions are determined to spread out amongst.
   
3. There are two possible options for split up actions (a and b actions):
   1)The GM always determines how they are split up.
   2) The Player always determines how they are split up.
   
   It is up to the gamming group as to which version suits them best.
   (personally...I like option 2)
   
4. Complex actions that carry over from one pass to the next, are resolved entirely at the last half of the complex action. All rolls will be done then, and not upon the starting of the complex action.
   
5. For ease of headaches, no action is interruptible anymore than it already is by Cannon, regardless of it's continuation through other attacking character's turns.
   
   Basically, Complex actions can't be stopped in Cannon because someone else attacked the player, so there is no real need to add that complexity into this system.
   
   If you so did want to, by all means, add it in. I would best suggest an increasing TN modifier that would be added to the resolving action round for the attacked character. It just makes their task harder, and keeps the interruption concept simple.
   (But really...I wouldn't even bother with one.)
   
6. Yes. This does mean that Mage Spells can be started on round #1 and completed on round #3. (providing their initiative is single digit, and the fast player has a 21 or above)
   
7. No. This does not mean that Mage Spells can be stopped.
   
8. The only stipulation that changes from Cannon is that if the character is taking a complex action over multiple passes and is attacked in melee, they must choose to forfeit their complex action to engage in the melee, or take the damage straight on and continue their complex action.

Believe it or not.
This actually works pretty well.

Others have tried it locally, and they seem to like it's dissecting feel that makes it seem like the slow guys actually have something to do.
And, in fact, the slow guys can be found to go before others in later passes because of their "b" action carrying the higher number initiative from the "a" action.

The end result is that Fast guys are still faster, and slow guys are still slower, but slow guys have more chances to be involved throughout the bulk of the combat in exchange for a lesser rate of activity.