I did a cursory search of the forums, but I'll just come out and say it: I'm lazy. So if this has been mentioned before please ignore my ramblings and throw me a link.
So, as I have argued before, I hate the idea of a "Dodge" Test. Really this is mostly a semantic problem in my head because to me the word "dodge" implies some kind of conscious response to a known attack, which is just silly when you're talking about bullets. People just cannot dodge bullets effectively so the whole idea just doesn't sit well in my mind.
Now, I fully realize that I'm applying reason to a wholly artificial game mechanic and that one needs to suspend their disbelief in a lot of ways to make SRs combat system palatable. I also realize that presenting the target's dodge test AFTER the shooter's success test is done for continuity and easy of game play. My problem with the mechanic is that it allows meta-gaming. A player can assess what is happening to his character and adjust in real time to whatever might pose a threat to him- which in effect allows the kind of conscious bullet-dodging that pisses me off.
Blah blah blah... this has all been said before.
But my new idea is this: Have players allocate CP dice for "tactical defense" at the start of a turn in the same way a spell caster allocates Sorcery dice to spell defense. That way a player must decide in advance of the action weather he wants his character to play it safe (move using cover, etc. etc.) or go all out on the offensive.
You could even allow a character to extend his "tactical defense" to another character within a short distance (maybe 1 meter) in the same way that a spell slinger can defend others within a certain range. This would allow body guards and other close protection type characters to directly protect their charge against attacks, but in so doing they make themselves more vulnerable to subsequent attacks.
Anyway, this is just a basic idea that’s been rattling around in my skull for a few days and I wanted to see what people thought. What am I missing here that might make this mechanic broken or unbalancing? Any comments?
Full Version: Alternate Dodge Test Mechanic
I guess I should clarify a little (to be honest I haven't fully thought this through):
- CP dice allocated to tactical defense cannot be used for other stuff
- when an attack hits the character can chose to use tac-def ala dodge test
- if they roll more successes that the attacker the attack has been avoided or otherwise rendered powerless (by improvised cover or what have you...)
- dice used for this purpose are lost until the CP refreshes at the start of the next turn.
Really the only difference here is that the player must chose how many dice he will use BEFORE he knows weather or not he's going to get hit.
- CP dice allocated to tactical defense cannot be used for other stuff
- when an attack hits the character can chose to use tac-def ala dodge test
- if they roll more successes that the attacker the attack has been avoided or otherwise rendered powerless (by improvised cover or what have you...)
- dice used for this purpose are lost until the CP refreshes at the start of the next turn.
Really the only difference here is that the player must chose how many dice he will use BEFORE he knows weather or not he's going to get hit.
If you want to make it like spell defense, then I must remind you that spell defense can be allocated and de-allocated as a free action. I will also mention that you get free actions on other people's turns. The sum effect is minimally different because any competant player will assign all dice to "tactical defense" as soon as possible, and restore them to combat pool dice on a free action at the end of the turn for whoever rolled slightly better on initiative.
In short, just rename it if you can't stand the term "dodge" when talking about bullets and lasers.
In short, just rename it if you can't stand the term "dodge" when talking about bullets and lasers.
Good points all.
I was just rereading the rules for spell defense and noted that there was no rule disallowing a player to deallocate dice. I had never noticed that before. None of my players have ever caught that either. Gives me a new perspective on SD
Anyway I could also just rule that players aren't allowed to deallocate dice from tactical defense. The real idea here is to lock them into some course of action before the bullets start flying as opposed to leting them shift back and forth between offense and deffense with some kind of unrealistic omniciance about weather or not they will be shot.
I was just rereading the rules for spell defense and noted that there was no rule disallowing a player to deallocate dice. I had never noticed that before. None of my players have ever caught that either. Gives me a new perspective on SD
Anyway I could also just rule that players aren't allowed to deallocate dice from tactical defense. The real idea here is to lock them into some course of action before the bullets start flying as opposed to leting them shift back and forth between offense and deffense with some kind of unrealistic omniciance about weather or not they will be shot.
you don't have to see the bullet coming to know whether or not you will be shot at.
Its not a conscient reaction to a specific attack. Its a mechanic to allow a player, who is aware of the enemy, to move and dodge in a way that makes it harder for the opponent to target him.
Its not Matrix style bullet-time.
Its not Matrix style bullet-time.
You seen lethal weapon 4? Jet lee doesn't dodge the bullet he see's danny glovers character pointing a gun at him, and jet lee moves.
Yeah yeah yeah....
Been through all this before. I fully understand how dodge tests work and what its supposed to represent. Thats not the point of this thread.
Been through all this before. I fully understand how dodge tests work and what its supposed to represent. Thats not the point of this thread.
it does, however, make the entire reasoning behind the point of this thread null.
Actually, I like Method's idea.
Nothing is really wrong with it.
It's a basic question.
How assertive, or reserved is your character going to be this round?
Offensive vs. Defensive.
I like the idea. It makes a fully offensive character more powerful than a Defensive character, but less resiliant than the Defensive character.
It's not even that much extra clutter at all.
In my game, personally, I would use this concept and further it by stating that if they wish to engage in defensive melee, that they would have to roll their melee skill using dice from this pool.
Once they run out of dice from this pool, their defensive melee, and general dodging would lack comparably.
Which fixes my personal annoyance of people on defensive melee basically getting extra chances to attack.
Nothing is really wrong with it.
It's a basic question.
How assertive, or reserved is your character going to be this round?
Offensive vs. Defensive.
I like the idea. It makes a fully offensive character more powerful than a Defensive character, but less resiliant than the Defensive character.
It's not even that much extra clutter at all.
In my game, personally, I would use this concept and further it by stating that if they wish to engage in defensive melee, that they would have to roll their melee skill using dice from this pool.
Once they run out of dice from this pool, their defensive melee, and general dodging would lack comparably.
Which fixes my personal annoyance of people on defensive melee basically getting extra chances to attack.
Stumps- interesting addition. I'll have to do some reading on that.
lollerskates- I think you are missing the point then. I understand that the dodge test is an abstract rules mechanic designed to simulate how a person moves in combat so as not to get hit. Did you read the thread I linked to in my original post?
The point here is that the current mechanic allows a kind of meta-gaming that I don't particularly like and want to put an end to in my game. I want my players to think like thier character who is experiencing the very real danger of combat. I want them to think and move tactically. If they can say:
"sweet, my opponents don't have any more actions left so I can roll all my remaining combat pool into this next attack and I don't have to worry about dodging anymore..."
or
"...crap i just got hit i'd better get ready to roll more dice so I can't get hurt..."
that is unrealist and allows the player to disconect from the danger/stress/fear his character is experiencing. You might as well have Matrix-style bullet dodging, because the player doesn't feel the effects of being shot either way.
lollerskates- I think you are missing the point then. I understand that the dodge test is an abstract rules mechanic designed to simulate how a person moves in combat so as not to get hit. Did you read the thread I linked to in my original post?
The point here is that the current mechanic allows a kind of meta-gaming that I don't particularly like and want to put an end to in my game. I want my players to think like thier character who is experiencing the very real danger of combat. I want them to think and move tactically. If they can say:
"sweet, my opponents don't have any more actions left so I can roll all my remaining combat pool into this next attack and I don't have to worry about dodging anymore..."
or
"...crap i just got hit i'd better get ready to roll more dice so I can't get hurt..."
that is unrealist and allows the player to disconect from the danger/stress/fear his character is experiencing. You might as well have Matrix-style bullet dodging, because the player doesn't feel the effects of being shot either way.
First, I can state with absolute certainty that what players will do in 90% of situations is allocate everything to defense. The other 10% will be times when they win init and think they can resolve the thread in front of them in one pass or are in some way invulnerable(Snipers, invisibility, riggers, etc). PCs are typically better equipped and better trained than whoever or whatever they are up against, so it's just a matter of time before the opposition loses.
The method I use is I give to alleviate this is to players a choice. They can either spend combat pool as usual, or they can allocate it to shooting, soak, or dodge at the beginning of initiative. If you allocate it, you get two dice for every one you allocate.
So a char might roll init, then declare "Allocating three to dodge" and he could at any point in the turn use 6 dice for dodging.
The method I use is I give to alleviate this is to players a choice. They can either spend combat pool as usual, or they can allocate it to shooting, soak, or dodge at the beginning of initiative. If you allocate it, you get two dice for every one you allocate.
So a char might roll init, then declare "Allocating three to dodge" and he could at any point in the turn use 6 dice for dodging.
Hmmm thats another interesting mechnic. Have you ever found it to be over-powered?
Also I don't see either situation you mentioned being bad. Thats the kind of thing I want. On one hand you have cautious tactical movement as the default mode of operation, and on the other you have over whelming use of force in a kind of "violence of action". Those are both real approaches to combat used by operators in RL.
Also I don't see either situation you mentioned being bad. Thats the kind of thing I want. On one hand you have cautious tactical movement as the default mode of operation, and on the other you have over whelming use of force in a kind of "violence of action". Those are both real approaches to combat used by operators in RL.
| QUOTE (Method) |
| lollerskates- I think you are missing the point then. I understand that the dodge test is an abstract rules mechanic designed to simulate how a person moves in combat so as not to get hit. |
so why are you arguing as if it isn't? the whole point of an abstract rules mechanic is that you can interpret it any way you like. if a player allocates all his combat pool dice to attack when his opponent has no more actions left, it can be seen as the PC realizing that he moves so much faster than his quarry that he can slow down a bit and steady his aim. the player pumping up dice for a dodge test after an attack with many successes can be interpreted as the PC's decision to move faster and more immediately in response to seeing someone with a clear line of fire point a gun at him. etcetera.
| QUOTE |
| I want them to think and move tactically. If they can say: "sweet, my opponents don't have any more actions left so I can roll all my remaining combat pool into this next attack and I don't have to worry about dodging anymore..." or "...crap i just got hit i'd better get ready to roll more dice so I can't get hurt..." |
er, what you just quoted is tactical thinking, just not the type you want.
and i still have no idea what the hell matrix bullet dodging has anything to do with this.
loller...dude. He just doesn't like Dodging, in it's presentation of mechanics, as they are in SR.
There isn't anything really wrong with that, just as there isn't really anything wrong with you liking it just fine.
Many people on DSF dislike a great mutitude of rules in SR...hell, that's what 80 to 90% of the posts on the forum are all about.
Me personally, I tend to agree with not really liking the dodge for ranged combat.
Here's my personal reason.
Most people reason something along the lines of dodging bullets...
Well, that's not my reasoning.
My reasoning is really quite simple. It's much similar to my dislike of automatic melee defense (but that's another issue).
When guy #1 has an Initiative Pass of 14 and he's shooting or casting, or whatever, at guy #2 who's Initiative Pass is on 12, I see no rationality to how guy #2 can make a Perception Success and a Reaction Success (automatically, none-the-less) in the nearly miliseconds that it takes guy #1 to perform their action.
Remember...Combat is 3 seconds long.
Also, back to the issue of Initiative.
If guy #1 has a higher Initiative in SR, it means that he's faster at that moment than guy #2.
How guy #2 can suddenly move faster than or equal to guy #1 a number of Initiative Passes before guy #2 has the ability to move is an oddity to me.
See the problem that I have?
Where does the extra Reaction and Perception ability come from??
It doesn't add up in my mind.
Just like I was saying that the melee actions in defense don't add up to me either...it's for the same line of reason...where and how do they get the extra energy in time to act??
To me...they simply shouldn't.
---
In Science, there is no such thing as new energy.
There is only the displacement of energy.
If you have a given amount of things that you can do in a certain amount of time, and most active actions presented carry a certain given cost, where we end up with characters being given new energy that hasn't existed before is faulty.
To say that they displace that dodging energy from another pool makes more sense to me because now there isn't any new energy, but the same energy allocated differently.
That's how I see it.
There isn't anything really wrong with that, just as there isn't really anything wrong with you liking it just fine.
Many people on DSF dislike a great mutitude of rules in SR...hell, that's what 80 to 90% of the posts on the forum are all about.
Me personally, I tend to agree with not really liking the dodge for ranged combat.
Here's my personal reason.
Most people reason something along the lines of dodging bullets...
Well, that's not my reasoning.
My reasoning is really quite simple. It's much similar to my dislike of automatic melee defense (but that's another issue).
When guy #1 has an Initiative Pass of 14 and he's shooting or casting, or whatever, at guy #2 who's Initiative Pass is on 12, I see no rationality to how guy #2 can make a Perception Success and a Reaction Success (automatically, none-the-less) in the nearly miliseconds that it takes guy #1 to perform their action.
Remember...Combat is 3 seconds long.
Also, back to the issue of Initiative.
If guy #1 has a higher Initiative in SR, it means that he's faster at that moment than guy #2.
How guy #2 can suddenly move faster than or equal to guy #1 a number of Initiative Passes before guy #2 has the ability to move is an oddity to me.
See the problem that I have?
Where does the extra Reaction and Perception ability come from??
It doesn't add up in my mind.
Just like I was saying that the melee actions in defense don't add up to me either...it's for the same line of reason...where and how do they get the extra energy in time to act??
To me...they simply shouldn't.
---
In Science, there is no such thing as new energy.
There is only the displacement of energy.
If you have a given amount of things that you can do in a certain amount of time, and most active actions presented carry a certain given cost, where we end up with characters being given new energy that hasn't existed before is faulty.
To say that they displace that dodging energy from another pool makes more sense to me because now there isn't any new energy, but the same energy allocated differently.
That's how I see it.
| QUOTE (Stumps) |
| There isn't anything really wrong with that, just as there isn't really anything wrong with you liking it just fine. |
kindly point out to me the post that says i think there's anything wrong with him not liking the dodge mechanic?
while you're at it, it'll also be nice if you could let me know when i said i like it.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but it came acrossed that way from the constant statement of the rule set.
i was arguing against his reasoning, not his opinion. ironically, i actually agree with him on the point that combat pool is completely fucked up.
| QUOTE |
| When guy #1 has an Initiative Pass of 14 and he's shooting or casting, or whatever, at guy #2 who's Initiative Pass is on 12, I see no rationality to how guy #2 can make a Perception Success and a Reaction Success (automatically, none-the-less) in the nearly miliseconds that it takes guy #1 to perform their action. |
Well, because he doesn't! If guy 2 isn't already aware of guy one he can't dodge at all, that's called surprise. In order to dodge he has to be aware that the guy is pointing a gun at him. If he doesn't already know this from a previous free action (observe) or simple action (observe in detail) then he is suprised and gets no dodge at all. (Or dice pools to resist IIRC)
| QUOTE |
| Also, back to the issue of Initiative. If guy #1 has a higher Initiative in SR, it means that he's faster at that moment than guy #2. How guy #2 can suddenly move faster than or equal to guy #1 a number of Initiative Passes before guy #2 has the ability to move is an oddity to me. |
That's cool, because he doesn't. At the time actions are declared he's already trying to get the hell away from the gun barrel facing him, it's just the dice aren't rolled until the shot actually happens. Remember, movement takes place across the whole combat round, NOT just on the character's phase. Dodging is for all normal reasons a type of movement.
| QUOTE |
| Where does the extra Reaction and Perception ability come from?? It doesn't add up in my mind. |
It shouldn't add up because it doesn't exist.
| QUOTE |
| Just like I was saying that the melee actions in defense don't add up to me either...it's for the same line of reason...where and how do they get the extra energy in time to act?? |
Because very little movement is necessary, the attacker is bringing the fight to the defender and expending virtually all the movement to bring them together. There's a ton of threads that go into this in detail.
| QUOTE |
| In Science, there is no such thing as new energy. There is only the displacement of energy. |
Absolutely correct, but this doens't contradict anything.
| QUOTE |
| If you have a given amount of things that you can do in a certain amount of time, and most active actions presented carry a certain given cost, where we end up with characters being given new energy that hasn't existed before is faulty. |
But this isn't happening. In melee the attacker's energy is being used against him and in ranged combat, as I said earlier, there is really no new energy, as I stated above.
| QUOTE |
| To say that they displace that dodging energy from another pool makes more sense to me because now there isn't any new energy, but the same energy allocated differently. |
That's exactly the way it works in the book, the dodge happens from the pool of potention energy (actions) represented by Combat Pool.
| QUOTE (lollerskates @ Jul 9 2005, 11:58 PM) |
| i was arguing against his reasoning, not his opinion. |
But again, you miss the point.
You're arguing against what you see as my misinterpritation of the abstract dodge test.
But my reasoning is the type of meta-gaming it enables and you have said nothing to refute that reasoning.
| QUOTE |
| if a player allocates all his combat pool dice to attack when his opponent has no more actions left, it can be seen as the PC realizing that he moves so much faster than his quarry that he can slow down a bit and steady his aim... |
My mechanic doesn't change this. It still allows a character to "sense an opening" and press the attack. He just has less dice to do it with if he's spent the whole turn ducking and dodging and otherwise moving the way he should. I think this is reasonable. His first priority (as anyone's would be) is to not get hit. That may mean that when your enemy exposes himself you are not in a position to take advantage of that. That to me is realistic. If you are focused on defense you should suffer on the offense and on the milisecond time scales of SR combat a character should not be capible of the kind of thought process that allows him to change from one mode of combat to the other.
| QUOTE |
| the player pumping up dice for a dodge test after an attack with many successes can be interpreted as the PC's decision to move faster and more immediately in response to seeing someone with a clear line of fire point a gun at him... |
Again this seems to me like meta-gaming. You have to think that if you were the character with the gun pointed at you, you would not know weather this guy acts before or after you or if he has another action left in this turn with which to fire at you (the whole idea of "turns" and "actions" would, of coarse be artificial, but you get my point). If you are aware of the threat you are going to move appropriately from the start and throughout your turn, which means your ducking and dodging should affect all subsequent actions.
In theory the current mechanic allows a character to duck and dive and dodge all over creation, come to a complete stop during his actions without any movement penalties and then go back to dodging all over the place. To some small degree my proposed mechanic would penalize him because he won't have those extra dice throughout the turn, thus limiting his offensive capability.
| QUOTE |
| er, what you just quoted is tactical thinking, just not the type you want. |
Good point. But tactical meta-gaming is still meta-gaming.
| QUOTE |
| and i still have no idea what the hell matrix bullet dodging has anything to do with this. |
"Why move tactically thorougout my turn when I can just deal with each bullet as it comes along and otherwise jaunt around unimpeeded by the fact that I'M IN FREAKIN' A GUN FIGHT?"
This is Matrix-style bullet dodging mentality and in my oppinion the cannon SR dodge test creates the same in most players. Players do not very often role play the fact that thier character is being shot at and the way it would affect a real person's ability to take action. That is what I am trying to simulate.
| QUOTE |
| ironically, i actually agree with him on the point that combat pool is completely fucked up. |
As an aside, I would be quite interested to hear your interpritation of the combat pool/dodge test and what problems have led you to believe they are "totally fucked up". I'd be willing to bet we share some ideas...
| QUOTE (Method) |
| But my reasoning is the type of meta-gaming it enables and you have said nothing to refute that reasoning. |
what? i've just given you a complete explanation about how metagaming and abstract mechanics are mutually exclusive. the only reason you perceive your players to be metagaming is because you choose to interpret their actions that way.
| QUOTE |
| My mechanic doesn't change this. It still allows a character to "sense an opening" and press the attack. He just has less dice to do it with if he's spent the whole turn ducking and dodging and otherwise moving the way he should. I think this is reasonable. His first priority (as anyone's would be) is to not get hit. That may mean that when your enemy exposes himself you are not in a position to take advantage of that. That to me is realistic. If you are focused on defense you should suffer on the offense and on the milisecond time scales of SR combat a character should not be capible of the kind of thought process that allows him to change from one mode of combat to the other. |
i honestly have no idea why you decided to include this paragraph. i wasn't saying anything about your house rule at all.
| QUOTE |
| In theory the current mechanic allows a character to duck and dive and dodge all over creation, come to a complete stop during his actions without any movement penalties and then go back to dodging all over the place. To some small degree my proposed mechanic would penalize him because he won't have those extra dice throughout the turn, thus limiting his offensive capability. |
so you're saying that it is impossible for someone to slow down or speed up their movement within a three second time span? and you're arguing that that's more realistic? okay.
| QUOTE |
| Good point. But tactical meta-gaming is still meta-gaming. |
metagaming isn't just thinking in terms of the rules. by your logic, you'll be metagaming every single time you crack open a rulebook. if that's the way you want to play, you might as well just go free form.
| QUOTE |
| "Why move tactically thorougout my turn when I can just deal with each bullet as it comes along and otherwise jaunt around unimpeeded by the fact that I'M IN FREAKIN' A GUN FIGHT?" |
if your players are thinking that way, it's your fault for not throwing realistic opposition at them. combat pool is limited. it doesn't make you god. if you don't take cover, duck around, and otherwise try to make yourself as hard a target to hit as possible, you're going to get wasted.
| QUOTE |
| As an aside, I would be quite interested to hear your interpritation of the combat pool/dodge test and what problems have led you to believe they are "totally fucked up". I'd be willing to bet we share some ideas... |
maybe i'll make another thread about it, but i pretty much don't like any abstract mechanics, combat pool included.
| QUOTE |
| ...metagaming and abstract mechanics are mutually exclusive... |
When a PLAYER stops making choices based on what his CHARACTER would realistically do in a certain situation and starts making decisions based on the number of dice he has to roll or other information the PLAYER is concious of but the CHARACTER is not- that is metagaming.
I fail to see how you have demonstrated this and abstract mechanics as mutually exclusive.
| QUOTE |
| so you're saying that it is impossible for someone to slow down or speed up their movement within a three second time span? and you're arguing that that's more realistic? okay. |
Dude, seriously count out three seconds in your head and then think about the mental processes required to take the kind of action you are talking about (i.e. switching from ducking and dodging to recognizing your opponent is slower to aiming a shot, etc, etc). Let alone the PHYSICAL implications of trying to pull off an aimed shot after you just dodged out of his line of fire. Now think you are going to do this 2-3 time in a 3 second span, while moving, communicating with your team, reloading or any number of other things.
When you think realistically about it, SR combat is INSANELY FAST. Using dodge pool should reasonably cost you whole actions since your character is basically throwing themselves out of harms way (or behind impromptu cover, or prone or whatever other explaination you can think of). I don't think someone should be capible of shifiting from full offense to full defense in that time frame WITHOUT SOME PENALTY. Thats the whole reasoning behind allocating dice at the start of a turn and sticking to it. The penalty is that dice you've dedicated to one thing (defense) can't be used for some other mutually exclusive type of action (offense).
But look- its pretty clear we aren't going to see eye to eye on this one. I respect your oppinion and appreciate your feed back (to be honest it has helped me more fully conceptualize this mechanic and why it appeals to me). But I think its time we let it go...
| QUOTE (Method) |
| When a PLAYER stops making choices based on what his CHARACTER would realistically do in a certain situation and starts making decisions based on the number of dice he has to roll or other information the PLAYER is concious of but the CHARACTER is not- that is metagaming. I fail to see how you have demonstrated this and abstract mechanics as mutually exclusive. |
okay, apparently this isn't working. forget everything i've said thus far. let's try a different angle. metagaming is a character making decisions based on out of game knowledge that he wouldn't have, yes? with rules mechanics that are completely and entirely mechanical and OOC like combat pool, the character isn't involved in any sort of decision-making process at all.
yeah, you can say your character wants to move faster to make himself harder to hit or slower so he can aim more accurately, but that's already covered under the movement rules. running gives you a penalty to your attack, and remaining stationary makes you easier to hit. in addition, movement rate is predetermined at the beginning of the turn, much like your house rule. the fact that you don't even have move to use combat pool defensively is indicative of how abstract it is. you can't metagame when dealing with something like combat pool because it has no in-game component.
| QUOTE |
| Dude, seriously count out three seconds in your head and then think about the mental processes required to take the kind of action you are talking about (i.e. switching from ducking and dodging to recognizing your opponent is slower to aiming a shot, etc, etc). |
i don't know about you, but it takes me less than a second to go from a full run to a complete stop. you're going to have some serious trouble convincing me that someone who wants to start moving slower would need 3 whole seconds to make the transition.
| QUOTE |
| I don't think someone should be capible of shifiting from full offense to full defense in that time frame WITHOUT SOME PENALTY |
an increase to TN is a penalty. cutting the number of dice you can throw in half is a penalty. what you're advocating isn't a penalty - it's a restriction, and one that makes absolutely no sense if what you're trying to promote is realism. and i do hope you recognize the inherent futility in simulating reality with something you have admitted to be an abstract mechanic.
| QUOTE |
| But look- its pretty clear we aren't going to see eye to eye on this one. I respect your oppinion and appreciate your feed back (to be honest it has helped me more fully conceptualize this mechanic and why it appeals to me). But I think its time we let it go... |
i can never understand why people would attach something like this after they've just presented a long, beefy argument. seems a little hypocritical to me, but meh.
edit: jesus christ this post sucks. i really need to get some sleep.
malarky, lollerskates. combat pool allows for finer granulation of those things you mentioned. it lets you aim a bit, but not long enough to count as a Take Aim action. it lets you duck, without actually taking movement modifiers to get behind cover. it's not out-of-game, it's anti-aliasing.
if you can use it to aim, then why does it not consume an action, even a free action, when everything else you do in combat does? why does a character who is remaining stationary, or hell, even one who is completely immobile have the same range of dodge options available to him as one who is moving?
why does it run out?
in any case, i'll be surprised if you can point me to a page number that supports the interpretation of combat pool that you've outlined. while you're free to come up with your own manifestation of the mechanic in game, the fact still remains that by default, it has none.
why does it run out?
in any case, i'll be surprised if you can point me to a page number that supports the interpretation of combat pool that you've outlined. while you're free to come up with your own manifestation of the mechanic in game, the fact still remains that by default, it has none.
| QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jul 10 2005, 02:53 PM) |
| Dodging is for all normal reasons a type of movement. |
What would everybody think of a house rule that treated Combat Pool like movement?
This would mean:
- Your combat pool would be broken into pieces, and a portion (but not all of it) could be used on each of your passes. (e.g. the speed sam with quickness 10 and init roll of 31 can run 30m in a combat turn, which breaks down into 7.5 meters each of his passes. Applying this to CP: the same sam has CP of 12, and he can only use 3 CP on any given pass.)
- If not used in your pass (or before your next pass), that portion of your CP is lost. (e.g. the speed sam spends his first two passes hiding behind a car, and decides to make a run for it on his 3rd pass. He can now only travel 15m not 30, because he gave up his movement during the first 2 passes. Applying this to CP: the same sam, who didn't use his CP while hiding, now throws his CP into dodging while he runs. He can't use the 6 CP dice from his first 2 passes - it's just wasted.)
i don't think that'll work, because it'll make many attacks completely undodgeable, especially for characters with high initiative and low CP.
| QUOTE (lollerskates) |
| i don't think that'll work, because it'll make many attacks completely undodgeable, especially for characters with high initiative and low CP. |
Depending on the lethality you're looking for in your games, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Then it forces the defender to rely more on things like cover.
But I do agree that we should find a way to not penalize the fast guys more than the slow guys.
Bad idea. Combat pool is a tactical combat pool -- you should always be able to throw everything into that last desperate shot, or that single shot to make everyone else pause.
There has to be a mechanic for someone with skill 10 sitting on the roof aiming for 3.5 passes and then sending a 20 die bullet into the firefight.
Or for throwing everything into the shot to drop the mage that's now for massive spells and will exterminate your entire team if he's not dropped now
There has to be a mechanic for someone with skill 10 sitting on the roof aiming for 3.5 passes and then sending a 20 die bullet into the firefight.
Or for throwing everything into the shot to drop the mage that's now for massive spells and will exterminate your entire team if he's not dropped now
I know I might be out of place, but this is what I think about the CP and what it represents.
It's not your ability to shoot-dodge bullets, soak them, or otherwise increase your abilities. It's your instinct and natural ability to think and rationalize in a small amount of time, and have the speed to do so. Period.
You're a Shadowrunner. You're not some security guard watching over a car park or a wage slave walking back and forth from work. You're not even a corp sec or corp mage on the bleeden edge of technology and mojo. You're special. You're different. You're a Shadowrunner. And for all intents and purposes, that makes you a cut above everyone else.
Now sure, many people will argue about guards and such having CP, and I do give it to them. But they use their dice based on my tactics. I have certain guards trained that they take every avalible oppertunity to hose down someone infront of them. Full auto with the max CP they can spend. Others I plan to use to piss the PC's off by dodging everything and leading them into a trap.
Does that mean that they HAVE to do that? Heck no. Nor do the Shadowrunners. They turn a corner and see a hallway filled with assult rifles and sec-guard armor, they're going to be a bit surprised. But does that limit them from dodging out of the way? If I thought like that, every mission a runner was on would be their last.
There are just things you aren't prepared for. CP solves that. Need some dice to make it to the next init pass so you can have a chance to fire? Then you dodge. Need that extra bit of careful and quick aiming? Pump it into your weapons. And if you need just that much more fortitude to shrug off the bullet lodged in your chest, put those dice to soaking.
Think of CP more like this. Unexpected things happen to Shadowrunners. Drek, we're in one of the hottest spots in the metroplex. Drek's going to hit the fan, and hard. And sometimes, you need to squeeze out a bit more to get your hoop out of danger. CP does this. It's your ability to react to things that you didn't expect to happen. You can be ready for anything, and everything will still surprise you. A power ball from the astral plane, a bullet from a lucky shot, or even that explosion that seemed to be just a wee bit too close. You need to live.
And on the point of metagaming. It's not metagaming at all. Your people are Shadowrunners. They take every oppertunity they can get their cred-happy fingers on, end-o-file. So if they have CP at the end of their pass, and no one is left, that's the chance the runner needed to squeeze off a well-placed shot and slam some lead into that skags now empty skull. They are the heros, after all. Maybe a little moraly bankrupt heros...but heros none the less.
It's not your ability to shoot-dodge bullets, soak them, or otherwise increase your abilities. It's your instinct and natural ability to think and rationalize in a small amount of time, and have the speed to do so. Period.
You're a Shadowrunner. You're not some security guard watching over a car park or a wage slave walking back and forth from work. You're not even a corp sec or corp mage on the bleeden edge of technology and mojo. You're special. You're different. You're a Shadowrunner. And for all intents and purposes, that makes you a cut above everyone else.
Now sure, many people will argue about guards and such having CP, and I do give it to them. But they use their dice based on my tactics. I have certain guards trained that they take every avalible oppertunity to hose down someone infront of them. Full auto with the max CP they can spend. Others I plan to use to piss the PC's off by dodging everything and leading them into a trap.
Does that mean that they HAVE to do that? Heck no. Nor do the Shadowrunners. They turn a corner and see a hallway filled with assult rifles and sec-guard armor, they're going to be a bit surprised. But does that limit them from dodging out of the way? If I thought like that, every mission a runner was on would be their last.
There are just things you aren't prepared for. CP solves that. Need some dice to make it to the next init pass so you can have a chance to fire? Then you dodge. Need that extra bit of careful and quick aiming? Pump it into your weapons. And if you need just that much more fortitude to shrug off the bullet lodged in your chest, put those dice to soaking.
Think of CP more like this. Unexpected things happen to Shadowrunners. Drek, we're in one of the hottest spots in the metroplex. Drek's going to hit the fan, and hard. And sometimes, you need to squeeze out a bit more to get your hoop out of danger. CP does this. It's your ability to react to things that you didn't expect to happen. You can be ready for anything, and everything will still surprise you. A power ball from the astral plane, a bullet from a lucky shot, or even that explosion that seemed to be just a wee bit too close. You need to live.
And on the point of metagaming. It's not metagaming at all. Your people are Shadowrunners. They take every oppertunity they can get their cred-happy fingers on, end-o-file. So if they have CP at the end of their pass, and no one is left, that's the chance the runner needed to squeeze off a well-placed shot and slam some lead into that skags now empty skull. They are the heros, after all. Maybe a little moraly bankrupt heros...but heros none the less.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) | ||
Well, because he doesn't! If guy 2 isn't already aware of guy one he can't dodge at all, that's called surprise. In order to dodge he has to be aware that the guy is pointing a gun at him. If he doesn't already know this from a previous free action (observe) or simple action (observe in detail) then he is suprised and gets no dodge at all. (Or dice pools to resist IIRC) |
I have yet to see any game enforce this for every pass of every character in a general gun-fight.
The problem is that for most cases, it is commonly seen that after the "surprise" you are then aware of your opponents in an open gun fight.
Where the fault is in that is that while you might be able to catch a blurring glimpse of a barrel from one guy in 1 second, and possibly move in reaction to it, the likely-hood that you will notice 3 different barrels and move three different directions for improved safety, while not hindering yourself in the ability to fire, or act in some way isn't something that I find to make sense.
For instance, Observe is a Free Action. Really...it shouldn't be. Why? Because Perception isn't a Free action. It takes some kind of effort to Observe 5 different enemies effectively enough to move in 5 different ways defensively while still putting out an offensive.
This isn't Elektra. Unless you have that Combat Sense power, this concept doesn't make sense to my mind.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) | ||
That's cool, because he doesn't. At the time actions are declared he's already trying to get the hell away from the gun barrel facing him, it's just the dice aren't rolled until the shot actually happens. Remember, movement takes place across the whole combat round, NOT just on the character's phase. Dodging is for all normal reasons a type of movement. |
If that is indeed true, then where is the reflection in the slower character that shows that he is slower to move out of the way than another character?
For instance...
Before we had guy #1 at 14, and guy #2 at 12. Well, for right now, we'll throw in a guy #3 at 16.
How is it that when guy #3(16) shoots(or whatever) at guy #2(12), guy #2 has the same speed, ability, and time of movement in his dodge as guy #1(14) has when guy #3 shoots(or whatever) at him?
| QUOTE (BitBasher) | ||
It shouldn't add up because it doesn't exist. |
It does though. It's called "Observe" several times for free, and "move out of the way as fast as anyone else can".
If everyone is dodging throughout the entire combat, by reason of noticing barrels at the start of the combat, and we recognize the difference in speed of movement between two character's with a different level of Quickness, and Initiative than another character, how is it that we suspend such understanding to find that ALL characters dodge at the same pace, speed, and reaction?
| QUOTE (BitBasher) | ||
Because very little movement is necessary, the attacker is bringing the fight to the defender and expending virtually all the movement to bring them together. There's a ton of threads that go into this in detail. |
To save on this thread, because it's not this topic matter, and it was my bad form to bring that up in the first place...I'll just say that I don't agree, but would rather save that for another thread.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) | ||
Absolutely correct, but this doens't contradict anything. |
There is plenty that is being contradicted. I've tried to show that in better light this time.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) | ||
That's exactly the way it works in the book, the dodge happens from the pool of potention energy (actions) represented by Combat Pool. |
I didn't make myself completely clear.
I was saying that the combat pool's concept makes sense, but the dodge isn't making sense because the Combat Pool is meant to add to your ability in combat, or Augment your ability in combat... ...it's weird that it completely creates it's own skill of Dodging on it's own.
Normally CP is a booster of sorts.
But with Dodging, it isn't a booster...without CP, you haven't any dodging ability.
That is slightly odd because if you run out of CP, you don't lose the ability to defend in melee.
So why is any measure of the ability to move at any given speed in a certain amount of time, a sole CP function with only remote ties to the character's speed, but practically nothing in relation to the character's Reaction, and/or Initiative(which is the measure by which we can use to determine base character speeds in comparison to each other).
Apathy: your reasoning seems to be in line with what I'm trying to do, but I think thats a little too extreme. I still want players to have the option of using extra dice to soak damage or press an attack (i.e. other uses of the CP that make sense), but I want the number of dice to be more limited if they're also trying to dodge.
Crystalblue: thanks for the feedback. I agree that intuition and natural ability are also a part of what combat pool represents. That is a slightly different take, but equally valid given the abstration that is CP.
But once again I think we all understand what the CP is supposed to represent in game (intuition included). The idea here is I don't like the way its represented by the mechanincs.
Crystalblue: thanks for the feedback. I agree that intuition and natural ability are also a part of what combat pool represents. That is a slightly different take, but equally valid given the abstration that is CP.
But once again I think we all understand what the CP is supposed to represent in game (intuition included). The idea here is I don't like the way its represented by the mechanincs.
| QUOTE |
| And on the point of metagaming. It's not metagaming at all. Your people are Shadowrunners. They take every oppertunity they can get their cred-happy fingers on, end-o-file. So if they have CP at the end of their pass, and no one is left... |
Ummm... the fact that the character is an elite operative in a fictional universe has no bearing on weather or not a player is metagaming.
If I'm GMing a lowly wage slave who happens to keep a hold-out pistol in his desk and I shoot an elite runner because as the GM I know he is out of ammo and can't return fire- thats metagaming too. Realistically my wage slave should be scared shitless regardless and wouldn't know weather or not the runner had the means to fight back at that moment.
Or to site your example above, how does that elite runner in the midst of a gun battle know that noone is waiting to shoot him and weather or not they have the means to do so. Turns and passes do not exist to him, just openings and opportunities. If as a player I decide to throw all my dice into an attack because I (the player not the character) know that no other NPC has any actions with which to attack me- that is metagaming.
| QUOTE (Modesitt) |
| The method I use is I give to alleviate this is to players a choice. They can either spend combat pool as usual, or they can allocate it to shooting, soak, or dodge at the beginning of initiative. If you allocate it, you get two dice for every one you allocate. So a char might roll init, then declare "Allocating three to dodge" and he could at any point in the turn use 6 dice for dodging. |
I like the idea, but I don't like the idea of giving the player extra dice.
Under this concept, I would only have to sacrafice 3 CP to cash in and get 6 dodging dice.
I like the idea, but it makes the actions of a character a little too powerful.
Now, take their CP, and devide it by 2, round it down, and use that number as their CP allocation points where 1 point equals two dice and I would have less trouble with the system concept.
Personally, however, I would simply just like to see a Straight Reaction test done before the dodge is attempted, and anymore successes past the TN in the Reaction test go toward counting as a partial success (1 Die success) in the Dodge Test.
So if you need TN of 4 with 1 net success to React, and you roll 4 results of 4, producing an extra Net Success, then your extra Net Success will count as a 1 Die Success of reaching the Dodging TN.
I would also like to see Initiative have a dancing link to Dodging more than simply CP dice going out the window.
For instance, it would nearly be okay for me to claim that if a Dodge was done, that the following Simple Action of the dodging character will be Lost IF their Dodge fails to prevent damage.
In other words.
Shot fired.
Reaction Test Rolled
Dodge Test Rolled
>If damage taken, following Simple Action lost.
The concept of the lost Simple Action is recovery from an unexpected encounter(getting shot...or whatever) while in movement to dodge, and return fire(or whatever).
conundrum. on the one hand, i disagree with lollerskates' postulation that CP has no in-game component. i rp my CP usage all the time, though i admit that i'm probably pretty rare--i don't know how many people describe dodging, aiming, and other combat actions on tabletop, because i don't really play tabletop.
on the other hand, i don't see CP use as metagaming. there's no roleplaying in deciding how much CP to spend, any more than there's any roleplaying in deciding which skill to use when you pick up a pistol (i guess maybe this is what you're talking about, lollerskates?). there's roleplay possibilities in describing the results, sure, but the process involved is not clearly-delineated.
on the other hand, i don't see CP use as metagaming. there's no roleplaying in deciding how much CP to spend, any more than there's any roleplaying in deciding which skill to use when you pick up a pistol (i guess maybe this is what you're talking about, lollerskates?). there's roleplay possibilities in describing the results, sure, but the process involved is not clearly-delineated.
mfb: to clarify, it was not my intent to imply that combat pool can never have an in-game component. i merely said that it has no inherent in-game component. most people i know, including myself, have devised some way to roleplay combat pool, because to do otherwise would mean increasing the amount of disbelief that needs to be suspended while playing the game.
which brings me back to my original point: because you're free to interpret combat pool any way you desire, there can be no metagaming when you use it. there can only be faulty or inadequate interpretations.
which brings me back to my original point: because you're free to interpret combat pool any way you desire, there can be no metagaming when you use it. there can only be faulty or inadequate interpretations.
| QUOTE (Method) |
| If as a player I decide to throw all my dice into an attack because I (the player not the character) know that no other NPC has any actions with which to attack me- that is metagaming. |
that would be true only if you assume that turns and actions have no parallels in the game world that the character can act upon, which is already an erroneous assumption.
Here's what I want to know...
What is exactly wrong with CP being meta-gaming?
I mean, let's just say that it is...what's wrong with it?
It's really just like everything else in the game. A mechanic that allows a representation of a character to interact with the game-world.
The exact function of CP, or any pool for that matter, is "When things are hot, and the character's basic skills and Attributes are not enough to get him through to the next morning, he needs help. That's where dice pools come in." (-pg. 43: Dice Pools)
Basically, CP is meant as a "last ditch effort" that's good to use before you resort to burning a Karma to make it through the moment.
I don't really see anything wrong with it, especially since CP is 1/3rds based off of Willpower, and 2/3rds Combat related Attributes (Quickness, and Intelligence). That reads perfectly in backing up the "When normal isn't good enough...they tap into their extra will and gusto (dice pool)." talk that is listed on page 43.
The CP isn't really the problem. It's the amount of "free active" actions that characters are getting that contradict other SR statements and self-assumptions.
The CP fits right in with SR's concepts, and self-assumptions.
What is exactly wrong with CP being meta-gaming?
I mean, let's just say that it is...what's wrong with it?
It's really just like everything else in the game. A mechanic that allows a representation of a character to interact with the game-world.
The exact function of CP, or any pool for that matter, is "When things are hot, and the character's basic skills and Attributes are not enough to get him through to the next morning, he needs help. That's where dice pools come in." (-pg. 43: Dice Pools)
Basically, CP is meant as a "last ditch effort" that's good to use before you resort to burning a Karma to make it through the moment.
I don't really see anything wrong with it, especially since CP is 1/3rds based off of Willpower, and 2/3rds Combat related Attributes (Quickness, and Intelligence). That reads perfectly in backing up the "When normal isn't good enough...they tap into their extra will and gusto (dice pool)." talk that is listed on page 43.
The CP isn't really the problem. It's the amount of "free active" actions that characters are getting that contradict other SR statements and self-assumptions.
The CP fits right in with SR's concepts, and self-assumptions.
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