Dumpshock Forums > Unemployment in NA

Cynic project

Jul 10 2005, 06:25 PM

I see the number at least 30% in the whole of NA. This mainly from SONA and based on the UCAS and CAS numbers. Both those countries having most of the people in NA, I think that CAS is roughly the size of all other NA besides the UCAS. The UCA has roughly 50% of the people in NA.

The Sinless are “unemployable” and most countries have at least 20% sinless. So that makes Unemployment in NA at least 20%, then you have the fact that some of people would just not have jobs. I am guess we are looking at something like 6-10% in the wealthy countries. Not all the countries are wealthy in NA.

Herald of Verjigorm

Jul 10 2005, 06:44 PM

Well, if you get into trying to account for total unemployment you will have some other problems.

Do you count the employed SINless? Not just the shadowrunners and BTL dealers, but also those who for whatever reason haven't or can't get a SIN and perform some low end labor that would get a union upset if any were still around.

How do you define employment in retro-tribes amid the NAN? This is like the problem of self-employment measurements in the real world, but significantly worse because they may survive nicely and never actually have a singe nuyen or other accepted currency. This applies both to the small land farmer, the simple artisan, and the shaman in the group. You might be able to define some sort of employment based on their in-tribe sharing of resources, but the concept of employment doesn't fit and some may provide to tangible goods.

I think there are other problems with any attempt to use a measure of employment in Shadowrun, but those are the only two that came to mind reading you post.

Supercilious

Jul 10 2005, 07:07 PM

Is this is a PSA, or did you have a question? (Not sarcasm, I am just confuzzled by this post).

Cynic project

Jul 10 2005, 07:12 PM

the NAN have less people than UCAS has SINLESS. Roughly a third of th NAN is in the PCC.

Cynic project

Jul 10 2005, 07:15 PM

QUOTE (Supercilious)

Is this is a PSA, or did you have a question? (Not sarcasm, I am just confuzzled by this post).

Yea, why do people think the shadowrun world should look anything like our world?

Or rather I think it is a good point to talk about.

Shanshu Freeman

Jul 10 2005, 07:21 PM

I'm with the Herald. Sinless are no more "unemployable" in the SR world than those with no social security number or permit to work in the USA today. It's just not legal.

Talia Invierno

Jul 10 2005, 10:41 PM

I'm suddenly laughing, reading this. Any economists or social prognosticators here? I'm remembering the way Margaret Thatcher's government managed to lower unemployment rates every year of her administration ... by each year altering the criteria by which unemployment was to be defined.

FlakJacket

Jul 11 2005, 02:26 AM

Well that and the 80's boom helped a bit, even if the traditional industries finally tanked.

Cynic project

Jul 11 2005, 03:15 AM

QUOTE (Talia Invierno)

I'm suddenly laughing, reading this. Any economists or social prognosticators here? I'm remembering the way Margaret Thatcher's government managed to lower unemployment rates every year of her administration ... by each year altering the criteria by which unemployment was to be defined.

I am not talkigna bout numbers on a spread sheet.i am talking about people who do nto ahve jobs. With statistics one can do nearly anything but the facts remain if the UCAS says there are 6% unemployment when there are is 15% of the work force without jobs. In other words I am ntot alkign about the sound bit you get ont he news, but how many poeple do not have jobs.

Supercilious

Jul 11 2005, 04:25 AM

I say we kill the poor.

Little fraggers.

Talia Invierno

Jul 11 2005, 11:14 AM

QUOTE

I am not talkigna bout numbers on a spread sheet.i am talking about people who do nto ahve jobs.
- Cynic project

But there is also the question as to why they don't have jobs? For example, in a one income family, two parents + children: would you consider the parent who doesn't have a job to be unemployed? Is a person on pregnancy leave unemployed? What about the person on a disability pension? What about those "self-employed" who happen to be going through one of the major slumps (non-income or even negative income) parts of (what one always hopes is just) a normal cycle? What about those who work seasonal jobs in agriculture? What about students over the age of majority, be they part-time or full-time?

Add to this the underground economy: people working under the table, people engaged in illegal trades, SINless hired illegally (and thus not listed in the official employment records)?

Which of these people who don't have jobs would you consider "unemployed", and which wouldn't you include in your numbers?

hyzmarca

Jul 11 2005, 12:07 PM

QUOTE (Talia Invierno)

QUOTE

I am not talkigna bout numbers on a spread sheet.i am talking about people who do nto ahve jobs.
- Cynic project

But there is also the question as to why they don't have jobs? For example, in a one income family, two parents + children: would you consider the parent who doesn't have a job to be unemployed? Is a person on pregnancy leave unemployed? What about the person on a disability pension? What about those "self-employed" who happen to be going through one of the major slumps (non-income or even negative income) parts of (what one always hopes is just) a normal cycle? What about those who work seasonal jobs in agriculture? What about students over the age of majority, be they part-time or full-time?

Add to this the underground economy: people working under the table, people engaged in illegal trades, SINless hired illegally (and thus not listed in the official employment records)?

Which of these people who don't have jobs would you consider "unemployed", and which wouldn't you include in your numbers?

Logically, the UCAS would simply qualify "unemployment" s recieving state unemployment assistance. The other jobless persons would fall into a different catagory.

The thing about unemployment is that it is a rotating condition. It isn't that the same people are unemployed constantly. Some people get jobs and others are fired. Most donn't go unemployed for too long. Those that do are an unfortunante exception.

There are also valid reasons for a person not recieving an official paycheck that don't ammount to being jobless.

Who puts "Shadowrunner" on a tax return? How about "BTL dealer" "joygirl/boy" "professional legbreaker" or "go-ganger". All of these occupations provide income but none of these are officialy recognized. How about "I work as an RN at a major metropoliain hospital but they don't have me on the books because my creditials aren't valid in the UCAS." (there are hospitals that do this IRL, just not usualy major metropolitan ones.)

It is certain that many SINless have jobs, even if they aren't official jobs.
Most illegal aliens in the US have employment of some sort. It stands to reason that if illegal aliens can get jobs legit under the table then so can sinless.