In the SR3 game that I'm involved in we're just now getting ready to arm the company car. One of the PCs already has a Vindicator, so we were going to slap that in a turret and be ready to go, since we already discovered that it's unuseable by a metahuman on foot with the +30 Heavy Weapon recoil modifier.

I did the math, and the most compensation that I can put in a Mini turret is +6, and that appears to be the most that I can pack on. Sooo.....+9 target numbers, +7 after smartlink integration? That makes no sense to me.

Could someone explain to me how to hit with one of these things? Since searching fire only adds additional dice, statistics would say to stand still or someone might hit you with one of these things accidentally. Probably no one involved in your battle though.

Thank you,

Gauvain

I think there's an option that can get you more recoil compensation, but it may have bigger drawbacks too.

Anyway, on to what really works. Suppressive fire. With a vindicator's 15 bullet barrage, you can make a singe opponent need 15 dodge successes to avoid having to resist 7S + gunnery. No recoil applies at all so you don't even need the 6 points of compensation. There's also searching fire, but I don't think that one works as well.

I would assume that the best use of such a weapon would be for providing covering fire on an area (as per Shadowrun Companion rules), not for actually "hitting" anything, just as in real life machine guns aren't known for their accuracy and are mostly used for keeping the enemy's head down.

I mean, what Herald said.

That's still ineffective vs vehicles. Whereas 23D before reductions sounds like it's really something, 7S will be ignored by many thugs and most combat drones.

If you've got it in a Small turret, you can slap 9 points of recoil comp on that.

Also note that only base weapon power is used when determining if a weapon can scratch a vehicle, so anything with 4 points of vehicle armor will bounce that Vindicator whether it's firing one round or 3,000.

~J

Assuming you're talking about the Vindicator, the uncompensated recoil is indeed a +30 modifier (2 x 15 rounds recoil). Note the key word "uncompensated." With a Max-Gyro stabilization unit, Gas Vent IV system and underbarrel weight, that dips down to +6; or +4 with a smartlink. Replace the underbarrel weight with a tripod, and your smartlink takes care of the remaining recoil. Exceptional Strength (6+) may also help.

Ideally, a haeavy weapon like a minigun is set up in a protected position where it has a commanding arc of fire and is not moved. Although, you could plausibly set one up in the back of a van or other vehicle and blow the bejeesus out of anything you care to. They're also ideal for suppressive fire or destroying stationary objects or people-such as buildings, cars and mimes trapped in their invisible boxes.

pg 111 of SR3 says you double all uncompensated recoil. pp 151 and 153 both say recoil modifiers are reduced by half before recoil compensation is applied. This would say to me that, in the instance of a mounted minigun, you would reduce the recoil by 7 (15/2, round down). Reduce that by 6 from the actual recoil compensators in the turret, and you're down to 2 points of recoil, doubled to +4.

However, the phrase "This compensation cancels out the double-uncompensation recoil modifier for heavy weapons" on page 151 severely confuses the issue. That implies that you would have a minigun firing at +9 (15-6 points of RC). How do the rest of you interpret that?

Due to a peculiarity in the way the vehicle and heavy weapon recoil rules work recoial can be greatly redused.

Start with 15 recoil
Half for vehicle mounted 7 or 8
Apply gunnery recoil adjusters (max 9) 0
Double uncompensated recoil 0

This I believe is the canon interpretation

Alternatively you can use the les munchkin option and say that the vehicle mount reduction counters the heavy weapon modifier at the same time and we want 15 points of recoil compensation.

9 points of gunnery recoil unjust leaves 6 points, if you want more accuracy you will have to load tracers or incendiary rounds.

Given its 6 barreled configuration there would be a case for dividing the number of incendiary rounds buy 6 (rounded up) before determining chance of misfire although that would be a house rule it makes sense.

Edward

I interpret it as: if you are going to use a heavy weapon from a vehicle (p.151-3), you should use a turrent.

151-3 refers to firing heavy weapons while either you and/or the weapon is mounted on the vehicle (yes, this ncludes the troll with the hip-brace on a skateboard). Most of which doesn't apply here.

The way I read it is that the latter part isn't actually part of the rules, just clarification. Thus:

15 rounds, reduced to 7 recoil, reduced to 1 recoil by something with 6 points of recoil comp, doubled to 2 recoil for heavy weapons. The "cancelling" comes from the fact that if you were to not compensate all 15 rounds, you'd end up with 15 rather than 30 recoil (or 14, due to rounding issues).

~J

Sorry I was thinking it would need to go in a small turret or fixed hard point.

What cykotek said.

Edward

I'll look again, but I read that a minigun was allowed one barrel mod, and that's about the only one that makes sense.

Possibly, but what are you going to do about the other five then?

Vindicator minigun cannot accept any barrel accessories.

FWIW, yes, the vindicator minigun is an inferior weapon, as far as the game is concerned.

About the best you're going to do is mount it up, stick the recoil compensation on there, and basically, you'll end up having to just deal with the 2*(floor(15/2)-6)=+2 recoil modifier. That's really where you end up -- 15/2 rounded down is 7, minus six for the recoil compensation leaves one, double for unmodified weapons equals +2. (or +1 if you agree with hyzmarca).

If you want something like the minigun, a superior choice is the Ares HV MP-LMG; it has 3 points of built in recoil compensation, so you end up with 2*(floor(18/2)-9)=0 recoil. At 6S, it's basically just as good -- neither will penetrate any of the military grade armor, and since you round fractions down, both end up having power 3 versus vehicles (except in case of AV ammo). It's also got the ability to fire in semi-auto, burst or full-auto mode, so you have better ammo conservation options. It a superior maximum rate of fire (18) for suppressive fire. It doesn't need one combat turn to start spinning the barrels. It comes with smartlink-2.

There are only two situations I can think the minigun would be superior -- if you're using AV ammo against a vehicle, and if the target has 11 or better armor, but less than 14, then the minigun would possibly do damage and the HP-LMG would not; the other is that the minigun can fire 5 three round bursts -- which I suppose could be useful if you need to take out one hard dismounted target as it would give you five 10D bursts as opposed to three 12D, or if you think you can stomach the +6/+8 TNs on a fourth and fifth target.

Personally, I just prefer the good old heavy machine guns.

The Rigger Rules, proving over and over that sometimes something IS worse than nothing.

Anyways, topic at hand. Lets say you can only get 6 points of recoil compensation on a minigun.

First burst: 6 round burst(No recoil mod)

Second burst: The other 9 rounds at +9 recoil.

See, now wasn't that easy?

Actually HV weapons fire 6 round short bursts and have a 6 round min burst in full auto. But the HVLMG or if you where going to use fixed mounts a pare of LMGs mounted parallel (requires a medium turret or 2 firm points) provide superior firepower against any soft armored target (in the case of the twin LMGs superior against all targets).

Edward

OK, according to the cannon companion, a minigun (note: not HV weapon, minigun. This is about the minigun) seems to fire 15 rounds. Period. Something to the effect of the weapon always fire 15 rounds, and if you don't have 15 rounds use the rules for short bursts. **OK, I checked, and that's as close as i get get w/o violating the TOS for the boards.

The rules say that you double uncompensated heavy weapon recoil, yes, but with a hard point countering that doubling you still have the unmodified 15 points of recoil! All of your formulas don't take into account that the 15 is the base, not the doubled result! The schmuck with the heavy gyro mount probably flies around backward in a circle every time he pulls the trigger!

So, Troll A fires minigun. Taps firing stud, 15 rounds fly out. Mr Troll, with his +30 recoil modifier, just put large holes all over the place, and not in his target. Stand very still.

Troll A wises up and mounts minigun on his Gopher pickup truck/skateboard. Mr Troll lets rip and with his +15 recoil modifier, probably wrecks.

Elf chick B, inherits said weapon, and slaps it into a Mini Turret with the maximum 6 points of Gunnery recoil adjusters. When the gunner lets rip with the aforementioned tap, you still have a +9 and dead pedestrians and pidgeons.

I fully agree that a HV weapon is the ideal solution, but being the aforementioned Elf chick/Rigger that started as a Face, I can't roll a bloody 20 to save my life. Troll A the irritated gunner is most vexed that I can't get him a GPHMG.

So, we're trying to use the weapon that is lying around.

Note that for vehicle-mounted recoil reduction, what you do is you halve the recoil, apply all mods, then double the recoil. As a result, Elf Chick B is at +2 when she takes her shot.

~J

You can twin-link guns? - Where is the canon reference to this?

Except that SR3 p151 clearly states

You can sure mount a minigun on a plane (together with some 20/40mm Autocannon and a 105mm Howitzer) but if you want to properly hunt Elfs, the proper setup still is:

+ Get a small-medium troop-carrier Helicopter
+ Remove doors
+ Add stub wings.

- Add one minigun and a 7 or 19 shot rocket pod to each stubwing

+ Add LMG doorguns
+ Add loudspeakers
+ Play "Ride of the Valkiry" will straffing Elf villag
+ Always remember:

- You can! shoot at women/children, you just have to use less lead
- Elfs don't surf

Wouldn't a 7S minigun be better used for suppressive fire? That pretty much ignores recoil problems and you've got 15 rounds to make dodging harder for the targets.

Has anyone else made rules for twin-linked guns? I've never allowed it because I didn't have any mechanics (and I thought it would get messy fast with power escalating so quickly). I think the only time I DID allow it was effectively doubling the maximum number of rounds you could fire, but otherwise treating it like just 1 gun (the guns would have to be identical).

It's funny because there ARE canon references for twin linked guns. Read mounting weapons in the rigger section. You can either put it along the center line or two matching guns on the sides so they balance each other. But no explanation on how that actually works.

Gauvain:

This is probably a bit off-topic, but in "The Real World" (please forgive me for briefly acknowledging the existence of life outside SHADOWRUN ), the military procedure for heavy automatic weapons (meaning light, medium, and heavy machine guns, automatic cannons, and such--that is, anything larger than a submachine gun or automatic rifle), the standard procedure is to load one cartridge containing a Tracer bullet for every few cartridges loaded with standard bullets.

The normal ratio is one Tracer round for every three to five standard rounds, although that can be adjusted for the type of ammunition being used--standard ("Ball", or "B", in military parlance), Armor-Piercing (AP), Incendiary (I), or High-Explosive (HE), for example.

It's called "observing the fall of shot".

In the case of a Minigun, which usually fires between 3000 and 6000 rounds per minute (abbreviated as "RPM")--50 to 100 shots per second in SR terms--the almost-constant stream of tracers would look like a laser beam.

Strictly speaking, a Smartlink or other targeting device isn't really necessary for targeting purposes when you're using a lead hose like a Minigun--all you have to do is watch the tracers and adjust your fire accordingly.

I should point out that I have *NO* military experience--even if I volunteered, the armed forces wouldn't take me, because I have a number of preexisting medical conditions that would probably render me "4-F" ("unfit for military service") as soon as the physical and medical examinations were completed. I also have a *NASTY* temper and an instinctive (almost pathological) mistrust of authority figures.

However, at the risk of sounding immodest, I consider myself rather well-read on the subject, as weapons and military history are two of my hobbies.

Just my 0.02.

Hope this helps.

--Foreigner

Smartlinks eliminate the need for tracers, though.

~J

Doh!

I read that exact part and still posted that.

If I felt like arguing something I did not believe, I would still say they stack.

If you don’t mind the moderate chance of your gun catching fire incendiary rounds will allow a FA weapon to be fired buy an injured man in poor visibility with TN 2.

Just be aware you will take out your target but if there are more enemies than you killed then merfys laws of combat say “tracers work both ways” and the enemy may have grenades.

Edward

Yeah I don't really see much reason why tracer rounds and smartlink shouldn't stack, but the rules say otherwise. Maybe it's good old "game balance".

I think two laser sights should work together too, regardless of what the ruels say, definitely on the same target at least. Likewise with two Smartlinked weapons, but perhaps with reduced effect (e.g. only -1 on the TN for each).

Also: Yep, Incendiary rounds are good, and the secondary effects aren't that much fun for the target either - especially after a full auto.