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Dog
While Shadowrun portrays super-powerful megacorps manipulating everything that consumers think and do, isn't it funny how the sixth world has become much more fragmented than the one we live in?

I guess this is because of the fantasy element. IE's and dragons and other thinking species that are creating new societies.
Maybe the globalization of culture is what the matrix represents.
Or maybe with all the new and diverse societies, the megacorps couldn't hold together?

This is just a fledgling idea in my head, and I don't intend for it to step on any real-world political toes. But I'd like to hear your thoughts.


Jrayjoker
A big piece of the anti-globalization thing was the VITAS outbreak and UGE. It caused a lot of isolationism and fear. Two very powerful variables in the anti-global world.
Panzergeist
Cyberpunk is just not a realistic vision of the future. Corporations supplanting nation-states as the world's big powers? No way. The governments wouldn't let that happen. The only way I can see corporations taking that kind of power would be in places where nations aren't already established, like in space or ocean-floor colonies in international waters.
hermit
A company in Russia tried to pull that stunt, tried to claim power. The remainders of it are now under state control, and the company's founder and leader is now looking towards rotting in a concentration camp for the short rest of his life. Ultimately, all the money in the world will not stop the guys with guns, if they're out to get you.

In that respect, SR is unrealistic. And especially the balcanisation in Europe (GERMANY SB) stinks big time. But what the hell? Suspense of disbelief is always a part of a RPG. I mean, come on, a dragon buying a company? Please!
SL James
QUOTE (Panzergeist)
Cyberpunk is just not a realistic vision of the future.

It was at the time.
Deamon_Knight
Is that Irony James?
Edward
Corporations having practical control of a government could happen. Governments are already at least as strongly influenced buy campaign contributions and other kickbacks as they are buy the electorate.

It doesn’t help that threw there media holdings big business can easily influence the electorate.

The current trend against secure employment makes me doubt that nation corps will become a reality. If a corporation tried to force influence over a popularly elected government then there would be problems, all the government would need to do would be declare strikers able to claim social security and run a short advertising campaign and the corporation would not have any workers or customers. Even if they couldn’t afford the social security an advertising campaign would divest the corp of basic consumers.

In order to achieve the influence SR corps have you need corporate citizens as they exist in SR. but you need people that think like that first. They existed 50 years ago. Workers that would get a job and stay with the company until retirement, getting promotions or salary increases based on performance (or preserved performance) as it is in SR.

But the current trend is for low job security and changing employer to get a more advanced position or better salary. This dose not create the kind of employ that will support there employer beyond the terms of there employment, and that is the kind of support that you would need to gain the kind of powers cyberpunk corporations require. But to get that kind of support you need your employees to think well of you.

Edward
Link
QUOTE
While Shadowrun portrays super-powerful megacorps manipulating everything that consumers think and do, isn't it funny how the sixth world has become much more fragmented than the one we live in?


I don't see the conflict of interests between corps and government either now or in the SR future. Look at Fox or Haliburton or Ares and the USA/UCAS for instance. As Dr Nick says, "One hand washes the other".

Take privacy concerns for instance. While we have curtailed governments from invading our privacy for decades, private companies have been busy cataloguing us to the extent that we now ironically are trying to stop government from accessing these same databases - they'd know too much!

Also, are we in the 6th World yet? Isn't that about 2011? Also, to give credit to SR's authors in 1989, Europe today is much more 'balkanised'. Even the Balkans.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (hermit)
A company in Russia tried to pull that stunt, tried to claim power. The remainders of it are now under state control, and the company's founder and leader is now looking towards rotting in a concentration camp for the short rest of his life. Ultimately, all the money in the world will not stop the guys with guns, if they're out to get you.

and this is why sr corps field armys that can take on small nations (and if they manage to cooperate can take on the bigger ones) silly.gif

Critias
QUOTE (hermit)
Ultimately, all the money in the world will not stop the guys with guns, if they're out to get you.

Untrue.

With enough money, you get your own guys with their own guns. It's how governments got them in the first place, too, right?

And that's how the mega's do it, in SR.
hermit
QUOTE (Critias)
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 20 2005, 05:00 PM)
Ultimately, all the money in the world will not stop the guys with guns, if they're out to get you.

Untrue.

With enough money, you get your own guys with their own guns. It's how governments got them in the first place, too, right?

And that's how the mega's do it, in SR.

And, in reality, if the government sees you wanting to buy more guns they have, they take you down, just like that.

Not in SR though, because the governments there are even dumber than those we really have. smile.gif
hobgoblin
well, in sr you have the backing of the law when it comes to corp armys. and for that matter extraterritoriality.

oh and russia have allways been and seems to allways be a dictatorship, no matter if its a tsar, a communist party leader or a democratic president at the helm. so for whoever in charge to take down anyone, any time if they feel a threat (real or not) is a known fact.
hermit
QUOTE
oh and russia have allways been and seems to allways be a dictatorship, no matter if its a tsar, a communist party leader or a democratic president at the helm. so for whoever in charge to take down anyone, any time if they feel a threat (real or not) is a known fact.

I seriously doupt that, for instance, the US federal government would let themselves be stopped by an exterritoriality law if a party within the state's boundaries decided it could take them on. Unless that party has something very nasty to back themsleves up (nukes), they'll be looking forward to getting trampled by soldiers and federal police. And even in that case, I bet the government would try and secure the nukes and then come down on that party, whoever it was. Or even sacrifice one city, display their oppponents as traitors and terrorists, and then move against them.

In the end, every state will value it's own survival (and that of it's ruling class) more than any dubious law. I mean, when the leaders all are arrested and brought to some military prison facility ... what will they do? Sue?
Panzergeist
I don't see how cyberpunk was any more realistic in the 80's. Sure, governments were getting economically conservative and easing up on corporations, but that doesn't imply that they would have kept giving corporations more and more power until governments became powerless. That's just a classical slippery slope fallacy.
Dog
I guess I was thinking more along the lines of cultural fragmentation than political. SR seems to describe a lot less of the everybody eats McDonalds, speaks English, wears a tie to work, celebrates X-mas (instead of Christmas), and wants a new car than things seem to be leading to. (....and this was happening in the 80's too.)

These days, you can find influences of our(? forgive my generalities...) western culture in any part of the world already. But in the 6th world, you have places like the Tirs, Amazonia, the Orc Underground, Pinkskin tribes, and COTD that are contradictory to this trend.
Do we just chalk that up to the awakening is used to give us more diverse plotlines, or is there more to it? Is there a message there, or am I giving the writers too much credit?
Jrayjoker
It was a logical extension of the current situation in the 80s. Japanacorps were becoming more and more powerful in the eyes of a weak economied west. The zaibatsu was the general form the corps took and it was very hard to compete with a company that loaned itself money, made all it own components, mined all its raw materials, etc.

Now, it is not nearly as threatening, so we are less likely to consider it an option.
hermit
QUOTE
I guess I was thinking more along the lines of cultural fragmentation than political. SR seems to describe a lot less of the everybody eats McDonalds, speaks English, wears a tie to work, celebrates X-mas (instead of Christmas), and wants a new car than things seem to be leading to. (....and this was happening in the 80's too.)
These days, you can find influences of our(? forgive my generalities...) western culture in any part of the world already. But in the 6th world, you have places like the Tirs, Amazonia, the Orc Underground, Pinkskin tribes, and COTD that are contradictory to this trend.

Well, I seriously doupt you'll find much of that "global" culture in rural India, rural China, or even rural France. There are areas of the world where Western culture hasn't come to yet.

Besides, Megacorps in SR are truely global, and can be found literally anywhere, including Amazonia (Metropole, teams of raiders who scout the jungle for telesma), the Tirs, and in NAN and tribal areas. And I doupt underground Orcs don't want to live a good corper life, they just cannot because those good corpers don't want them, and hate their guts for that. But given a choice, which orc would stay underground with the rats if he could have a suburban home in a gated community, a SUV and a well-paying job? Few, I daresay.
Edward
Culture will always fragment.

Globalization or corporations communications and travel make things a lot more mixed up but there are still subcultures if you look for them.

As well as American influences in Australia at least I can notice growing central European and Asian influences. When I was young about 75% of international food halls had an active Asian store. (There rest had one but it was closed due to lack of business). Now the small one I frequent has 3 (Chinese, Japanese and curry). The larger has 6.

Even watching American TV lately I see a lot more Chinese take away than burgers (although your Chinese takeaway containers are very different to here).

And there aere new cultures developing around music or social interests and a desire to be different. Culture is losing its locational definition and becoming a choice started buy ones parents and continued (or changed) buy an individual. Buy the middle of this centaury (the time SR starts) I believe that in terms of cultural placement SR wont be far off (the lager cultures will be different, presumably there will not be such strong corporate cultures or metahumans playing at having there own distinct cultures but location will matter less than interest.

This can be a light of a dark prophesy. But I am convinced it will come to pass, one way or another. And as always in this age, it will be the vocal minority that points the way.

Edward
Dog
hey Hermit: http://www.mercycorps.org/items/1742/

JrayJoker: Don't take this as my opinion, but there're lots of anti-globalization activists out there who never considered Japanese corps to be a threat. Like I said, I was thinking cultural globalization. I don't think it's unfair to say that's a North-American influence. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned megacorps.

I'm just trying to refine the purpose of my post here. Cultural globalization of the real world vs. cultural fragmentation of the sixth as a possible theme in the game.

I welcome your comments, guys.

(Talia, you're way better at expressing this stuff. Where are you when we need you most?!)
hermit
Dog: So they donate money to them to compensate for exploiting some of them for cheap assembly of their products. Doesn't exactly make rural China thoroughly westernised, unless I missed something. smile.gif

I was referring to the lack of their culture there being the same as ours, as you implied. These people will never in their life eat at McDonald's, if only because they cannot dream of affording it. McD counts as a classy place in India, you know (but Pizza Hut moreso, since the Rich and Beuatiful really love Pizza over there).

Globalisation is only superficial anyway. Take Europe and the US, for instance. Yeah, we have the same dominant skin colour, wear somewhat similar clothes and have both a favour for some brands, labels and products. But culturally, that's about all we have in common.

Not that European nations are homogenous to begin with.
Cynic project
QUOTE (hermit)

I seriously doupt that, for instance, the US federal government would let themselves be stopped by an exterritoriality law if a party within the state's boundaries decided it could take them on. Unless that party has something very nasty to back themsleves up (nukes), they'll be looking forward to getting trampled by soldiers and federal police.

Let's start off with the simple one. In shadowrun there is no USA. The UCAS is not the USA. Even if it was, USA sold NASA off, because that is how far in the hole they were in.

The CC has at least what four members with nukes, and two or three with orbital mass drivers.

federal police? Um they don't really have those. Most policing is done by corps...
Birdy
QUOTE (hermit)
+Dog: So they donate money to them to compensate for exploiting some of them for cheap assembly of their products. Doesn't exactly make rural China thoroughly westernised, unless I missed something. smile.gif

I was referring to the lack of their culture there being the same as ours, as you implied. These people will never in their life eat at McDonald's, if only because they cannot dream of affording it. McD counts as a classy place in India, you know (but Pizza Hut moreso, since the Rich and Beuatiful really love Pizza over there).

Globalisation is only superficial anyway. Take Europe and the US, for instance. Yeah, we have the same dominant skin colour, wear somewhat similar clothes and have both a favour for some brands, labels and products. But culturally, that's about all we have in common.

Not that European nations are homogenous to begin with.

So there still is a chance that PizzaHut will win the Franchise War? :=)


As for government vs. corps:

Buying your government is an old tradition. If modern politicians had to buy their "sponsors" names in 24pt Times, we would see a return of cloaks and tabbarts due to the necessary space.

And in most Cyberpunk universes, that is as far as it goes. "Exterritoriallity" in most is actually a mix of "You are just an employee, Mr. Cop"[1] and "I bought the mayor so stop or be fired" rather than the SR variant.

Corps can get powerful when it comes to local security but as some already said, the state will step in when it comes to heavy weapons. Against a runner an armored car with a HMG is powerful. Against a military IFV, let alone an MBT it's a joke. And that balance of power will be enforced both by the government and, due to costs, by the corps.

As for cultural diversity:

Most European nations are not even homogenous within their own borders. That reaches from the extrems (ETA in Spain) to the "traditional" (Du<üsseldorf vs. Köln in Germany). "So you married a foreigner" was overheard at a recent marriage. The groom was from a different city. Heck, in some parts of say Duisburg you feel like you are in Istanbul. Before Atatürk. Guess the US has similar stuff.

As for balkanisation:

Actually a globally operating industry and a balcanised world can work. It might even be in the interest of the "big players". Imagin China twenty to fourty years down the road. Unless it can be corrupted, it must be broken up. Otherwise that HUGE and self-sufficient market could easily resist the ideas of unlimited capitalism.


Birdy



[1] Still, nothing beats seeing Mr. "I am Important and know the Mayor" being forcefully subdued, handcuffed and escorted to the "Black Mariah" by two friendly local cops. Got to love the "can't be fired" status of german policeman. :=)
hermit
QUOTE
Actually a globally operating industry and a balcanised world can work. It might even be in the interest of the "big players". Imagin China twenty to fourty years down the road. Unless it can be corrupted, it must be broken up. Otherwise that HUGE and self-sufficient market could easily resist the ideas of unlimited capitalism.

An idea it has already vehemently embraced ... it has actually embraced these ideas with Jiang's reforms in the late 80s.
arcady
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (Panzergeist @ Jul 20 2005, 03:56 PM)
Cyberpunk is just not a realistic vision of the future.

It was at the time.

Modern Cyberpunk doesn't use the same premise of the future as classic 80s-punk did.

The Japan style mega corps, weak governments, 3D walk-through nets, Japanese supremacy, cyberpsychosis and other elements are gone in favor of more socio-political alienation, nets either not mentioned or if present more like advances of the real net, a mix of government and corporate confusion, memetic themes, nanotech, artificial humans and geneiticly altered humans and animals, and well, more of a look at the future from how it seems to be progressing today rather than how it seemed them.

The dystopia and growing alienation is of course, still there.
hobgoblin
and the allconsuming question, what makes a person a person silly.gif
arcady
Thus the mention of 'socio-political alienation and memetic themes', but yes, transhumanism is starting to play a role in the genre even if its largest role is still just with Steve Jackson Games.

At least my take. When I started reading books listed in Transhuman Space's bibliography the ones I chose never had much Transhumanism in them. The book with the most 'bug eyed monsters playing at human' that I've read was Moreau Omnibus - a 'furry Cyberpunk' novel based in a future where animals were uplifted to provide cheap disposable infantry, and now many of them and their descandants have lived past military use and having rough times fitting in with human civilians.

Its also one of the few Cyberpunk novels I've read with more than one or two scenes of violence in it. I think it reached up to three in the first of the three novels (Omnibus as it is a colleciton of three older novels by that author republished a few years back - he since wrote a fourth that is sitting on my shelf in the 'reading queue').


At the time 80s Cyberpunk came out, much of it was already known to be unreal and absurd, but the early authors didn't have expertise in the right fields. Gibson's cyberspace for example, was already outdated by the net that had existed since the (60s?) - which showed a superior albeit slower method of organizing data. Today's net is already faster than his, and if you plug a neural interface into it without the 3D walkthrough it will blow away Gibson's idea. That neural interface btw, already exists and is in use to get people with full body paralysis to be able to communicate and operate robot arms. They've got only a few of them made so far, at research hospitals - but it exists.

Also, Japan was a falling star the moment it rose, and any serious look at its population demographics and certain socio-political dynamics would have shown that. It suffers from baby boom dynamics much worse than ours, with most of those babies born in the 80s - which will put it on a massive depression dwarfing the current one right as China matures and as the EU expands (I don't know enough on the EU to even risk an opinion over whether or not it will overtake the US, but I sure hope it outpaces China even though I doubt it). The socio-political angle is the 'one trick pony' problem - Japan refuses to change its business culture and internal power dynamics. It is too monocultural and monoethnic to be able to adapt fast enough, and the future is all about adaptation. Even today, nearly a decade into a recession / depression, Japan has done almost nothing to address the core issues causing it - it is merely waiting for the rest of the world to come back around to the ideal conditions for its style to hold supremacy, but while the philosophy that time moves in cycles sounds wonderful, nothing guarantees it or says how long it can take even when it does happen.

Meanwhile, the socio-political-economic conditions of its main rivals and enemies - China, S. Korea, and Vietnam; have all seen and survived massive change on near unprecidented scales. All three nations that, if nobody were looking, would dump a few spare nukes into Japanese territory just to 'get even'. They want Japan stable today as it is still bigger economically, but as they rise, you can be sure they will work to pass and then put down Japan - until it manages to get over its pride and make amends for history (as Germany has tried to do and largely succeeded at, only with Japan you've got a 1000 years of bad blood and not just one half-century).


On the more humorous of 'why classic Cyberpunk didn't work even then' angles... look at what drives fashion. Fashion has always been driven by sex appeal and social rank - with social rank in the primative psych merely being a matter of better access to superior mates. Chroming yourself up is always going to be seen as deviant when or if it takes away the things that make you sexually appealing. That will then work to subconsiously make it disfavored as a display of status as well.

Chroming up in less visible ways might not be an issue however, or using 'bio-cosmetics' to enhance the natural or make it special - such as givng yourself elf-ears, green skin, or a three-foot long prehensile and actually working 'you-know-what'... But chances are that level of extremism will be seen the same way piercings, tattoos, and extreme body fetism is seen today - repulsive to the larger society. Attraction is driven by biology to the norm - because the norm is typically there due to its reproductive viability and superiority over other options in the given conditions the given population derives from. The more abnormal you are, the less attractive you are going to be. That is then countered by an attraction to the mysterious which works to bring in new 'genetic variety' and thus improve viability. Those two countering forces would play out over how chroming up was seen.

Mild chroming will probably be popular - where it works to make you look younger and / or healthier - much like plastic surgery. Fetishism might drive other forms of chroming and genetic tampering but remain outside the mainstream.

'kewl' doesn't equal 'likely'.
Kagetenshi
That's certainly true at the beginning, but the measure of what is "attractive" changes—Henry VIII holding a leg of game meat is no longer the pinnacle of manly vigor.

If obvious 'ware offers enough benefits and/or becomes sufficiently connected with status, it will become attractive to be 'wared.

~J
hobgoblin
sure a cyberlimb will never become high fashion, but it may become a work requirement nyahnyah.gif

and a datajack will most likely become similar in status to what a cellphone or pda have today.

i dont think that there will be fashion models walking down the catwalk showing of the latest cyber tho. that is outside of direct fashionware like say makeup or tatoo nanos that can apply any style of tatoo or makeup somewhere on your body and so on cyber.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
sure a cyberlimb will never become high fashion

Care for a wager on that? Personally, I think you're about as wrong as it gets.

~J
hobgoblin
maybe i am, and maybe ill never be around to see how wrong i am. only time can tell nyahnyah.gif fashion have done crasyer stuff before wink.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (hermit)
QUOTE
oh and russia have allways been and seems to allways be a dictatorship, no matter if its a tsar, a communist party leader or a democratic president at the helm. so for whoever in charge to take down anyone, any time if they feel a threat (real or not) is a known fact.

I seriously doupt that, for instance, the US federal government would let themselves be stopped by an exterritoriality law if a party within the state's boundaries decided it could take them on. Unless that party has something very nasty to back themsleves up (nukes), they'll be looking forward to getting trampled by soldiers and federal police. And even in that case, I bet the government would try and secure the nukes and then come down on that party, whoever it was. Or even sacrifice one city, display their oppponents as traitors and terrorists, and then move against them.

In the end, every state will value it's own survival (and that of it's ruling class) more than any dubious law. I mean, when the leaders all are arrested and brought to some military prison facility ... what will they do? Sue?

The US certainly wouldn't let it be stopped by the extrateritoriality of a rinky-dink corp any more than it let the extratoritality of Panama or Soverign Immunity prevent the US government from kidnaping and imprisoning Noriega.

However, the US government would think twice about pulling that with China. Corporations can usurp governments if they have both economic power and the military might to enforce their wills.

This has happened in the past. The nation of Rhodesia is a good example. A Cecil Rhodes suit negoaites mineral rights with an African chief who can't read a word of English. Never, ever, sign a contract in a language that you can't read. While the chief thought he was giving the De Beers corporation the right to dig a small number of mines the contract gave De Beers the rights to ever mineral in the entire country.

Rhodes took this contract to the Queen Victoria and asked for permission to create an armed security force in order to secure the minerals. She does and sells him several machine guns. The nation's leaders get a little angry at the excessive mining. Debeer's security people whip out the HMGs. Spears vs. HMGs. The result is tragicly obvious. Rhodes renames the nation after himself and for some time it was practically a subsidery of De Beers.

The key here is that Rhodes had the support of a powerful nation that gave him permission to create and maintain a military force and to use that force to carve out and maintain an extraterritorial zone.
This didn't last long in the face of political realities, Rhodesia was technically a British territory and the British government treated it that way.

The US government game the Megacorps permission to set up extrateritorial zones and maintain privite armys. At the time, there was nothing threatening about this. However, the US's ability to keep corporations in line was severly limited when the nation broke up.
The UCAS doesn't have half the effective military power that the US did. Combine this with the fact that the Extratoritial Megacorps are the ones hat develop the weapons that the UCAS military uses, and there isn't really much of a choice. The US, had it not been ran into the ground by asshats, would easily smack down any megacorp that got out of line. However, the US doesn't exist any more. The UCAS going after Ares or Renrak uwould be like Israel invading the United States today. Not only would it be absurdly foolish, but it would hurt the UCAS economicly if it did succeed.
Moirdryd
Hoi Chummers.

While I agree a certain amount of the Sixth World is unlikely to come to pass. In the forms of states and the way some of the Mega`s exist I would also happily point out some truly frightening similarities.

First up; there are already some corps that have forms of Extraterritoriality out there. I know that two of our modern day Mega`s actually own a couple of rather small island clusters, employ everyone on those islands and have an armed `enforcement` presence there.

Second, It seems more and more likely we are about to get SIN`s in the UK. Heck they even called them Standard Identity Numbers when the first started the concept. These new ID `cards` will eventually act as Passport, Credit rating referance, Have any liscences you hold attached to them ect, they are even looking at extending them to function as banking cards (though I doubt they`ll get that) so they are as good as SR SIN`s in many respects.

Third, Many of the Youth of the past decade have become brand obsessed to a ridiculous degree as well as store loyalty beginning to show. (again this is a UK pov) and the Consumer attitude has grown with it. I know a great number of young ladies who quite happily spend half a week`s wages on items they only ever wear once or only last a night and yet will brag happily about them untill they are used. A fair number of men are as bad, getting overly expensive things they will only wreck in a short space of time but will quite happily pay through the nose for the next item.

Fourth; Corp advertising is getting cleverer, combining the age old `lets show how good our product is compared to everyone else`s` with actual entertainment value even to the point of a serial nature where people look forwards to seeing them or hope to catch the ones they`ve missed. Reflect on that one to realise how scary it truly is.

Fith; Another entirely UK based one here. A small town community has hired a Private Security firm to protect the residents against acts of Violent crime, Car thefts, breaking and entering and anti-social/ganglike behavour on the streets. This is because local police lack the resources to effectively tackle the problem. This firm actively patrols the streets and all the members of the hiring community have Panic Buttons that are wired into a pager system to the Sec Guards as well as direct call access to a switchboard/ patrolmen. Sound Familliar?

Will Mega`s rule the world as per SR, No, probably not.
Will they be ever present and very very controlling factors of our existences without us ever realising it fully? More than likely.
hobgoblin
about that fifth item, i belive that in the us there are guarded&gated communitys where private security patrol the streets and area around.
Sicarius
About the SIN. The US has Social Security numbers which every citizen has, everyone asks for, and you can do basically nothing without. I think its fairly common now days in most post-industrial nations.

The difference between the SIN and the identification forms we have now, is that you aren't excluded from having one. You can't avoid having one for the most part, even if you wanted to!

The SINLess in SR have been forced into that position, they've been deprived of id, citizenship, etc. Seems to me the trend is to FORCE id upon people whether they want it or not, rather than to exclude them from possessing it.

(that being said, there are large numbers of illegal aliens in the States, and probably many other places, who don't have such id. But that's not to say they don't or wouldn't have legal ID where they are originally from, they just don't have it where they currently are.)

I think that's probably a subtle difference, but of course the ramifications are equally distressing.
Cynic project
By the way there are private companies hire out highly trained military people. IE mercanenaries. even the US use them.
mmu1
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jul 22 2005, 12:34 PM)
sure a cyberlimb will never become high fashion

Care for a wager on that? Personally, I think you're about as wrong as it gets.

~J

I don't think elective (as opposed to trauma) cyberlimb surgery is going to catch on in any realistically conceaivable future. Or any large cybernetic implants, for that matter, aside from some form of DNI.

Once you have a perfected DNI - which is the hardest part - why would you want to cut away parts of your body to get implants? Put on a pair of DNI-linked glasses that do everything cybereyes would, or put on a DNI-controlled "frame" that'll enhance your strength and speed without needing to get limbs hacked off.

Of course, there are all the stupid people to consider, like the ones today that get massive amounts of plastic surgery done in one go because it's cheaper and because they're too dumb to realize that just because it's an outpatient procedure, it's not quite like going to the dentist - then they start weeping when they come out of anaesthesia and find out their whole body is hurting worse than it ever did in their life... (I know it means I'm not a good person, but that's probably the only part of MTV programming I enjoy) But I think that, if nothing else, the cost of cybernetics will help to keep that sort of thing down.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (mmu1)
it's not quite like going to the dentist - then they start weeping when they come out of anaesthesia and find out their whole body is hurting worse than it ever did in their life...

Never had major dental surgery, eh? wink.gif

I still think it isn't improbable, but if the utilitarian purpose is never there it would I admit be significantly less likely that the fashion angle would emerge.

~J
Cynic project
QUOTE (mmu1)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jul 22 2005, 12:52 PM)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jul 22 2005, 12:34 PM)
sure a cyberlimb will never become high fashion

Care for a wager on that? Personally, I think you're about as wrong as it gets.

~J

I don't think elective (as opposed to trauma) cyberlimb surgery is going to catch on in any realistically conceaivable future. Or any large cybernetic implants, for that matter, aside from some form of DNI.

Once you have a perfected DNI - which is the hardest part - why would you want to cut away parts of your body to get implants? Put on a pair of DNI-linked glasses that do everything cybereyes would, or put on a DNI-controlled "frame" that'll enhance your strength and speed without needing to get limbs hacked off.

Of course, there are all the stupid people to consider, like the ones today that get massive amounts of plastic surgery done in one go because it's cheaper and because they're too dumb to realize that just because it's an outpatient procedure, it's not quite like going to the dentist - then they start weeping when they come out of anaesthesia and find out their whole body is hurting worse than it ever did in their life... (I know it means I'm not a good person, but that's probably the only part of MTV programming I enjoy) But I think that, if nothing else, the cost of cybernetics will help to keep that sort of thing down.

And never mind the people who get full body tattoos, artistic scaring, repace teeth because they can, or any other fucked up thing a human will do it's body.
Kagetenshi
Yeah, like wear a constricting adornment around the neck.

~J
arcady
Full body tattoos make a great example. They're a deviant meme - which is the likely best place cybernetic limbs will find.

People do it, but they're fringe setters and not trend setters. Ken and Barbie won't ever be into hacking off their own limbs as a fashion statement.
hyzmarca
The fashion angle depends on how unobtrusive and versitile the technology is. People won't be hacking off thei own limbs, but I can see the implanted computers becoming status symbols. You'd be able to tell a person's income level by the brand name on the LCD screen in their forearm.
Velocity
I hope you all aren't having this discussion without having seen Aimee Mullins:

Picture 1 (more-or-less work safe)
Picture 2 (work safe)
Picture 3 (work safe)
Picture 4 (work safe)

Olympic athelete, activist, trend-setter and all-around grade-A sex symbol. Fascinating person.
hobgoblin
but did she select to have her feet replaced by what at best can be described as kid stealth prototypes?
Velocity
She has multiple prostheses: the "kid stealth" legs are her running legs, for athletic competition. She also has more traditionally-styled legs for when she's wearing long pants, for instance. For the record, none of her prostheses look remotely human: even on her 'human' legs, the joints are obviously mechanical.

And no, she did not intentionally give up her legs. My point was just that if people here are going to engage in a discussion on the fashionability and sexiness of prostheses, Ms. Mullins' life, body and career are relevant.
hobgoblin
yes, but will it ever be so sexy that people with fully working legs will replace them?

not likely unless they allso can make you a better athelete then the current top olympic ones. and im not talking about the para-olympics...

currently the prostetics can barely mimic the basics while still looking somewhat human while coverd.

its anyones guess what will happen the day one can get prostetics that are as good or better then the flesh and bones one is born with.

but to get that one will most likely need a fully working neural interface so that the electronics controling the replacement integrates fully with the neural system of the body.

recently there have been some interesting developments in that area. but its babysteps...
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