Full Version: General Questions
Simple solution: have the rolls done in front of a judge. Unfortunately this may be a problem in that the judges will have to come up with good, possibly uniform hosts for every corp that the players will want to infiltrate, which will require a significant amount of extra work for you guys.
actually, no...we are working on a campaign project (called "Mission Briefs" for those that are interested) that will be a resource for GMs that will include just such information...it will make a GMs job much easier. Writers can also use it to simplify thier work, as standard NPCs such as corporate strike teams and major fixers will be included and can be referenced.
our priority though is the adventures, and work continues on those...
so while for now it may be difficult to convince a GM to work with you on decking into Mitsuhama's mainframe, please be patient and remember that as the campaign grows and we develop more information, you'll be able to do more and more and really make such avenues as decking worth while...
our priority though is the adventures, and work continues on those...
so while for now it may be difficult to convince a GM to work with you on decking into Mitsuhama's mainframe, please be patient and remember that as the campaign grows and we develop more information, you'll be able to do more and more and really make such avenues as decking worth while...
Decking is always worthwhile, if only for the data searches 
Anyway, I noticed while digging in Matrix that programming options (ie, stealth, etc) are optional. Are we allowed to have them?
Anyway, I noticed while digging in Matrix that programming options (ie, stealth, etc) are optional. Are we allowed to have them?
unfortunately, you used the key word - optional...if so, then no, they cannot be used...
options, yes
optional, no
sorry...
options, yes
optional, no
sorry...
No problem. It never hurts to ask, after all. Oh a side note, it should balance out since IC options are presented in the same section and are optional as well 
It does make programming suites a lot less useful, though.
It does make programming suites a lot less useful, though.
The one that gets to me is that the rule allowing deckers to give up a Hacking Pool die to supress IC, and the rule that allows you to use hacking pool to increase DF at a 2-1 ratio are also optional. On paper, the lack of those rules seems to make Matrix overwatch really, really tough to do, although at least being able to run in Masking Mode will help a little.
removed a post...was not relevant to the discussion...
and, EOTLF, you must have been confused, because i never said anything regarding the issue in question - i believe the player answered you - i had no problem with the solution....you guys just talked yourself out of it...
and, EOTLF, you must have been confused, because i never said anything regarding the issue in question - i believe the player answered you - i had no problem with the solution....you guys just talked yourself out of it...
As I'm the guy working on Mission Briefs, I can tell you that any only-decking runs I create for Briefs will use ONLY the SR3 rules. I have access to Matrix, but the player going on the decking run may not, and therefore to avoid complications I will use the basic rules.
I apologize in advance to those players who really like Matrix, but it's a decision made for the inclusion of the greater number of players, and not just the ones with the 'decker book'.
I apologize in advance to those players who really like Matrix, but it's a decision made for the inclusion of the greater number of players, and not just the ones with the 'decker book'.
Will you include things like paydata that players who do have access to Matrix will be able to use? I feel that a better paradigm would be to only require the use of SR3, but allow players using Matrix to get a little bit more out of the decking.
One of the first scenarios has paydata specified, along with the value of each paydata point that you get. It's not the incredible price by point as in the Matrix book, but giving this information help deckers get a little something more.
When I figure out how to integrate the Matrix rules so that they can be used in a module or a Brief for a GM who may not have the book, I may use that.
Demolition Run had things for a decker to do, special rewards you could get if you play a decker and think outside the box.
Demolition Run had things for a decker to do, special rewards you could get if you play a decker and think outside the box.
exactly....where/when we have sections that are targeted towards deckers, we'll try to include as much info as possible, including things like paydata value...
and Deacon is right - the adventures or briefs will try to stay within the core rules as much as possible, but occasionally we may develop something that requires the Matrix book - those sections will be outlined as such, so that the GM/players will know beforehand. if it is a minor section (a paragraph or two), we can just add the text directly from the book as a ready reference...(citing source, credit, blah blah blah)
and Deacon is right - the adventures or briefs will try to stay within the core rules as much as possible, but occasionally we may develop something that requires the Matrix book - those sections will be outlined as such, so that the GM/players will know beforehand. if it is a minor section (a paragraph or two), we can just add the text directly from the book as a ready reference...(citing source, credit, blah blah blah)
I am developing a Brief for a decker, in fact... a small investigation that can be done by one or two characters, if a full group doesn't show up to play. A decking run will be part of it -- in fact, probably half of it.
Briefs are a better place in which to do this sort of thing, because I can also do an investigation Brief which doesn't require a decker -- and therefore if one isn't at the table, the GM is covered.
Briefs are a better place in which to do this sort of thing, because I can also do an investigation Brief which doesn't require a decker -- and therefore if one isn't at the table, the GM is covered.
| QUOTE (bitrunner) |
| 1. on the average, a shadowrun will take place over a weeks time. one shadowrun = one week. 2. there are four game weeks in a game month. therefore, you can go on four shadowruns in the same month and only pay one month of lifestyle expenses. 3. you can do other things like programming or B/R, etc at the times specified in the books. anything that takes less than a day is a freebee. 4. one game year = one real year. anything less does not necessarily match up. this means that, in DFs example, if you play SRM00-01 in june, and SRM00-02 in july, in real life there is one month between them. in game, however, each player must decide (and of course players must realize that they each have different schedules and therefore must have a suspension of disbelief when comparing who played what and when) for themselves when those runs occurred. one player may want to save money and decide that his character did both runs back to back. another player may decide that his character, a mage, needs to learn some spells and take care of some other business before the second run, and therefore takes the rest of the month off. however, come december, everyone's calendar will close out for the year. |
I read that again and I have an important question. In one of the SRM00-01 I ran, one runner got a serious wound. To heal that, he had to go to a clinic for 2 weeks. Does that means that any runners who will play SRM00-02 with him got a forced two weeks break? If they wanted to cover a high lifestyle by doing 4 runs in a month, that would makes it impossible.
I'm really confused about what to do with that.
no, no, no...
time is subjective for EACH person...
while that person had to spend 2 weeks mending that wound, the others in his group can go on to do 2 more shadowruns during that time, if they so desire...
if they all journey again next time, their calendars (probably) won't mesh - this is where a slight suspension of disbelief comes into play...
the calendar is simply an aid to keep track of how many shadowruns can be performed combined with time intensive stuff like customizing a vehicle or creating a magic focus during a single month of lifestyle expenses and/or during a year. if someone is getting deadly wounds a lot, they are not going to get to participate in as many runs as someone that does not get injured. also, if a mage character spends all their time creating magic items, then they are not going to have as much time to adventure, which will slow down the Karma faucet for them, hence they will not be able to continue making foci...it helps keep everything in balance...
time is subjective for EACH person...
while that person had to spend 2 weeks mending that wound, the others in his group can go on to do 2 more shadowruns during that time, if they so desire...
if they all journey again next time, their calendars (probably) won't mesh - this is where a slight suspension of disbelief comes into play...
the calendar is simply an aid to keep track of how many shadowruns can be performed combined with time intensive stuff like customizing a vehicle or creating a magic focus during a single month of lifestyle expenses and/or during a year. if someone is getting deadly wounds a lot, they are not going to get to participate in as many runs as someone that does not get injured. also, if a mage character spends all their time creating magic items, then they are not going to have as much time to adventure, which will slow down the Karma faucet for them, hence they will not be able to continue making foci...it helps keep everything in balance...
One of the interesting things about this campaign is that you do have to keep track of healing times for your character. If you run out of time for the year, well, looks like it's time for another character to play while the first is healing.
Provides a nice healthy incentive not to go out and risk your hide on stupid stuff, if you're just going to lose a month and a half in healing, time which could be better spent on other, more productive things.
It's our answer to the Time Units of other, similar campaigns... And there are ways to maximize the benefit one gets out of their time spent, already in the game, which is kinda nice as well. Gives people reasons to get sleep regulators and dope themselves up with Long Haul (while trying to avoid getting addicted, heh heh... 'cuz once you're addicted, you're out of the campaign, or so the rules on the shadowrun website say).
Provides a nice healthy incentive not to go out and risk your hide on stupid stuff, if you're just going to lose a month and a half in healing, time which could be better spent on other, more productive things.
It's our answer to the Time Units of other, similar campaigns... And there are ways to maximize the benefit one gets out of their time spent, already in the game, which is kinda nice as well. Gives people reasons to get sleep regulators and dope themselves up with Long Haul (while trying to avoid getting addicted, heh heh... 'cuz once you're addicted, you're out of the campaign, or so the rules on the shadowrun website say).
Just to check because I am not sure I totally understood the exchange:
Non-commandos can run Missions for players and give out sanctioned record sheets when the run is completed? If this is the case where do you retrieve the record sheets and other accoutrements you need. I assume you just use the missions that are downloadable off of the server, correct?
Thanks for clearing up my poor comprehension. I'm just happy if I'll be able to run missions for my players that we may be missing while we are all at college and such and still be able to advance the characters at the same time.
Non-commandos can run Missions for players and give out sanctioned record sheets when the run is completed? If this is the case where do you retrieve the record sheets and other accoutrements you need. I assume you just use the missions that are downloadable off of the server, correct?
Thanks for clearing up my poor comprehension. I'm just happy if I'll be able to run missions for my players that we may be missing while we are all at college and such and still be able to advance the characters at the same time.
These record sheets are included with the downloadable adventure packs.
The packs consist of
A: The adventure itself
B: Player handout for the adventure, record sheets, mission summaries ...
Just go, download one and see for yourself ...
The packs consist of
A: The adventure itself
B: Player handout for the adventure, record sheets, mission summaries ...
Just go, download one and see for yourself ...
By the way ...
as I understand it, only the introductory adventures will be available for public download. All other adventures will be to be requested with the Campaign Director.
Can anyone tell me, where / how we will find out, which adventures are available for requesting ?
as I understand it, only the introductory adventures will be available for public download. All other adventures will be to be requested with the Campaign Director.
Can anyone tell me, where / how we will find out, which adventures are available for requesting ?
Thanks linei. I had one downloaded, but I guess in my quick scan I didn't notice the record sheets. Also wasn't sure on the information page what "commando credit" was. I thought that might be the ability to give out sanctioned karma and such. The help is much appreciated.
OK, back from the hurricanes this week!
I see that everyone has been active while i was gone. Linei has answered the questions nicely...
First of all, Yes...only the first five demo adventures will be available through the website. All story arc adventures will need to be requested through me...the first adventure, SRM01-01 Double Cross, will be available to the public shortly...
although, of course, right now everything seems to be going through me, since they have been having some wonky problems on the main site that don't allow downloads of the first 3...#4 and #5 will be released to the public soon.
Commandos and Shadowrun Missions:
First of all, let me start by saying that these are two separate programs, for the most part. there is nothing anywhere that says that you have to be a Commando to order, run, or otherwise officiate the games. We understand that there are many areas that do not have a Commando that can run games, or that can commit to the time or travel necessary to do so - we have groups playing SR Missions all over Europe, Australia, Canada, and South America, as well as several other countries and regions around the world. As we said, you can play this campaign at home, and still be "official" as long as you don't use your characters for anything else (ie play in a "home brew" adventure). If someday you are lucky enough to attend a convention where SRM events are held, or you move to an area that has another active SRM group, you can jump right in with your character.
So, why do we talk about Commandos?? Well, Commandos are the official "outriders" for FanPro. They have the authority to make rulings in the field or witness any special activities as if it were coming from me - they are my direct representatives in the field. Consider them like circuit court justices and i'm the Supreme Court. Normally, anything you need you will be able to get or resolve through them. I post all the adventures to the Commandos first. This is a) a privilege of them belonging to the program and b) allows them to look over the adventure, playtest it, and send me any corrections/problems that they happen to find so that i can make the changes before releasing it to the general public. this is why you have seen so many people talking about an adventure, such as Dark & Stormy Night, and yet you can't play it....don't feel bad, it is just that you probably don't have a Commando nearby that is running it. Believe me, this is a great example - after running it a few times at Gencon, the author and the other GMs got together and came up with ways to improve it - it's twice as good as it was before! this does NOT invalidate the earlier groups that played this adventure however - we just made some changes in format and some descriptions to make it "scarier"...the goals and outcome and karma and all other awards are the same...
Also, Commandos have the privilege of acting as contacts for special gaming and metagaming activities. For instance, when the time comes, if you wish to start your own magical group, the rules state that you must search for an Avatar - in our case, this will be a Commando - you must have a Commando sponsor any player created magical groups (note that the campaign will have overall magical groups that anyone can join). Later on, we may allow player Shadowrun Teams, which will be similar to Guilds or PA Halls of the online games and will allow you to have big ticket items such as shops (the B/R kind such as vehicle, electronic, etc), safehouses, etc. Once again, you'll need a Commando to sponsor and manage this for you and your group. At conventions, Commandos will be required for running certain interactive events or other metagaming events.
So, you can see that while you don't need a Commando to play and enjoy the game, having one around may become useful in the future. The good news is, with today's virtual world, you STILL don't have to have a Commando in your backyard to do a lot of the stuff above - you just need to have access to one...if you live in Germany, and want to form a magic group with someone in New York, Boston, and Miami, and can find a Commando in Dallas that is willing to sponsor you, then have at it!
The game is, after all, meant to accomplish two things - sell FanPro/Shadowrun products (so buy stuff!!) and play the game and have fun....My job is to encourage you to do the former, while ensuring that you receive the latter...
I see that everyone has been active while i was gone. Linei has answered the questions nicely...
First of all, Yes...only the first five demo adventures will be available through the website. All story arc adventures will need to be requested through me...the first adventure, SRM01-01 Double Cross, will be available to the public shortly...
although, of course, right now everything seems to be going through me, since they have been having some wonky problems on the main site that don't allow downloads of the first 3...#4 and #5 will be released to the public soon.
Commandos and Shadowrun Missions:
First of all, let me start by saying that these are two separate programs, for the most part. there is nothing anywhere that says that you have to be a Commando to order, run, or otherwise officiate the games. We understand that there are many areas that do not have a Commando that can run games, or that can commit to the time or travel necessary to do so - we have groups playing SR Missions all over Europe, Australia, Canada, and South America, as well as several other countries and regions around the world. As we said, you can play this campaign at home, and still be "official" as long as you don't use your characters for anything else (ie play in a "home brew" adventure). If someday you are lucky enough to attend a convention where SRM events are held, or you move to an area that has another active SRM group, you can jump right in with your character.
So, why do we talk about Commandos?? Well, Commandos are the official "outriders" for FanPro. They have the authority to make rulings in the field or witness any special activities as if it were coming from me - they are my direct representatives in the field. Consider them like circuit court justices and i'm the Supreme Court. Normally, anything you need you will be able to get or resolve through them. I post all the adventures to the Commandos first. This is a) a privilege of them belonging to the program and b) allows them to look over the adventure, playtest it, and send me any corrections/problems that they happen to find so that i can make the changes before releasing it to the general public. this is why you have seen so many people talking about an adventure, such as Dark & Stormy Night, and yet you can't play it....don't feel bad, it is just that you probably don't have a Commando nearby that is running it. Believe me, this is a great example - after running it a few times at Gencon, the author and the other GMs got together and came up with ways to improve it - it's twice as good as it was before! this does NOT invalidate the earlier groups that played this adventure however - we just made some changes in format and some descriptions to make it "scarier"...the goals and outcome and karma and all other awards are the same...
Also, Commandos have the privilege of acting as contacts for special gaming and metagaming activities. For instance, when the time comes, if you wish to start your own magical group, the rules state that you must search for an Avatar - in our case, this will be a Commando - you must have a Commando sponsor any player created magical groups (note that the campaign will have overall magical groups that anyone can join). Later on, we may allow player Shadowrun Teams, which will be similar to Guilds or PA Halls of the online games and will allow you to have big ticket items such as shops (the B/R kind such as vehicle, electronic, etc), safehouses, etc. Once again, you'll need a Commando to sponsor and manage this for you and your group. At conventions, Commandos will be required for running certain interactive events or other metagaming events.
So, you can see that while you don't need a Commando to play and enjoy the game, having one around may become useful in the future. The good news is, with today's virtual world, you STILL don't have to have a Commando in your backyard to do a lot of the stuff above - you just need to have access to one...if you live in Germany, and want to form a magic group with someone in New York, Boston, and Miami, and can find a Commando in Dallas that is willing to sponsor you, then have at it!
The game is, after all, meant to accomplish two things - sell FanPro/Shadowrun products (so buy stuff!!) and play the game and have fun....My job is to encourage you to do the former, while ensuring that you receive the latter...
| QUOTE (bitrunner) |
| I see that everyone has been active while i was gone. Linei has answered the questions nicely |
Always glad to help out
| QUOTE (bitrunner) |
| All story arc adventures will need to be requested through me...the first adventure, SRM01-01 Double Cross, will be available to the public shortly |
Will it be announced on the main web site just like the introductory adventures ? Or is there a special web site dedicated to arc adventures ?
You sure you don’t mean facilities? If shops are big-ticket, I fear for how much these runners make.
~J
~J
uh, yeah, facilities...
on the serious side, runners should be making an average of 2,500 nuyen as Green characters, and progressively more as they advance and their reputations grow...check out the SRComp pg 100 for examples of what runners should expect to earn for various shadowruns...we use that as a guide for Green runners, and in most cases, bump it up a little....we also award a little bit more in the demo adventures in order to get players hooked because we know that most players have at least one thing that they really wanted to buy during creation, but couldn't due to limiting factors, and this helps them jumpstart their goal. karma is the same way. by and large, the story arc adventures will follow closer to the guidelines, and karma will be on average 2-3 points per player before individual awards.
story arc adventure listings...good question...
now that i think about it, what i'll probably have to do is have adam whip up a page for the story arc adventures but instead of downloading the files, it opens up a form that can be filled out and submitted to me - that way, i get the info i need in the format i want as well...
on the serious side, runners should be making an average of 2,500 nuyen as Green characters, and progressively more as they advance and their reputations grow...check out the SRComp pg 100 for examples of what runners should expect to earn for various shadowruns...we use that as a guide for Green runners, and in most cases, bump it up a little....we also award a little bit more in the demo adventures in order to get players hooked because we know that most players have at least one thing that they really wanted to buy during creation, but couldn't due to limiting factors, and this helps them jumpstart their goal. karma is the same way. by and large, the story arc adventures will follow closer to the guidelines, and karma will be on average 2-3 points per player before individual awards.
story arc adventure listings...good question...
now that i think about it, what i'll probably have to do is have adam whip up a page for the story arc adventures but instead of downloading the files, it opens up a form that can be filled out and submitted to me - that way, i get the info i need in the format i want as well...
Keep in mind that that means that runners will have to spend no more than 5k average over the course of a month to afford a Middle lifestyle.
~J
~J
of course! and that is where the beauty of the calendars comes in....players can choose to have their character do more than one run in a month, thereby saving money on lifestyle - and if they are smart and don't get hurt, they can do up to four....
that makes runners want to do more runs, turn down less runs, etc.
it also keeps the campaign from spiraling out of control (hopefully) by having characters all living luxury lifestyles as starting level characters...
remember, the campaign is supposed to be more "street" level at first, meaning that the average runner should be able to afford Middle lifestyle - a simple yet clean apartment with dependable power in Renton or Auburn...the runner has little or no reputation, why would a Johnson pay outrageous sums of money for them??
characters should NOT be able to do four or five runs and then go out and find a delta clinic and get Move-By-Wire systems implanted, or having mages run off and making level 5 katana weapon foci.
simply put - monetary rewards are easy to adjust upwards in the game, but much more difficult to pull back down, so as long as the characters are at an average level in terms of money/living expenses for their reputation level, then we're on track...
that makes runners want to do more runs, turn down less runs, etc.
it also keeps the campaign from spiraling out of control (hopefully) by having characters all living luxury lifestyles as starting level characters...
remember, the campaign is supposed to be more "street" level at first, meaning that the average runner should be able to afford Middle lifestyle - a simple yet clean apartment with dependable power in Renton or Auburn...the runner has little or no reputation, why would a Johnson pay outrageous sums of money for them??
characters should NOT be able to do four or five runs and then go out and find a delta clinic and get Move-By-Wire systems implanted, or having mages run off and making level 5 katana weapon foci.
simply put - monetary rewards are easy to adjust upwards in the game, but much more difficult to pull back down, so as long as the characters are at an average level in terms of money/living expenses for their reputation level, then we're on track...
Couple of quick questions:
Does a Commando need to witness programming rolls if there isn't any theft of host time and stuff like that? Can players use the rules for programming together?
and
This is another odd and perhaps stupid sounding question, so forgive me, but in SR00-03 what should one do about the paydata and the downloadable smart frames if the dice say the player managed to get them and then sell them? The monetary value of these seem a bit beyond the scope of the other players' rewards, and even if split could interfere a bit with the "street" feel of the game already. Thanks for your time.
Does a Commando need to witness programming rolls if there isn't any theft of host time and stuff like that? Can players use the rules for programming together?
and
This is another odd and perhaps stupid sounding question, so forgive me, but in SR00-03 what should one do about the paydata and the downloadable smart frames if the dice say the player managed to get them and then sell them? The monetary value of these seem a bit beyond the scope of the other players' rewards, and even if split could interfere a bit with the "street" feel of the game already. Thanks for your time.
| QUOTE (Cthulhu449) |
| in SR00-03 what should one do about the paydata and the downloadable smart frames if the dice say the player managed to get them and then sell them? The monetary value of these seem a bit beyond the scope of the other players' rewards, and even if split could interfere a bit with the "street" feel of the game already. |
Don't forget that the monitary value is not the actual sum of money the characters are going to receive.
They will have sell the loot to a fence (core rules pages 237-238). Keeping these rules in mind they will get between 10 and 50 percent of the monitary value listed in the adventure, on average 30 percent. And don't forget, that the paydata and smart frames qualify as High-tech or Hot Loot, making it harder to find a buyer for it.
Additionally, it's gonna take time (base time 10 days to find a fence and arrange a meet) to sell the loot. Time, that could be used to do another run to earn some cash.
By the way: none of my players even had the idea to keep the smart frames ...
All it takes is one Connected e…
No edges or flaws! Brilliant. Yeah, that works.
~J
No edges or flaws! Brilliant. Yeah, that works.
~J
guys - if it has a Fence Value, that means that i have considered the ramifications of such...so sure, if the character manages to download the smart frame (remember that you have to have enough active memory to do so - programs are transferred into/out of active memory from offline storage) then they can certainly fence it. It is, for the most part, commercially available software that is sold to corporations - sometimes slightly customized for a certain company or system.
yes, it is a lot of money - but this also reflects that information and data are where the real money is at in Shadowrun...there is a small percentage of deckers out there that are good enough to get these files at Green level, and at higher levels, they NEED this extra loot to make up for the lower cost of the job if they are to break even.
keep in mind that the Fence Value is the maximum value that you are going to get - it is based on approx 20-25% as per Linei's post - so i've made it easier for GMs by calculating it before hand. this gives the GM the "ballpark" to know that is the max they should be able to get, barring a truly exceptional roll. you can certainly get less for it...otherwise, Linei is correct about locating the fence, etc...i've just precalculated the fence value...
lastly, i've posted elsewhere about sometimes getting "easter eggs" of higher money/karma values in the earlier adventures to help some characters get a "jump start"...
Oh, and don't forget you still need the CD Key to activate the smart frame once you've installed it - without that, it is basically worthless...
yes, it is a lot of money - but this also reflects that information and data are where the real money is at in Shadowrun...there is a small percentage of deckers out there that are good enough to get these files at Green level, and at higher levels, they NEED this extra loot to make up for the lower cost of the job if they are to break even.
keep in mind that the Fence Value is the maximum value that you are going to get - it is based on approx 20-25% as per Linei's post - so i've made it easier for GMs by calculating it before hand. this gives the GM the "ballpark" to know that is the max they should be able to get, barring a truly exceptional roll. you can certainly get less for it...otherwise, Linei is correct about locating the fence, etc...i've just precalculated the fence value...
lastly, i've posted elsewhere about sometimes getting "easter eggs" of higher money/karma values in the earlier adventures to help some characters get a "jump start"...
Oh, and don't forget you still need the CD Key to activate the smart frame once you've installed it - without that, it is basically worthless...
[ Spoiler ]
This has probably been asked a hundred times, but since I can't find it anywhere I'm gonna make it 101.
I get the impression that some of the missions will be run online. How do I get involved with these since I can't get to any of the RL events?
I get the impression that some of the missions will be run online. How do I get involved with these since I can't get to any of the RL events?
I have a few questions that I have not seen answered.
(doesn't mean they haven't been, just that I haven't seen them)
Seeing as how SRComp is not being used, I gather the standard Award system for good karma in a "moral" campaign is the norm. However, as was detailed in SRComp, different character "types" have vastly different needs as far as nuyen and karma. Example:
Mages and adepts are karma sinks(powerpoints, initiation, foci, spells, adept abilities, etc). Whereas riggers and deckers and sammies require very little karma, but cyberdecks, programs, and vehicles/drones are pricey. Not to mention Delta Grade Cyberware.
Have you/are you considering a more flexible award system to accommodate the different needs of the various character "types".
I the past I played in campaigns with a cash for karma/karma for cash rule and even amoral campaigns. They were very successful campaigns from the standpoint of character development. I understand that the goal is to get more people playing shadowrun and purchasing the materials. I also understand that "role playing" is more of the focus for the shadowrun missions. However, if long story arcs are to be developed (ala Survival of the Fittest) then character development is going to become important as well. Id vote for some form of cash for karma/karma for cash rule or a more flexible award system.
I frequently play awakened types and find it nearly impossible to get enough karma to do even 1 tenth of what I desire with them. This was especially true in Survival of the Fittest. Netting over a million nuyen is nice, but I played an Adept who had very little need for cash. As the party ran off to their respective contacts to purchase/upgrade with new toys/cyberware, my character took a little vacation, then sat in his apartment and waited for the next run. (he is not two dimensional by the way, he is actually very politically active. The gov't he worked for tried to eliminate him after a nasty run wherein he learned to much. He has some very well developed enemies and works against them whenever possible)
I understand you reserve the "right" to include any optional rules, I would strongly suggest doing so in regards to this issue. It may be one of the reason there are so few magic using types sitting at the table for these missions.
(doesn't mean they haven't been, just that I haven't seen them)
Seeing as how SRComp is not being used, I gather the standard Award system for good karma in a "moral" campaign is the norm. However, as was detailed in SRComp, different character "types" have vastly different needs as far as nuyen and karma. Example:
Mages and adepts are karma sinks(powerpoints, initiation, foci, spells, adept abilities, etc). Whereas riggers and deckers and sammies require very little karma, but cyberdecks, programs, and vehicles/drones are pricey. Not to mention Delta Grade Cyberware.
Have you/are you considering a more flexible award system to accommodate the different needs of the various character "types".
I the past I played in campaigns with a cash for karma/karma for cash rule and even amoral campaigns. They were very successful campaigns from the standpoint of character development. I understand that the goal is to get more people playing shadowrun and purchasing the materials. I also understand that "role playing" is more of the focus for the shadowrun missions. However, if long story arcs are to be developed (ala Survival of the Fittest) then character development is going to become important as well. Id vote for some form of cash for karma/karma for cash rule or a more flexible award system.
I frequently play awakened types and find it nearly impossible to get enough karma to do even 1 tenth of what I desire with them. This was especially true in Survival of the Fittest. Netting over a million nuyen is nice, but I played an Adept who had very little need for cash. As the party ran off to their respective contacts to purchase/upgrade with new toys/cyberware, my character took a little vacation, then sat in his apartment and waited for the next run. (he is not two dimensional by the way, he is actually very politically active. The gov't he worked for tried to eliminate him after a nasty run wherein he learned to much. He has some very well developed enemies and works against them whenever possible)
I understand you reserve the "right" to include any optional rules, I would strongly suggest doing so in regards to this issue. It may be one of the reason there are so few magic using types sitting at the table for these missions.
And here I am with a physical adept with a million starting cash looking at it and saying man I need more money go figure.
Just a thought but man wouldn't you just be deadly with a level what 3? 4? weapon focus for that million.
Just a thought but man wouldn't you just be deadly with a level what 3? 4? weapon focus for that million.
online games - yes - coming soon in November. I'm shooting for Veteran's Day weekend, and i'm firming up plans now. Plan to see some announcements soon.
Dr. Black - Well, I certainly understand your point. And you are correct about the campaign being a "moral" campaign. Right now, adventures are awarding a base (before RP awards) average of 3 points of Karma. When all is said and done, the overall average should be about 4.5 points of Karma. Note, however, that we've also drastically cut the monetary awards as well. We pay based on the level of the table. Higher levels command more pay. For this we use the payment bases from the SRComp.
With this said, there will be opportunities from time to time to earn an extra point of karma here or there. there will also be campaign level magic groups, which will make group initiation costs available and give you other benefits. and, in the future, there will be other special activities for mages to accomplish their goals.
keep in mind, however, that magic is supposed to be rare - and therefore there should not be that many magic types around. I'm actually pleased with the balance i'm seeing now. unlike VS, where I've actually seen a table of all magic active characters, SRM usually only has one mage or shaman at the table. adepts are a little more common. It certainly makes an adept that pays for astral perception more worthwhile, plus opens up some other opportunities...
Dr. Black - Well, I certainly understand your point. And you are correct about the campaign being a "moral" campaign. Right now, adventures are awarding a base (before RP awards) average of 3 points of Karma. When all is said and done, the overall average should be about 4.5 points of Karma. Note, however, that we've also drastically cut the monetary awards as well. We pay based on the level of the table. Higher levels command more pay. For this we use the payment bases from the SRComp.
With this said, there will be opportunities from time to time to earn an extra point of karma here or there. there will also be campaign level magic groups, which will make group initiation costs available and give you other benefits. and, in the future, there will be other special activities for mages to accomplish their goals.
keep in mind, however, that magic is supposed to be rare - and therefore there should not be that many magic types around. I'm actually pleased with the balance i'm seeing now. unlike VS, where I've actually seen a table of all magic active characters, SRM usually only has one mage or shaman at the table. adepts are a little more common. It certainly makes an adept that pays for astral perception more worthwhile, plus opens up some other opportunities...
What sort of details for online games do are you going to provide? I am curious as it seems that I'm the only one who's interested in running SRM (as home play) in my area.
| QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F.) |
| And here I am with a physical adept with a million starting cash looking at it and saying man I need more money go figure. Just a thought but man wouldn't you just be deadly with a level what 3? 4? weapon focus for that million. |
How are you bonding that weapon focus as a starting character? A level 4 weapon focus with +1 reach requires 16 karma. Thats around 4 missions before you can bond it. Besides, a gun beats melee combat most of the time.
BTW, my adept used no weapons. All hand to hand+distance strike+silent attack. Character concept was an adept assassin/infiltrator. High stealth, hand to hand, abilities... Basically a big karma sink. Really didnt need much money.
I got Fox as a contact from mission briefing. During Double Cross, I said I would like to spend time with Fox getting to know him better, talking with him, and doing other social things. My GM didn't know if I was allowed to have Fox as a level two contact after that. Should I get Fox as a level two contact, and if not how can I?
-UPTD
-UPTD
First of all, keep in mind that Fox is actually rather "hands off" when it comes to runners. Go and read the fiction piece on the main website under the World View section to see how Fox handles runners. From that, you should be able to conclude that it will be very difficult to make a stronger connection with Fox. You're gonna have to really REALLY shine for Fox to go out on a limb for you.
Also, elevating a contact from level to level takes more than just some time between adventures. It involves a lot more. Yes, time helps, as does roleplaying the relationship. It may be possible in the future to do so, but i would say that at this stage in your career, if Fox is nice to you, he needs something from you.
Also, elevating a contact from level to level takes more than just some time between adventures. It involves a lot more. Yes, time helps, as does roleplaying the relationship. It may be possible in the future to do so, but i would say that at this stage in your career, if Fox is nice to you, he needs something from you.
One more thing. Why doesn't finger have A.R. B/R? Its kinda bugging me that most corps use Assault Rifles, and he dosent have the skill to make them.
-UPTD
-UPTD
Maybe he has a pathological fear of Assault Rifles stemming from the childhood trauma of seeing his favorite grandmother's cat being brutally assassinated by 32 go-gangers all firing Ares Alpha Combat Guns on full auto.
Seems to me that corps would use SMGs more. The nice ones that scream "professional", not the cheap ones.
~J
~J
DocWagon HTR uses assault rifles, I assume Ares would have Ares Alpha's handy. Renraku has whatever they want. Aztechnology has assault rifles handy. I can see how the standard gaurd would have an SMG, but most corps still use assault rifles for anything other than the standard gaurd.
I really doubt most guards would have grenade launchers. Keep in mind that it's mostly the corp's stuff that's gonna get blown up if they get used.
~J
~J
That thought points to the use of semi-auto or burst-fire battle rifles rather than SMGs or assault rifles - collateral damage.
The important thing for a writer is, do we go for exciting (lotsa bullets, most will miss) or effective and low-collateral-damage (few bullets, but each is effective)?
SR normally goes for the lotsa bullets, as it's based (as far as I can see) on USA Army doctrine: drown them in flying bullets, 'cos we don't train the grunts for marksmanship.
But I'd rather face a bunch of guys with SMGs or assault rifles than a pair of guys with battle rifles, especially if they have APDS ammo - which they will... Of course, the PCs won't last as long, so it's better to be nice and try and drown them in metal.
But to the question; a corp should be using, by preference, the SMG or AR they make themselves. Elite units will use the best gear they can find. Be wary of theYamatetsu troll using a Barrett as a battle rifle...
The important thing for a writer is, do we go for exciting (lotsa bullets, most will miss) or effective and low-collateral-damage (few bullets, but each is effective)?
SR normally goes for the lotsa bullets, as it's based (as far as I can see) on USA Army doctrine: drown them in flying bullets, 'cos we don't train the grunts for marksmanship.
But I'd rather face a bunch of guys with SMGs or assault rifles than a pair of guys with battle rifles, especially if they have APDS ammo - which they will... Of course, the PCs won't last as long, so it's better to be nice and try and drown them in metal.
But to the question; a corp should be using, by preference, the SMG or AR they make themselves. Elite units will use the best gear they can find. Be wary of theYamatetsu troll using a Barrett as a battle rifle...
| QUOTE (bitrunner @ Oct 5 2004, 01:03 PM) |
| Dr. Black - Well, I certainly understand your point. And you are correct about the campaign being a "moral" campaign. Right now, adventures are awarding a base (before RP awards) average of 3 points of Karma. When all is said and done, the overall average should be about 4.5 points of Karma. Note, however, that we've also drastically cut the monetary awards as well. We pay based on the level of the table. Higher levels command more pay. For this we use the payment bases from the SRComp. With this said, there will be opportunities from time to time to earn an extra point of karma here or there. there will also be campaign level magic groups, which will make group initiation costs available and give you other benefits. and, in the future, there will be other special activities for mages to accomplish their goals. |
Bitrunner, are you including the main rulebook suggestions for Karma for clever or very appropriate skill use, humour/drama, clever ideas and the rest of it, in your 4.5 average concept? If one uses the actual Shadowrun rules, it is quite possible to earn more Karma from the actual roleplaying than from the mission base amount.
I don't think that there's anything wrong with a "moral" campaign, so it's good to hear you've gone that way. For those who like darker or edgier teams, it is always possible to RP it that you are taking the softer path in the interest of being professionally "ghostlike"-- low signature and imprint, to lengthen your lifespan in the shadows. Noisy and bloody groups can be traced and squashed a lot more easily, on the average.
Any ETA on some of those magical developments? I'm likely to go with a Shaman.
yes - i'm saying that the adventures say in them that the GM can award up to 3 points of additional Karma to individuals after the adventure's team award is given.
what i DON'T want to happen is to have these 3 points given out automatically, which was a problem i saw frequently in Virtual Seattle. Karma was handed out like candy, and so players, on average, were earning between 7 and 10 points of Karma PER ADVENTURE!!!
your point about being "professional and ghostlike" are spot on...that is how i play and write shadowrun...
what i DON'T want to happen is to have these 3 points given out automatically, which was a problem i saw frequently in Virtual Seattle. Karma was handed out like candy, and so players, on average, were earning between 7 and 10 points of Karma PER ADVENTURE!!!
your point about being "professional and ghostlike" are spot on...that is how i play and write shadowrun...
Thanks for the answers-- incidentally, there are a few questions in the "Play..." and "Advanced Rules" threads, also.
| QUOTE (bitrunner) |
| yes - i'm saying that the adventures say in them that the GM can award up to 3 points of additional Karma to individuals after the adventure's team award is given. what i DON'T want to happen is to have these 3 points given out automatically, which was a problem i saw frequently in Virtual Seattle. Karma was handed out like candy, and so players, on average, were earning between 7 and 10 points of Karma PER ADVENTURE!!! your point about being "professional and ghostlike" are spot on...that is how i play and write shadowrun... |
General blather post follows.
(Reminiscence and philosophy-- all readers feel free to ignore, no real questions or recommendations for the current system.)Well, don't know how it went in the last few years of VS, but I know that when we created and edited it, scenarios had very clear guidelines as to how runners could both gain and *lose* Karma, both for mission and personal objectives.
We used the Karma awards recommendations straight out of the rulebooks. With that system, one could get more than 3 personal Karma, but it was very rare.
Likewise, when you set maxima for loot available (to allow really clever groups to feel that their actions have some effect on results), some Refs will presume that they must try to give away all they can-- that was also in the days of players rating their GMs, and a lot of GMs got concerned about greedy players rating them poorly. Thank goodness that kind of rating isn't there anymore, though convention games sure could use some way of watching quality control.
Of course, what we did hear of, a lot, was that people would D/L scenarios for game day or home play style events and essentially run them for buddies and max out the awards. There's absolutely no way to control that sort of thing without individual scrutiny of events, which is just insane. For the first two to three years, most players just shrugged and said, "Well, if that's how they want to play it, who cares? My runner earned his or her stuff."
The two possible responses are: (1) nerf the Karma awards for everyone and (2) recognise that there will always be cheese and write and run it for the better players, ignoring the others.
Honour system works just fine if one simply disregards munchkinned characters as being of any real worth. It's when the "good" players object to the munchkinned character having all those skill levels or whatever, that the whole control issue arises.
So, simply capping the Karma awards lower will mean slower growth, which is just fine IMO. However, the munchkin groups will still always get max Karma, and it would be sad if a Ref decided that he had to down-rate a good group because the "average Karma awards" for a scenario had been too high. I am sure that the present system has guidelines to avoid that outcome.
Also, of course, the random mix of runners at a table will mean that scenarios that have an absolute requirement for a certain type of runner-- say, a decker, for example-- may exclude certain mixes from "complete success". That isn't the fault of the players; it's a reality of mixed convention groups. Again, I am sure that the SRM writers are cautioned to allow variable paths to success and to have alternatives, as much as is possible within the constraints of space and time.
Philosophically, it essentially boils down to interpretation. One can set up a flexible system with the best of intentions, and watch it being abused by some, or one can ignore the abuse and still set it up with the good roleplayers and honest players in mind. And, of course, usually one tries for something in the middle.
My own hope is that the pendulum swing in "living" systems will stabilize somewhere between assuming all players and GMs are honest (perhaps too naive, though I still err in that direction) and assuming that they are all munchkins (which would make me quit playing massive multiplayer roleplaying campaigns).
| QUOTE (Donner) |
| Well, don't know how it went in the last few years of VS, but I know that when we created and edited it, scenarios had very clear guidelines as to how runners could both gain and *lose* Karma, both for mission and personal objectives. |
At the tail end of VS, the adventures still had, just like published ones, a chart at the end detailing the karma awards for mission objectives. The problem was, most of the adventures had MISSION Karma awards of at LEAST 5 points. Some were up in the 7-9 range, and we had one that had 11 Karma just for Mission rewards. As much as I wanted to cut the system, some of these were under my predecessor (i was origianally just the editor) and by the time i took over, the damage had been done - at the very end, with VS 2.0, we tried to scale back the Karma to something more reasonable, and the players were warned beforehand.
| QUOTE |
| We used the Karma awards recommendations straight out of the rulebooks. With that system, one could get more than 3 personal Karma, but it was very rare. |
Yes, we used that as well...we still do now, but i'm setting a definite cap at 3 points. The worry i have is that I've seen some GMs award this 3 karma to everyone at the end just because they did a good job. Now, i've walked around and observed the tables, and i see some people that get into the role playing, talk in character, etc. awarding someone like that an extra point is fine. but if everyone is sitting like a bump on a log, and they happen to finish the mission, why should they get the "extra" personal karma?? it is there to reward OUTSTANDING participation by the INDIVIDUAL. if EVERYONE at the table gets it, it reduces the "special-ness" of the award.
| QUOTE |
| Likewise, when you set maxima for loot available (to allow really clever groups to feel that their actions have some effect on results), some Refs will presume that they must try to give away all they can-- that was also in the days of players rating their GMs, and a lot of GMs got concerned about greedy players rating them poorly. Thank goodness that kind of rating isn't there anymore, though convention games sure could use some way of watching quality control. |
Yeah, this is a problem...and there was not much to do about it...until now. first, we (the small pack of writers and brainstormers from VS) decided that artificially capping the rewards for "loot" was not the way to go. first off, we'll (eventually) be working in the Reputation system from MJLBB. if people are just grabbing "loot", they're going to take a hit on their reputation - "looting" is not what shadowrunners do - unless that happens to be the mission. Looting is what criminals do. I understand that if the group is on a mission, and there is a new Novatech cyberdeck sitting there, that a decker is gonna be tempted to swipe it. We also have to encourage the players to understand the world setting. The karma/nuyen payoff is dependent upon the level of the character. Low level characters (those with low overall Good Karma) have little or no reputation and therefore cannot command high mission payoffs. Those that have advanced will be able to demand higher pay. We want to acheive that balance where the player can maintain a Middle lifestyle and still progress based on their goals. Some missions may have less karma - these will be ones where the nuyen is probably going to be higher. Others might have a lot of Karma, but low nuyen rewards - like a favor type run. "Hey, It's hard work!"
| QUOTE |
| Of course, what we did hear of, a lot, was that people would D/L scenarios for game day or home play style events and essentially run them for buddies and max out the awards. There's absolutely no way to control that sort of thing without individual scrutiny of events, which is just insane. For the first two to three years, most players just shrugged and said, "Well, if that's how they want to play it, who cares? My runner earned his or her stuff." |
Yep - thankfully, though, I think we're past that stage. Also remember that a good deal of the players at that time were also into the other Living campaigns and had developed a certain mindset. However, there is always GM balance. If a player shows up with conspicuous equipment, the GM can just respond in kind. Also, the mission log sheets serve, i think, to curb a lot of the excesses present in the system. all in all, i'd rather have a larger player base where everyone has fun than to curtail our player base and not grow and become insular.
| QUOTE |
| So, simply capping the Karma awards lower will mean slower growth, which is just fine IMO. However, the munchkin groups will still always get max Karma, and it would be sad if a Ref decided that he had to down-rate a good group because the "average Karma awards" for a scenario had been too high. I am sure that the present system has guidelines to avoid that outcome. |
Slower progression is indeed the goal here. And hopefully the Reputation system (when implemented) will help a lot - got a player that is being disorderly or unprofessional? smack him down with a couple of points of bad rep. there should be no reason to "down-rate" a group. they either earn the mission based team karma or they don't. strangely enough, i've had tables where the players have failed the mission and earned no team karma, and they didn't argue. they were sad to have not completed the mission, but took it for a learning experience. a very healthy and adult attitude i must say.
| QUOTE |
| Also, of course, the random mix of runners at a table will mean that scenarios that have an absolute requirement for a certain type of runner-- say, a decker, for example-- may exclude certain mixes from "complete success". That isn't the fault of the players; it's a reality of mixed convention groups. Again, I am sure that the SRM writers are cautioned to allow variable paths to success and to have alternatives, as much as is possible within the constraints of space and time. |
absolute requirements? not gonna happen...the adventures are written so that yes, if you have a decker (for instance), this or that mission may be easier or will present more options or opportunities, but we will not put something out there that is impossible to do without a mage/decker/rigger/etc. we are working on one now, for instance, that does require a mage - if the team doesn't have one, an NPC is sent along with the party. since SRM adventures, for the most part, begin with each individual runner getting a call to assemble prior to the mission, the characters will not know the difference - only the PLAYERS will know he is an NPC under control of the GM. We definitely try to make adventures, where possible, non linear, non lead-by-the-nose, and with as many options for the runners as possible. Mission Briefing, which you've seen, is a prime example of what we are aiming for structure-wise.
| QUOTE |
| My own hope is that the pendulum swing in "living" systems will stabilize somewhere between assuming all players and GMs are honest (perhaps too naive, though I still err in that direction) and assuming that they are all munchkins (which would make me quit playing massive multiplayer roleplaying campaigns). |
I think we've made some strides with SRM that a lot of the other "living" campaigns haven't done yet, and i'm sure that there are some things out there for us to still work on. it will definitely be an interesting journey!
Runners are criminals, pure and simple.
Also, how big were the personal rewards, and what were the runs? 5 doesn’t seem unreasonable at all for a base, though 9 is somewhat high.
~J
Also, how big were the personal rewards, and what were the runs? 5 doesn’t seem unreasonable at all for a base, though 9 is somewhat high.
~J
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